OT Optimizing Ruger's for Lead Bullets - Part 2, Cyl Throats

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Old No7
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OT Optimizing Ruger's for Lead Bullets - Part 2, Cyl Throats

Post by Old No7 »

OK, here we go with the 2nd part of this project...

Credit for this step also goes to Iowegan for the expert knowledge he shares in his IBOK (Iowegan's Book of Knowledge, for the GP-SP series). I also want to acknowledge Fred Z from 4D Products in Wyoming (www.4-dproducts.com) for renting me the 38/357 Special Throating Reamer with 7 Pilots. The quality of that tool was superb, and the ability to select the exact sized pilot needed (hint: I used 4 of the 7) helped ensure an accurate job. The rental price was also great, versus buying a new tool and set of pilots for 1 job, so I'd encourage you to check the website if you decide to do this task.

Again, I will skip the step-by-step details, but just cover the highlights. The picture shows the 4D reamer with 1 pilot mounted, extra C clips, the other pilots and crude drawings showing the size pilots I needed for the cylinders. Note there were 3 pilots needed for the GP100, ranging from 20 thou's to 30 thou's undersized for the 0.358" bullets. The reamer cuts to exactly 0.358", as you'll see later. The l'il SP101 had 5 throats all the same -- which was a surprise compared to what I found on the GP -- but even those were 10 thou's undersized. As you'd expect, using the same smooth cutting action and liberal cutting oil, the effort on the SP was less than that to ream the GP.

Here are the throats before, with the 4D tools:
Image

By the way, the T-handle on the reamer came from the forcing cone tool set, so make sure you have access to one as it's not included with the reamer & pilots rental. Fred at 4D liked this picture so much when I sent a copy of it to him with the reamer return, that he asked me for a jpg copy for his website, so you may see it there some time in the future. Fred was great to deal with and if I ever need to rent another reamer, 4D will get the nod from me.

Throats after:
Image

As you can see above, after the reaming all 11 cylinder throats accepted the 0.358" SWC lead bullets I am using, requiring the same slight effort to push them through. I was really pleased with the consistency of the sizing and the smoothness of the cuts. But here again, you must be diligent to clear all chips from the reamer before you ream another and NEVER back up a reamer as it could chip the cutter (which you'd be responsible for) or damage the work (which you'd regret for a long time). Once you start the reamer, you slowly twist it clockwise and smoothly all the way through, using liberal cutting oil.

OK, it's time for the rubber to meet the road!

Before, using the same load and rest, my GP100 was giving me 2" to 3" groups at 50 feet. Check out the "after" target below, and I take full credit for the lone flyer which ruined an otherwise exceptional group.

GP target after:
Image

The SP101 was shooting 3" to 4" groups before, due mostly I think to the shorter sight radius and barrel, a heavier trigger pull and combat sights. Still there's a sizeable improvement, with yet another flyer provided by me. (That's the NEXT problem I need to work on -- the loose nut behind the trigger!)

SP target after:
Image

There are no photo's to back it up, but the leading in the cylinder throats is all but eliminated and the forcing cones look great after 100 rounds each as well. Overall, I'd have to say this project was a huge success! And now that I've corrected the leading issues, the clean-up won't be such a chore, so I hope to shoot these a lot more and improve my skills and technique. Gotta fix those flyers next...

Thanks again to Iowegan, Brownell's and 4D Fred.

Tight groups to all!

Old No7
Last edited by Old No7 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Chuck 100 yd »

COOL ! :D Nice report !! :wink:
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Post by jd45 »

No.7, you'll forgive me, but I just cannot imagine chamber throats that're 20 to 30 thousanths of an inch smaller than groove diameter. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you meant that they're 2 to 3 thousanths smaller than groove diameter. I can't see the factory letting a revolver out the door in that condition because of the liability issue, & if you tried to fire a bullet thru those chambers, I think you'd have a catastrophic failure. Add to that, I've heard of .45 Colt-chambered Rugers with .448 or .449 chamber throats with a groove diameter of .451. No disrespect meant here, but you see what I'm getting at, don't you? Just my 2 cents, jd45
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Cylinder throats...

Post by Old No7 »

Thanks for the comments jd45.

The cylinder throats were 20 to 30 thous' smaller than the 0.358" bullets. The tight throats sized the bullets down and I wasn't getting a good seal in the barrel -- causing major leading! -- and the accuracy wasn't worth writing about either.

