Another camp defense long gun question?????

[Bronco]

Howdy All,

Nother question about a camp defense long gun. Bear country, up close stuff. 12 gauge 3" slugs repeater, pump or auto, or... 45-70 repeater.
I know one is not a lever but hope that does not weigh too much in your response.
Thanks in advance!

John

[Mescalero]

Here we go!

[Blaine]

Whichever one you shoot the best and you feel is the most reliable....Only you know that answer. It would be advisable to adhere to good camp discipline about keeping food, and such in containers that they cannot smell, and properly dispose of garbage.

[sore shoulder]

M2

[vancelw]

I don't have much bear country experience, but I'd opt for the 12 ga pump if the only purpose for the gun was bear and human rat defense.
I don't want to have to rely on the auto functioning properly and the pump lets me stay on target better than a lever. Your experience my vary.

I would NOT use a crossbow

[sore shoulder]

When I'm up in Grizzly country I carry a 45-70 guide gun loaded with 560gr cast. That's my personal choice. I've heard of people using 12ga slug guns. I recall one article written by a guy up in AK who kept a Striker for camp duty. He told a story of how several Grizzly sows had attacked his hunting camp where he had several animals he had taken already.

[Mescalero]

Does anyone here among us have experience with the rifled shotgun barrels from E.R. Shaw, Hastings,
etc.?

[Grizz]

Bronco, in Alaska I am OK with the 12ga PROVIDED THAT I use proven hard cast slugs, not the soft lead that looks like a crosman pellet or any other hollow skirt gizmo. Look up the penetration tests, they come unglued on contact. Not how you want to titillate a bear.

Do your own penetration tests and compare to a known good projectile for a benchmark. I load 525 gr hard cast for my guide gun and know how that will perform. I will experiment with putting that slug into a shotgun sabot. Traveling thru certain countries a shotgun will get you a wink while something else might get you a cell. Not that kind of cell...

Do you have one or both already, or you in the decision matrix? Will there be a SD use at home or a hunting use?

How does that factor in?

Best

Grizz

[tman]

Both.

[jnyork]

Here we go!

Anyone make popcorn yet?

[MrMurphy]

Every Alaskan I've known has sworn by 12 gauge pump loaded with Brenneke slugs.

But most of them are perfectly fine with .45-70 too. Shotguns are cheaper and more common, thus the popular answer.

[gamekeeper]

I thought when shooting bears the gun with the smallest front sight was the one to pick..

[3leggedturtle]

I thought when shooting bears the gun with the smallest front sight was the one to pick..

NO most bears would rather slap and bite, than shove a gun up there.

Grizz and SS would like to hear more about your 45/70 loads.


I would use my '95 with 350 or 405 gr boolits at 1600fps.

[jeepnik]

I thought when shooting bears the gun with the smallest front sight was the one to pick..

NO most bears would rather slap and bite, than shove a gun up there.

Grizz and SS would like to hear more about your 45/70 loads.


I would use my '95 with 350 or 405 gr boolits at 1600fps.

If you want some good bear bullets that you'll only use if and when, then take a look at what Buffalo Bore and Garrett have to offer. Even if you reload, as I do, it's not worth working up a "bear" round. I'd likely never use it, so over the counter stuff is easier to obtain, and a one or two time only cost.

[sore shoulder]

Turtle, I'm neither of those people, but I use a Lyman borerider design that is cast by Mt Baldy bullets out of Cody WY. That bullet has been used successfully on brown bear in AK by others. I load it to 1450 fps from an 18" barrel. I could go faster but I cannot discover a good reason to, I'm perfectly happy with it at that velocity and I know those loads will function reliably in my rifle roll crimped in front of the first driving band. Velocities compare with Garrett and BB.

[hfcable]

[quote="MrMurphy"]Every Alaskan I've known has sworn by 12 gauge pump loaded with Brenneke slugs.

