women shooters; non-levergun topic

2571 · Post by **2571** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:30 am

My daughter (24) had to take a state required gun class today to qualify for her ccw l icense.

As you might expect she was one of 100 people in the class, 1 of 3 women and the youngest person there. As you might further expect, instructors were demeaning to her at every opportunity.

My daughter took the live fire instruction with a 1911. She did well except two different insructors pulled the electric targets in to about 10 feet from her anticipating she would get discouraged by missing every shot. She suggested that was unneccessary and asked them to return the targets to 35'

Instructor asked if she ever held a gun before or if anybody in her family knew anything about pistols.

Passing with spare points, my daughter replied, "This gun was at Belleau Woods with my great grandfather, at Bataan with his son; and with my mother at the Siege of Hue. I've shot it many times." Guy, who has probably never heard a shot fired in anger, just walked away.

Doesn't it seem folk are more tolerant of female shooters here on this forum than others? Is that because of our average age here or our interest in the history of leverguns?

alnitak · Post by **alnitak** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:32 am

Great response by your daughter!!

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:20 pm

Same thing if she goes in to buy auto parts, even a windshield wiper.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:26 pm

90% of the people I see trying to sell guns or teach shooting are condescending to women, and about 75% of them aren't all that safe with the guns I watch them handle. Maybe I just go to the wrong places...

2571 · Post by **2571** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:29 pm

El Chivo wrote:Same thing if she goes in to buy auto parts, even a windshield wiper.

Amen.

2571 · Post by **2571** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:39 pm

AJMD429 wrote:90% of the people I see trying to sell guns or teach shooting are condescending to women, and about 75% of them aren't all that safe with the guns I watch them handle. Maybe I just go to the wrong places...

You & I must frequent the same lgs. Let's meet & have coffee someday. lol

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:23 pm

I've seen this demeaning attitude towards women many times over the years. It never seems to end. Some men still do not believe women are capable of doing things. I wonder sometimes where they've had their head stuck all their lives.

Joe

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:32 pm

Sorry to hear the instructor was such a small minded idiot to your daughter. Mine (25) took her CCW class last month, on her own volition, using the Glock 19 I gave her for her birthday a few years ago. Thankfully it was a small class and the instructor, by her account, was a complete professional and gentleman. When my wife took her class, I went with her, fearing what happened to your daughter. the instructor allowed me to sit through the class since I already had my CCW and to instruct my wife during the shooting portion and pretty much left us alone.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:02 pm

Women are brill (short for brilliant). What they can not do ain't worth doin'.

My mrs can show me a thing or two in most fields, a true compliment.

There are no more dumb women than there is men but one thing is certain, they sure are better to squeeze

Congrats to your daughter

Nath.

alnitak · Post by **alnitak** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:15 pm

Nath wrote:Women are brill (short for brilliant). What they can not do ain't worth doin'.

Ain't that the truth...speaking about what women can do, check this out!

This woman has more guts than a sausage factory. Take a look at this film. Fabulous footage, although grainy due to time and bad equipment in those days compared to today, but what nerve this gal had.

Gladys Ingles was a member of a barnstorming troupe called the 13 Black Cats in the 1920's. Ingles was a wing walker; in this film, she shows her fearlessness in classic barnstorming fashion to save an airplane that has lost one of its main landing gear wheels.

Ingles is shown with a replacement wheel being strapped to her back and then off she goes as "Up She Goes," a duet from the era, provides the soundtrack. In the film, Ingles transfers herself from the rescue plane to the one missing the main landing gear tire.

She then expertly works herself down to the undercarriage only a few feet from a spinning propeller. It's certainly a feat many mechanics wouldn't even try on the ground with the engine running.

She died at age 82. Click on the link below.......

http://www.flixxy.com/mid-air-airplane-repair.htm

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:51 pm

Kudos to your daughter for putting him in his place!