Now, with the throats reamed out to 0.358", this allows the lead bullets to pass -- without squeezing down any further -- into the forcing cone, where they are 0.001" over the bore size.

I haven't verified it personally, but I've been told that Ruger drills all 5 or 6 holes at the same time, and it's quite common to have varying sized throats -- especially on .45 Colts, as you said. Seems there's a whole cottage industry started up of home gunsmiths reaming cylinder throats to the proper size for the bore for the 45's. Check out some of the Cowboy Action forums for the results they've been getting from reaming throats to the proper size.

I just shot another 50 rounds from my GP100 just last night with nice & tight groups, so I'm still pleased with the project and results.

Tight groups!

Old No7
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Post by PaulB »

What jd45 is getting at, if I'm not mistaken, is that the throats probably were 20 to 30 ten-thousandths undersized. If they were 20 thousandths undersized for a .358 bullet, that would mean the diameter was .338!

Or maybe I'm just missing something here... :roll:

Great thread by the way. I believe I am going to have to take a look at my revolver throats, and it is all your fault. :lol:
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Post by jd45 »

No Paul, I think you're right on the money. 20 to 30 TEN-thousanths would equal 2 to 3 thousanths. Just imagine if there was a difference of 20 to 30 thousanths of an inch between the bullet, after being swaged in the chamber throat, & the rifling's groove diameter. You'd be lucky to get your bullets TO the target you were shooting them at, let alone expecting any kind of "group". It'd be more like a shotgun pattern. I would also expect serious keyholing of the projectiles IF they ever got to the intended target. Again, no disrespect meant No. 7, but I'd recheck my measuring device If I were you. jd45
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Post by J Miller »

.002" to .003" maybe, .020" to .030" undersized, no way. If it were that far undersized you'd never get a round in the chamber. The bullets do protrude into the throat a bit. Unless you're shooting 38s or wadcutters.

I'm afraid I gotta go with JD45 and and Paul on this.

However, I am tickled you got your Rugers working right.

Joe
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Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

J Miller wrote:.002" to .003" maybe, .020" to .030" undersized, no way. If it were that far undersized you'd never get a round in the chamber. The bullets do protrude into the throat a bit. Unless you're shooting 38s or wadcutters.

I'm afraid I gotta go with JD45 and and Paul on this.

However, I am tickled you got your Rugers working right.

Joe
Hi Joe,
I haven't seen ruger throats that tight but I have seen them as small as .299 to .301 for the 32 H&R (.312) single six. Also, when Ruger first came out with the Vaquero in 44-40 they were doing supposedly .427 throats into .429 barrels :roll: but I had two here that were .420 to .423. You could really tell when shooting these gun, too. The throats were causing enough restriction, they really bucked in you hand even with cowboy loads. Leading was really bad, as well.
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Post by CowboyTutt »

Steve, if it hasn't been said in a while, let me just say again what a valuable member of this forum you are! Your insights and experience are priceless!

-Tutt
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Oops...

Post by Old No7 »

jd and Paul are right! Had to look at it a 3rd time to realize what you guys were saying...

Sorry -- my mistake -- I must have had thousandth's on the brain, when it was really 20 to 30 ten-thous'.

Anyway, she still shoots great! Even if I can't count...

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Post by jd45 »

No. 7, REAL glad you achieved a satisfactory result!!! jd45
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Post by cas »

FWIW.. the worst I've seen (undersized wise) was a .44-40 with .4230" throats. (with Rugers .430" barrel)
Slow is just slow.
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Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

cas wrote:FWIW.. the worst I've seen (undersized wise) was a .44-40 with .4230" throats. (with Rugers .430" barrel)
Musta been one of those early 44-40 Vaq's
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Post by J Miller »

It is surprising how much undersized throats can increase pressure and felt recoil.
When I got my current Old Model Blackhawk in .45Colt the felt recoil was noticeably heavier than any other single action .45 I'd ever owned. And the cases showed signs of the higher pressure as well. The throats were around .450", with a .452" grove diameter.

After getting the throats reamed out the difference in felt recoil and pressure signs was obvious.

Accuracy improved, leading reduced, and all was hunky dory.

Joe
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Post by jd45 »

Right on, Joe! jd45
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