But most of them are perfectly fine with .45-70 too. Shotguns are cheaper and more common, thus the popular answer.[/quote

brenneke slugs or better yet the old BRI slugs work well; there are lots of other slugs that are not so good, but personally i am a lot more comfortable, faster, and more confident with my 45/70 ..... gives me longer range if needed too.

[Blaine]

*disclaimer* I have no bear experience!!

I can't imagine a bear not dropping to one of Grizz's 500+ grain loads....and, they don't really recoil that bad..... manageable from my BFR when I had it....12 ++ water filled gallon milk jugs of penetration.....Actually, I would trust most any 45-70 load of 400+ grains to do the job....

[AJMD429]

I recall one article written by a guy up in AK who kept a Striker for camp duty.

Either model would do. . .

[tman]

Factory loaded 220 grain 30-06 ammo has killed everything on the planet for over 100 years. And The shooter behind the sights lived to tell the stories.

[Grizz]

3leg...,

I use the beartoothbullet 525 gr piledriver in my 45/70. I use wlr primers in starline brass and H322 for a very moderate load. It ran about 1310 from Blaine's BFR, about 1440 I think from the 18" guide guns, something faster from the Marlin Cowboy and something a little faster but still in the 1500s from the 32" single shot.

From the guide gun it does this:

http://beartoothbullets.com/WMV_Files/45-70-525.wmv

The heavy bullet will fully penetrate an entire bear regardless of the bones encountered. It makes a cns shot available from any angle. And the bullet does not deform or self destruct. You can make your ammo the functional equivilant of Buffalo Bore and Garrett's loads.

A 12ga slug makes similar velocities, and has the similar need to stand up to the crunch without deforming or quitting too soon.

Dixie slugs makes 12ga ammo that is truly dangerous game qualified:

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

scroll to the bottom item.

The 30-06, while it has "taken" everything that walks, is not in the same league as the big bore hard cast loads I am referring to. Stopping a dangerous animal is not the same thing as killing one that is not trying to kill you. Hold a 30-30 bullet up to the Dixie dangerous game slug to get an idea. It's kind of like comparing a mo-ped to a freight train....

[3leggedturtle]

SS and Grizz, thanks or the info. I eventually want to make loads like that up, just for the experience of them. I saw quite a few Grizzly with cubs going up thru Canada and Alaska last year, hope I never have to face one in a situation other than snapping a quick pic.

[Mescalero]

When you went through Canada, were you allowed a long gun for defense?

[3leggedturtle]

When you went through Canada, were you allowed a long gun for defense?

But only for bears not 2 leg varmints. They wanted $120 for the privilege, so I passed and got bear spray in Whitehorse.

[sore shoulder]

SS and Grizz, thanks or the info. I eventually want to make loads like that up, just for the experience of them. I saw quite a few Grizzly with cubs going up thru Canada and Alaska last year, hope I never have to face one in a situation other than snapping a quick pic.

I think we all feel that way. I met one of Malamutes neighbors who was mauled by a Grizzly sow a couple years ago. He put her down with a .41 mag pistol, but required pretty severe reconstructive surgery on his face afterward, in addition to broken ribs etc, was hospitalized for quite a while. She got him in 6' tall sagebrush. I decided I'm not hiking in tall sagebrush after that. I've been in some thick aspen stands known to have Grizzly, and I was carrying a .480 pistol, a 45-70 and there were 3 dogs and a similarly armed friend and I still felt a bit nervous.

[pokey]

or.......

bearvsman.JPG

[Mescalero]

I have always wanted to make that trip.
I would pay the 120.00 and abide by thier rules.

[awp101]

M2

A Lahti 20mm is my go-to for bear defense.

Actually, a .22LR may be the best best:

What is the smallest caliber you trust to protect yourself?
The Beretta Jetfire
While out hiking in Alberta Canada with my husband we were surprised by a huge grizzly bear charging at us from out of no where. She must have been protecting her cubs because she was extremely aggressive. If I had not had my little Beretta Jetfire with me I would not be here today!

Just one shot to my husband's knee cap was all it took……the bear got him and I was able to escape by just walking away at a brisk pace.