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:04 pm

Decades ago, I had left the line for one thing or another, and some old fool walked over, and seeing my wife alone, suggested she have someone show her how to shoot, "because it was just too dangerous for a young woman to do alone". Apparently the range officer, who knew my wife walked over and congratulated her on the target sitting on the bench. I forget how many rounds, but from her little 2" .38 they were all in the black. The old fanny burp just wandered away mumbling to himself. I wish I had been there to see it.

Yep, "Ramboina" ( a nickname she picked up at the club when she showed up with one of the first lasers hung from the trigger guard of her little Taurus 85) was younger and a bit more polite. Today, anyone trying that would run, not walk, away like a scalded cat when she got done with them.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:47 pm

The way that instructor treated your daughter is just plain contemptible. There is a woman in our shooting club who can probably outshoot any of the almost 200 men in our club. She is one of the top female shooters in Canada from what I've been told. We need all the women in the shooting sports we can get. My two daughters took their firearms course at our club and the instructor was great.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:35 pm

The only thing I don't like about females who shoot, is they usually outshoot me!.....

I'm glad your daughter put that fool in his place.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:52 pm

alnitak wrote:Great response by your daughter!!

+1. Unfortunately, some men still haven't progressed beyond the "ape" stage. And that might be giving them too much credit.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:20 pm

Most women I've shot with were either very good, or very good learners. One outshot me with my own Colt Combat Commander, it was the first time she'd ever shot a gun. I just explained how to use the sights, the slow trigger squeeze, and breath control.

A friend years ago, former wife of an aquaintance, ended up with a 380 auto out of the divorce. She had been shooting a 1911. After her experiences in the gun shops looking for a 1911 and wanted to trade off the 380, I took her 380 and sold it, and found her a nice 1911. She hadnt been shooting in several years, I took her out a couple times, she was quite good very quickly. I really wished I could have worked with her some, getting her in some action shoots, just to see the looks on the macho guys faces when she cleaned their clocks, which she was quite capable of.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:29 pm

Every female I have ever taught was a good student,
they had no pre concieved notions, so they listened.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:34 pm

2571, sounds to me ya'll did a fine job bringing up that girl.

retmech · Post by **retmech** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:44 pm

Women pay attention well and if they have good instruction learn quickly. My daughter-in-law had never shot a pistol before but always wanted to do it. We started with the .22, taught her sight alignment and trigger control and she is an excellent shot. She's not wild about 1911's(neither am I)but her favorite gun is my Lipsey's Ruger .45 convertible. With it or my K-38 she averages 4-5 hits usually and has gone 6 for 6 on my 3" swinger at 25 yds!
My pet peeve with men at the range is give some unsuspecting woman a .357/.44mag for her first shot and really rattle them. Really pi**es me off.

rimrock · Post by **rimrock** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:53 pm

guys,

don't make my daughter mad if she has her .40 s&w in reach. You can't run fast enough. She's way above average with her front stuffer, also.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:27 pm

rimrock'
That's the way it is supposed to be.
Good job.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:43 pm

Took my CCW class with my mother. They were very nice to her and when she wasn't doing well with
Grandpa's old Colt Official Police they gave her a .22lr to finish the class with.
She now has a Bersa .380 that she shoots very well and asked me to find her a 410 to go with it.

She'll be 70 next year!

jb

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:47 pm

How cool is that!

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:51 pm

2571 wrote:My daughter (24) had to take a state required gun class today to qualify for her ccw l icense.

As you might expect she was one of 100 people in the class, 1 of 3 women and the youngest person there. As you might further expect, instructors were demeaning to her at every opportunity.

My daughter took the live fire instruction with a 1911. She did well except two different insructors pulled the electric targets in to about 10 feet from her anticipating she would get discouraged by missing every shot. She suggested that was unneccessary and asked them to return the targets to 35'

Instructor asked if she ever held a gun before or if anybody in her family knew anything about pistols.

Passing with spare points, my daughter replied, "This gun was at Belleau Woods with my great grandfather, at Bataan with his son; and with my mother at the Siege of Hue. I've shot it many times." Guy, who has probably never heard a shot fired in anger, just walkede esn't it seem folk are more tolerant of female shooters here on this forum than others? Is that because of our average age here or our interest in the history of leverguns?

