Need help with project...

[alnitak]

I have another post on trying to find a forearm for my 94AE in .44mag. With all the uncertainty on what fits what, I'd like to enlist the forum's help in definitely figuring this out. To that end, I need your data and measurements for the forearms you have on your guns. I've created a simple Excel spreadsheet here...

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_puOAo ... 1QbzQ/edit

...for those forearms I have. Can you help me fill out the sheet and gather as many examples as possible? Some questions I want to put to rest once and for all are:

The difference in barrel size between pre-64, post-64 and AE barrels
The barrel diameter difference between various calibers
Test the assumption that tapers are the same for all length barrels
Understand the difference in tapers/forearms between barrel types (round, octagon and half-round)
Etc.

Thanks for your help.

[Old Savage]

Doesn't want to let me in.

[alnitak]

My bad...I had the setting wrong. Now anyone can edit. Thanks!!

[Griff]

I'll get some measurements when I get home. Is this a "Trapper" barrel? I only have two, both post-'64s.

[alnitak]

Well, one of mine is a Trapper. But among the three I have, each is different, so it appears that barrel length/taper might have something to do with it even with the same caliber. So, I'm actually looking for data among all calibers, barrel lengths and dates of manufacture.

For example, I'm already surprised by the data. Though Joe talked about the "bull barrels" in AE .44 and .45, I was surprised that a pre-64 carbine in .30-30 actually has a wider back portion than the AE, though a skinnier front part!

[alnitak]

If anyone is having issues editing the Excel file, feel free to just download the file and add your data to it. Email it to me at bjmintaka@aol.com and I will consolidate the data and repost for everyone to have access.

[rjohns94]

BTT. Come on guys, I would think you would want to have this type of info.

[Mescalero]

rjohns94,
Lighten up, I only have one wonderchester; and it is in N.M.

[Mike Hunter]

just curious, what exactly are you looking for??

I have measured quite a few Winchester barrels, mostly because I make them. There is some variations especially in the pre 1900 guns.

V/R

Mike

[Mescalero]

Sorry Mike,
If that was "over the top" it was not meant to be

[rjohns94]

No problem. I'm just amazed a true levergun topic, where we all could learn something that has not been mentioned here before, and no one has replied. I only have one winchester and its from 1929.

[alnitak]

just curious, what exactly are you looking for??

I have measured quite a few Winchester barrels, mostly because I make them. There is some variations especially in the pre 1900 guns.

V/R

Mike

Mike,

I'm looking for forearm measurements. I am amazed at the variation in just the three that I have...and none of them will fit the other rifle. Though I have seen referenced the "interchangeability" of forearms between models, years, calibers, etc. ...in practice with my limited sample size, I have not seen that to be true. It appears you have a wealth of experience as a restorer...so maybe mine is just an anomaly. However, I have purchased at least three forearms (I believe four actually), and still can't find one that fits my 94AE Trapper in .44 mag.

I would like to compile data across 50-100 Winchesters, various years, calibers, barrel lengths, etc. and actually see the measured variation between them. I believe I laid out some of the questions/assumptions I want to test. For example, taper seems to be a factor that is not really considered. You mentioned in another post three different tapers...but how does that translate to forearm dimensions? Does it vary by AE vs. non-AE? Does it vary by caliber, or only barrel length?

Over the years, there have been a few threads here on this forum, some started by me, that asked about forearms, e.g., "Can I use a post-64 in a pre-64?"..."Is the forearm different for a longer barrel vs. a Trapper?"...etc. the answers generally have been:
a) Forearms are interchangeable between post- and pre-64
b) barrel length doesn't matter, as the taper in the forearm distance is the same and just remains constant beyond the front of the forearm
c) caliber doesn't matter as the barrel diameter is the same...just the bore is different (this has recently been modified to allow for the "bull" barrels of the .44 and .45 AEs -- but does it apply to the dash calibers and .357 as well??)
d) an extended forearm can be exchanged with a standard forearm because there is no further taper beyond the length of the standard forearm in the barrel

My limited experience has caused me to question the accepted lore of Winchester forearm fit, certainly with respect to a), b) and c) above. I just want to collect enough data to be able to draw definitive conclusions and serve as a guide for those of us looking to replace forearms in the future.

I believe the answer is in the data...with enough data and measurements across enough variations of 94s, we will see the pattern emerge...without guessing and/or assumptions.

[Mike Hunter]

My knowledge of the more modern guns is pretty limited; as my cut-off point for Winchesters is around 1937.

Winchester went thru a lot of turmoil in 80 & 90s being sold to U.S. Repeating Arms, think a couple of Chapter 13s, outsourcing a lot of its production, so I imagine a lot of variation in it’s product line.

For forend interchangeability on post 64 guns, first place I would look is the Gun Parts Corp and Jack First catalogues. Just a quick look at GPCs online catalogue, there’s in excess of 20 different post 64 model 1894/94 variants. Quite often the catalogue will provide a serial number range: use forened XX for 94 Post 64 Top Eject Big Bore SN 123456 thru SN 654321.

The three different barrel tapers I was referring to in an earlier post, what I was trying to say was that on the 1886, 1892 and 1894 carbine barrels there are three separate and distinct tapers on each barrel.

If you take an 1873 carbine barrel for example; it has a straight taper; so say the breech end measures .950, and the muzzle measures .605, that means the muzzle is .345 smaller than the breech; on a 20 inch barrel that equates to .017 per inch taper. For a straight taper each inch going from breech to the muzzle will be .017 smaller than the preceding inch. You can literally lay a straight edge on the barrel.

On the 1886, 1892 and 1894 barrels, the first taper may be a .005 per inch taper and would start at the shoulder and may end 3.795 inches from the shoulder. The second taper may be .015 per inch and would start at 3.796, end at 13.65 inches from the shoulder. The last taper may be .017 beginning at 13.655 and continue on to the end of the barrel. A royal PITA to machine.

Please don’t use the numbers above for actual measurements…an example only.

On the pre 1927 guns, the forends are fairly interchangeable, 1892 large cal and 1894 carbine forends are all interchangeable. The only exception are the trapper carbines with 12, 14, 15 & 16 inch barrels, and the short rifles with 20 inch and shorter barrels.

If you are looking for a specific forend, drop me a PM. I know a guy who knows a guy whose brother’s sister’s uncle’s cousin knows a guy that cleaned out Winchester’s warehouses. Might be able to help.


V/R

Mike Hunter

[Griff]

I can't enter my data.