It's one of the best pistols in my collection……...

[Lastmohecken]

I might choose a 45/70 leveraction with heavy handloads. But I still want a stout handgun on my person, just in case I somehow end up with out a long gun in my hands at the wrong time.

[hfcable]

I might choose a 45/70 leveraction with heavy handloads. But I still want a stout handgun on my person, just in case I somehow end up with out a long gun in my hands at the wrong time.

absolutely!! that is the plan i ALWAYS use.

[Grizz]

I might choose a 45/70 leveraction with heavy handloads. But I still want a stout handgun on my person, just in case I somehow end up with out a long gun in my hands at the wrong time.

absolutely!! that is the plan i ALWAYS use.

ditto. I carry a 44 redhawk crossdraw in a simply rugged holster. the idea is that I might be able to access the gun regardless which arm is in the bear's mouth.. I switched to the DA redhawk from the SA sbh because I wanted to make the firing process easier, you know, if the gun is jammed into an 800 pound fur ball...

all theoretical, I have not been jumped by a bear, but I have been made pretty jumpy by them. I have had them rummaging around under my house and banging into pilings hard enough to shake it. making me a little jumpy...

[mikld]

Another question to determine the type of action (pump, bolt, lever, semi-auto) is how calm can you be facing a charging bear? My best choice would be another feller with a BIG bore and I'm runnin'.

[piller]

Not having been there or done that, I can only assume that I would take my Guide Gun which I am familiar with and can shoot as well as I shoot anything I have. I think I would take the 405 grain +P loads I have from Grizzly Cartridge Corporation. They have Hawk bullets in them and those loads did a good job on a big Wildebeest for me. 4 feet of penetration, some expansion, great weight retention, and several bones broken. Does anyone think that setup would be a bad idea? If so, why?

I also have a .480 Ruger SRH and would probably have that in a holster on my belt.

[Bronco]

Howdy All,

Thanks for the input.
Lot of good information given and helped a lot. Not a hunting trip just a couple of months next year drivng around with my trailer and dogs. Might be a little over spooked but wanted to be able to respond appropriately if the situation arises

Got a great load for my Redhawk 44, 250 gr. Sierra full profile jacketed at 1500. I'm used to shooting that load. Got a 47-70 Browning SRC and shotgun that I'm waffling between.

I've been in contact with the RCMP about transportation of a long gun and hand gun. Forms are available to transport through Canada,
Long guns are pretty easy with a few not allowed, AR's, M1A and such. Ruger Redhawk 7 1/2" barrel allowed with another separate form from the long gun with additional fee. Semi hand guns get to be tricky but that did not factor in my trip. All hand guns though must have a barrel longer that 4".

Thanks Again
John

[Mescalero]

That's cool on the handgun thing.

[Grizz]

Piller,

With your bullet choice I'd say you have got a good setup. I'd trust it after I had done penetration tests. Your wildebeast is a great indicator. My backup 44 load is another of Marshall's bullets at 405gr and it has outstanding penetration characteristics.

Did you watch the penetration video I posted of the 525gr bullet? I did a similar test with a Garrett 420 gr I believe, right around that weight, and a 425 gr beartooth "piledriverjr" from Marshall. Same exact nose profile with a lot more powder room. Ran it to 1963 fps and got 7 or 8 jugs penetration with both those loads, v.s. 12 jugs with the 525. The 525 has a lot less recoil. Do you remember the number Blaine?

I know that shooting water is not the same as stopping charging animals and don't intend to imply that. What the water does is tell me how tough the bullets are, how much momentum they have, which is what creates penetration, and how they compare among themselves, and if the twist rate is stabilizing the bullets. I also shoot firewood and recover the bullets that stop. Marshall's always remain intact. Some disintigrate as they progress through the wood. Those are the ones I don't carry.

I don't mean to sound strident and contentious about this. Everyone has their favorites and and their own comfort levels. I am not gainsaying anyone's solutions. I don't think my experience or experiments carry any weight outside my own tribe. And I wonder about that sometimes....