97% of the people on this forum are from a differeent leauge

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:54 pm

I gave my daughter her first pistol this year for her 22nd birthday. She plans to attend a CCW course with it as well. She never showed much interest in shooting until she was older. I still worry a little of her gun handling skills, however, she should score at least 90% if she shoots her typical score.
I plan to find a CCW class that is instructed for females by a female. IMO, it is nothing that they do wrong but some guys are just JERKS and feel the need to be dominate and overbearing!

CONGRATULATIONS, sounds like you and your wife have trained her well!

gcburt · Post by **gcburt** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:02 pm

J Miller wrote:I've seen this demeaning attitude towards women many times over the years. It never seems to end. Some men still do not believe women are capable of doing things. I wonder sometimes where they've had their head stuck all their lives. Joe

I really saw it in the military.

HOEVER: The best three sergeants I ever had work for me were all female. One of my best commanders was a female Major.

I can attest that female's are very capable at doing whatever thing they have their hearts set upon!!

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:13 pm

Good for your daughter

never under estimate a Woman! My wife can make a steer out of a bull, shoot a deer, fall timber &
cut a log out of it, or cut & split fire wood with the best of em, drive a truck & cuss some( at times)
all that & still be a woman to me

ollogger

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:52 pm

I grew up in rural N.M.
I know them women.
The best there is.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:53 pm

It's a rare occurrence when I meet a woman I can't tolerate. With men, it's the rare occurrence when I meet one that I can tolerate. Is it any wonder I enjoy spending time at Hooters or Twin Peaks.

Post by **Hobie** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:45 pm

No good NCO ever treats a female soldier any differently than any other soldier but a good NCO knows how to lead every individual soldier. I never had a problem instructing women. MOST women have the fine motor skills and eyesight to out shoot males, some clearly are more willing to kill than other soldiers. While we treat every customer at the shop with respect (and you have to know that there are ALL kinds who shoot), we do not have many female members at our club. I think they just come as their husbands' guest and that suffices.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:29 am

I believe it was Gordon Liddy who was discussing in his book that women are inherently better shots than men. It has to do with heartbeat, perhaps lower metabolism, that makes them steadier.

I have also heard that many men have stopped taking their wives and girlfriends hunting because they get all the game. Maybe they just smell better.

piller · Post by **piller** » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:21 am

One of my cousins, Patricia (goes by Pat as you would expect) is the best pistol shot I have ever seen. With her .38 S&W there isn't anything she misses. With her bow she shoots at 9 inch circles of cardboard thrown in the air. The only target she shoots at with her bow that isn't moving is the mouth of a plastic pop bottle. She likes to put an arrow into the mouth of a plastic pop bottle from 15 yards. I can't even come close. Then there is my daughter, Sighthunter, who shoots her Mother's 30-06 and loves it. You can ask 86er or RKrodle if Sighthunter is accurate. They have seen her shoot. She is not afraid of shooting heavy kicking guns either. She shoots my Guide Gun at the range, and has fired my SRH in .480 Ruger. PillHer likes to shoot, but she is sort of casual about her marksmanship. If she gets it in the 9 ring, she is just fine with that. She only gets interested with her 30-06 or her SP101 in .327 Federal. With those 2, she insists on trying to fit all shots into 1 hole, which she very nearly does.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:27 pm

game keeper wrote:The only thing I don't like about females who shoot, is they usually outshoot me!.....

I'm glad your daughter put that fool in his place.

+1 on BOTH counts! Women I have instructed have taken the instruction better than the vast majority of men I have dealt with. Women put up with a lot of stuff from people of all walks, and it's amazing. i am a retired Air Traffic controller, and with almost 27 years of controlling under my belt, The last person I trained was a young lady in her early 20's. Our "area" of operation, had about 60 controllers, and I told that young lady, before I left, she had the potential and talent to be better than all of them.

Most of the time I think men mistake a womans lack of experience or exposure to a particular task, as an inability to perform that particular task. The only flaw some women share is their tendency to a little more emotion, but that doesn't mean they do not know how to point and shoot, when the time arises.

