Hunting loads for old 1892 38WCF. How warm?

[cas]

I've had an 1892 in 38WCF for a number of years now and have often thought about bringing it deer hunting. My questions center around appropriate loads for it. It was made in 1904, and has a barrel like a sewer pipe. It won't shoot hard cast worth a darn. Soft alloy with some powder puff loads shoot fairly well though, or at least well enough. I wouldn't hunt with them though.

Since the gun was just an occasional plinker, the light load was good enough and I never bothered trying anything else.

Now loads aside, because of the bore the gun may just not shoot JHP's. But assuming it will, I'm wondering just how warm I can make them? (I have "Ruger only" loads for my Buckeye that are in the mid 1400s fps wise from the 7" barrel, but I've always been careful to keep them away from the old gun. I wouldn't use them. lol)

Anyone got any input as to what to feed this 109 year old that'd be more potent than the put-put loads, but not cause any undo harm?

[3leggedturtle]

Check out the RL7 load that Alliant shows in their handout for the 38/40. A few others will be along shortly with more info. 3leg

[Mike Armstrong]

Have a look at the .38-40 for rifles chapter in Ken Waters' "Pet Loads."

I killed two whitetails (neither real large--forkhorn meat buck and big dry doe) with my own .38-40, an original Winchester 1885 single shot. For one, I used a stiff handload of Trail Boss under a .40 S&W 180 gr. hollow point. Bullet was expanded to about .50 cal; ended up under the skin in the off shoulder on a slight quartering shot.

Used a Black Hills smokeless "Cowboy Load" on the other because I was out bird hunting, saw the doe coming toward my car, and had only the target loads along with me in the trunk, so that's what I used. Range about 50 yards in both cases. It will "do" a deer.

[AJMD429]

I have a slightly older 32-20 with similar bore, and the best accuracy I get is with 'mild' loads using jacketed bullets. I really have only shot a few 'medium-hot' loads in it, but as I have another modern-steel one I use it for that stuff. No need really. If I wanted to hunt something tougher than a mild load would handle, I'd use a different gun/cartridge.

It is always "about shot placement, first and foremost", then next "proper bullet construction" for that game and whatever velocity you will be using. Lastly is the 'warm' factor - it does make for a flatter trajectory (making 'proper shot placement' easier) and of course more energy if that it truly needed.

[OldWin]

Usually these old rifles love between 8-9gr. of Unique. I have several in 38WCF and 44WCF and use this load a lot. The 38's almost always will outshoot the 44's.
Don't get too hung up on the velocity. If you can put them where you need to within the range of effectiveness you will make meat. I've shot more than one deer with these loads and if you don't hit major bone you will get complete penetration in many cases. They killed a lot of stuff with these old rifles for many years. Just pick your shot and put it in the boiler room.
You will also find if you shoot it a lot before hunting with it your confidence will go way up. Try shooting stuff other than targets and see what it does. The 38WCF is one of my favorite cartridges.

[EdinCT]

I have shot deer with pulled soft points from old factory rounds over enough imr4227 to drive it around 1650 fps and it was very effective. The men I knew who used it at 1300 fps told me they had no issues killing deer or black bear with those. In the book 50 years a hunter and trapper sold by Fur Fish and Game Magazine Mr. Woodcock the author states several places his 73 Winchester in 38 wcf never let him down and he preferred black powder loads because they were cheaper!
I think a load that drove a XTP hp at 1400 would be has effective has a 41 mag pistol and not many would say the 41 is too light for hunting.

[jdad]

15-17gr of 2400 on top of a 180gr RNFP

[Sixgun]

I have shot deer with pulled soft points from old factory rounds over enough imr4227 to drive it around 1650 fps and it was very effective. The men I knew who used it at 1300 fps told me they had no issues killing deer or black bear with those. In the book 50 years a hunter and trapper sold by Fur Fish and Game Magazine Mr. Woodcock the author states several places his 73 Winchester in 38 wcf never let him down and he preferred black powder loads because they were cheaper!
I think a load that drove a XTP hp at 1400 would be has effective has a 41 mag pistol and not many would say the 41 is too light for hunting.

Yo Cas,
Edin saved me a lot of typing. Any good 40 or 10mm jacketed bullet will work. Just watch your max OAL and use a Lee fcd if the crimp groove does not line up. 1.575-1.60 has always worked for me in many different 38-40's------------Sixgun

[cas]

I have some 180 & 200 gr XTP's, i can add a cannelure like I do for the pistol, but based on how poorly (or at least erratically) it shoots hard cast, I have a feeling it may not shoot them worth a darn. What it does with hard cast is it'll shoot 3 or 4 in a "group" and the 5th will miss by 6 feet.


I have some mid hardness "cowboy cast" that whozamacallit used to sell before they went out of business, it shoots well enough, but I don't know how fast I can push them with tha barrel. The "pits" in the barrel are more like potholes. I didn't know the bore was tha bad when I bought it 11-12 years ago, but I only paid $300 for it so I guess I can't complain. Of course I bought it from a guy who paid $200 just a couple days before.

[Sixgun]

CAS,
I gave it some thought and after fooling with several hundred guns with bores of varying condition, I have come to the conclusion that's its the rare thing for any condition barrel NOT to give hunting accuracy.

With the pits and all you still should get acceptable accuracy AS LONG AS THE CROWN IS GOOD. The gun will foul more and probably lead more but I see no reason why you can't get good accuracy for 50 rounds before a cleaning is necessary.

If the bore was that bad, you would not get any kind of accuracy as you stated you will get several in a group and then a flyer. Bad flyers are almost always caused by bad crowns.

This is what you can do.

In one 1886 I have, it used to have a gouged out crown. Someone actually filed an octagon shape INSIDE the bore for about a quarter inch. I had a smith chuck the whole action in a lathe and he (without cutting off any of the barrel) rounded off the bore for about a half inch, leaving the rifling crisp at the end. So.....I now have about 1/2" of free bore at the muzzle, and that baby shoots! I have since logged several thousand out of it and no one handling the rifle ever picked it out.

If you need some bullets to test, I can send you some in .401 or .403 but you will need a Lee FCD as my bullets are all cast from a 40 S&W mould and therefore have no crimp groove........--------6