If I had a point to make it would be that it's better to do your (plural) own experiments and find out first hand what you'all might expect out of any load you plan to carry. It is occasionally a life-and-death issue, and not every anomaly can be replicated by every shooter. Just because someone killed a bear in a tent with a 22, (she did), doesn't make the 22 a great choice for killing killer bears.

And one more: there are LOTS of experts who are certain that the 45/70 is worthless as a dangerous game rifle and will reel off the names of the ONLY TWO rifles that can reliably stop dangerous game. I have no argument.

[sore shoulder]

Grizz, I thought that DG claim against the 45-70 was over a long time ago? I recall a few lively threads on Accurate Reloading that were cross posted over here. There several elitists looking down on the 45-70 pretty hard over there.

I've also got a Redhawk 44mag on the short list this year to finally replace the .480 I sold. I carry the 10mm with heavy loads for now when I'm up north, but until I get a nice long slide conversion that's proven reliable I want something I know will work, and I will be using those 405's like yours. That's what I used in the .480 and really liked how they shot.

[Grizz]

You know I don't know if that argument will ever be over. There's an expert on another forum whose experience guarantees that the 45/70 is inadequate. And states his own vast experience as the certification.

I encourage everyone to do their own due diligence and find out what they can live with. A lot of guys aren't scared of bears and are sure that they can handle every thing that comes their way. Some guys are thrilled at being hunted.

I was in SE last summer and talking to a guy who lives across the tide flats a hundred yards from the salmon creek that is 50 yards from my door. He was walking home at dusk, crossed the bridge and heard the 'woof' as a big sow that he couldn't see bolted toward him. He happened to be a few feet from the only house in the vicinity and hurled himself through the front door to escape the bear. The bear stopped and turned at the porch.

I was carrying my pistol grip 12 ga every time I went anywhere near the creek and the flats. When people asked me why I carry a shotgun around I just tell them that I can't outrun Keith.

Other people inform me that they never carry a gun and that the bears won't hurt you. But maybe they CAN outrun Keith. Though I doubt it.

Grizz

[sore shoulder]

In my opinion, being scared of bears is a very healthy thing. It won't prevent me from entering their habitat, but it will sure make me careful.

[jeepnik]

I might choose a 45/70 leveraction with heavy handloads. But I still want a stout handgun on my person, just in case I somehow end up with out a long gun in my hands at the wrong time.

Something I've always advised as well. Long guns may be more potent, but when it's fifteen feet away... Though I prefer my .45 colt Blackhawk with heavy, hardcast hand loads.

[sore shoulder]

Grizz, last time I was up at Malamutes I carried a pgrip 12ga often to make the walk to his cabin, I called it the big pistol lol, used it when I didnt feel like changing from running pants pants to something that let me carry a pistol, my 12 ga has a sling.

That also led me to thinking about shoulder holsters, and I'm ordering one soon.

[Grizz]

sri I missed this one Frank. I have a two pistol grips on my 500 sometimes. bery bery handi .

I should get a laser for the mag plug so there's no guess work. I tried shooting clays with it one time and missed them all.

[BigSky56]

It doesnt take a magnum to drop a brn bear have seen, saw the carcasses, them dropped with a 22, 410 and 30-30 up close shots. There is a difference between wild bears and habituated bears most of our problems around here come from the latter they are nuisance bears from yellowstone, glacier or the swan area that get transplanted here they were pestering people there and they tend to do that when they get here. we do have our run ins with regular ornery bears here, a guy I rope with had to drop a big sow with cubs 2 years ago that he ran into mulie hunting she saw him at 50 yds and came at him like a freight train at 25 yds he went for her nose and hit her on top the neck infront of the hump one shot with a 7 mm. Dont let the hype get you spun up its the SHOOTER not the gun. theres 2 kind of bears than can give you a sour stomach a sow with cubs and any grizzly forted up on a carcass. My preference is a 30-30 carbine open sights with hard cast bullets for a rifle and hard cast bullets in a 357 pistol, the statue of limitations goes back to 1973 for the ESA savvy. Bears have personalities just like people do if you can read people you can read bears if you cant read people or bears life's can be tough on the frontier. danny