66GTO · Post by **66GTO** » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:02 pm

Malamute wrote:Most women I've shot with were either very good, or very good learners. One outshot me with my own Colt Combat Commander, it was the first time she'd ever shot a gun. I just explained how to use the sights, the slow trigger squeeze, and breath control.

A friend years ago, former wife of an aquaintance, ended up with a 380 auto out of the divorce. She had been shooting a 1911. After her experiences in the gun shops looking for a 1911 and wanted to trade off the 380, I took her 380 and sold it, and found her a nice 1911. She hadnt been shooting in several years, I took her out a couple times, she was quite good very quickly. I really wished I could have worked with her some, getting her in some action shoots, just to see the looks on the macho guys faces when she cleaned their clocks, which she was quite capable of.

I was the range officer for our field office and did several details to our national training academy as a firearms instructor. What I found was that most women were much easier to train to shoot pistols because they came with little or no previous firearms experience. They had not picked up bad habits that needed to be unlearned and they did not have the "I already know how to shoot" attitude. They had a little more trouble with the shotgun because they had to overcome their fear of the recoil. We later added Rem. 11-87's in addition to our 870's and the women preferred the auto loaders over the pump. There were a few women who grew up hunting and shotguns were second nature to them. I much preferred the female students

wolfdog · Post by **wolfdog** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:25 am

I love teaching women to shoot. Shown a bit of patience, and respect they learn much better than most men/boys.
Pet peeve is, as stated before, starting them, or any begining shooter for that matter on centerfire pistols. 22's untell they get sight picture,stance, and grip right, then you try them on the bigger stuff.

And besides all that, helping women with thier stance and grip is a lot more fun.

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:44 am

It is a shame because we really need more women in the shooting sports. They are more than half the population and if these male chauvinist pigs keep driving them away we are in for a world of future political hurt. The same goes for minorities.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:59 am

Most of them listen better.

You do get a few who try to do the poor me help a girl out thing though. Had a machine-gunner try that, told her if she wants to play with the big boys, she had to carry the same load we did.

I once taught a single mom how to shoot (correctly) with a .45 ACP and a 12 gauge pump because it was what was at hand.

She'd point-shot a dog of hers who went feral and was attacking her goats with a .22 rifle. About 20 hits later, she finally finished it off. Considering she had no idea what she was doing with a gun, well, she got the job done.

Upgraded her personal armarment with an NEF single-shot 12 gauge after that and taught her to use it correctly.

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:52 am

OK, I'll be the one to say it; wemmens are no different than men in the learning process. Some do really well with guns, and some are terrified of recoil (my first wife, could take 'em or leave 'em, my second could shoot a 2" .38 better than I could. Third wife, couldn't care less about shooting, but loved SC football. Number 4 was a farm girl that liked .22s and shotguns. Present wife took handgun classes, but isn't real physically strong so racking the slide of my 1911 is too hard for her, but she took my Taurus 85 as her own.) Some even play dumb for the attention ("Oh, poor little me, big scary guns, will you show me how? Huh, pretty please"). Yep, some take to it and some don't. Some men take to needle-point and knitting too...

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:38 pm

Here is my 14 year old daughter's first try with a Glock 19 at 7 yards. A few shots to get the feel of it and the rest of the mag right in the cigarettes. Who says girls can't shoot?

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:49 pm

ollogger wrote:never under estimate a Woman! My wife can make a steer out of a bull. . .

Mine keeps reminding me she knows how to do that, too - so I am VERY nice to her...!!!

I think the condescending types at the stores/ranges are the same ones who like to turn OFF a potential shooter by handing a newbie a hard-kicking 12 gauge or something just to see them get embarassed or hurt.

As for getting more women involved, it is good for two reasons:

THEY are the ones most likely around to protect the children, and
THEY are a lobbying force to be reckoned with (if they all liked EBR's NOBODY would dare ban them!)

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:50 pm

OBVIOUSLY "kids and guns don't mix..."