Ive seen this bear in my hay fields and when hunting been within 30 yds of him on horseback he hasnt bothered anyone since 2007 except the feed store kid who dropped a wt buck last year and the bear came in to about 75-100 yds and was impatiently waiting for the gut pile, kid was pretty scared but admitted the bear waited till he left dragging the buck. bear was about 400 lbs in 2007 hes maybe 6-650 as of last year when my nephew and I rode up on him at 30 yds you dont have time to control a horse grab a gun and take a picture.
apr 2007 bear at neighbors ranch

Bear 231.jpg

same bear salt blocks are 50 yds from house

Bear_231_edited.jpg

june 2007 at another neighbors ranch 15 ft from back porch

Bear_granitecreek.jpg

[Grizz]

I feel so much better now !! good to know that there's no worry from bears !! I can ignore all the close calls and the people who got eaten in Alaska !! I can forget the report of the guy's screams heard four miles away while the bear was eating guts !! I can forget about the "bears love us" couple whose screams were caught on their video camera as the bear ate both of them !! what was I thinking ??

Danny, with respect, it isn't the flight that doesn't crash that kills you. The statistical outlier anomaly is the most dangerous thing in the world if you get crosswise to it. I prefer not to die the way the other guy did if I can avoid it. The bears around my place are habituated as hunter killers, they kill lots of salmon and lots of deer and they don't see much difference when they size me up with that meat market appraisal. I have seen that look in their eyes.

I'm glad they don't want to eat you.

[stew71]

My wife's uncle spends time on his mining claim up along the Dennison Fork of the Fortymile River NE of Tok. He uses a short-barrelled Mossberg 500 loaded with alternating slugs and buckshot. He calls it his "Bear Swatter" and keeps it close-at-hand at all times when in the field.

[BigSky56]

Grizz the point I was trying to show is it doesnt take a 45 magnum anything to kill a bear and not every bear in Alaska Canada or the 48 dreams & wakes up and thinks today I going to go kill & eat a person. bears are opportunists, dont give them the opportunity you can do that by going armed and using some awareness when afield. The bear around my place I was referring to is the exception to the rule thought I pointed that out my mistake if I didnt. I dont loose any sleep or my water worrying about them and I am out and around them except when their in a winter nap. The one thing I get tired of hearing the calls of everyone needs a 45 magnum pistol or rifle, a cns shot with anything will get it done. Plus you need a gun not pepper spray why! if you spray them they can try again you or some other person same as a robber Iam not going to spray him either, I'll give em both a dirt nap. danny

[Grizz]

Thanks Danny

I'm not fighting about it. I just don't trust the things. I don't mind watching them when I'm fishing or something, or when they're a quarter mile up hill in the alpine where I can keep an eye on them its one thing, but when I have a deer on my back and I know there is a bear around that I can't see and I am in dense brush on a bear trail I get real cautious. Never warmed up to the thrill I guess...

You're right about the choice of firearm for bear defense. There are lots of possibilities around. I carry the ones I like to shoot the most.

Thanks for your perspective, I know you're living it.

Grizz

[BAGTIC]

Pump over SA is the standard position but it is suspect. With a clean gun and factory ammo I doubt there is any difference in reliability. Modern guns are reliable enouh that some SWAT units use SA instead of pump because of their advantages. Steadier gun positioning, better ability to use one handed and from behind cover. Pumps often malfunction in the excitement of the moment due to short-stroking. Pump's real advantage is their versatility. They can handle ultra light loads, non lethal loads, signals and flares, etc. Easily and interchangeably.

[Grizz]

I agree Bagtic

I'm interested in the Mossberg 930:



Looks to be a 500 with a gas drive on the action bars. I think this would be a great boat gun.