where's Terry Murbach??

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:58 am

My son asked about him last night. Has anyone heard from him lately?

Maybe we need to have a roll call around here from time to time.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:55 am

Terry is in SD doing well and being himself.
He posts over on The Ruger Forum and I think the Single Action forum.
He got PO'd at the treatment he was getting from several folks here some time back and left.
Our loss.

Joe

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:05 am

J Miller wrote:He got PO'd at the treatment he was getting from several folks here some time back and left.
Our loss.

Treatment he got?

LK

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:23 am

L_Kilkenny wrote:
J Miller wrote:He got PO'd at the treatment he was getting from several folks here some time back and left.
Our loss.
Treatment he got? :? :roll: LK

too bad...life is way to short... :|

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:26 am

some people were pretty mean to him,
it was a shameful thing.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:32 am

I must have missed something.

Our loss for sure!

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:33 am

L_Kilkenny wrote:
J Miller wrote:He got PO'd at the treatment he was getting from several folks here some time back and left.
Our loss.
Treatment he got?

LK

I doubt it was the treatment he got, his skin is pretty thick. I believe he has lost interest in this site because the level of discussion here is not where he thinks it should be or once was. We've lost quite a few of the old timers here and the site has changed much in the short decade or so I've been lurking here. I believe Mr. Murbach was one of the originals and knows the level of knowledge that once graced these pages.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:41 am

Tycer wrote:
L_Kilkenny wrote:
J Miller wrote:He got PO'd at the treatment he was getting from several folks here some time back and left.
Our loss.
Treatment he got?

LK
I doubt it was the treatment he got, his skin is pretty thick. I believe he has lost interest in this site because the level of discussion here is not where he thinks it should be or once was. We've lost quite a few of the old timers here and the site has changed much in the short decade or so I've been lurking here. I believe Mr. Murbach was one of the originals and knows the level of knowledge that once graced these pages.

Tycer,
That is also part of it. Sad to say but a lot of the heart has left this forum.

Joe

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:15 pm

Tycer wrote:
L_Kilkenny wrote:
J Miller wrote:He got PO'd at the treatment he was getting from several folks here some time back and left.
Our loss.
Treatment he got?

LK
I doubt it was the treatment he got, his skin is pretty thick. I believe he has lost interest in this site because the level of discussion here is not where he thinks it should be or once was. We've lost quite a few of the old timers here and the site has changed much in the short decade or so I've been lurking here. I believe Mr. Murbach was one of the originals and knows the level of knowledge that once graced these pages.

I think that's an accurate description of what has happened. Many new members are ignorant of just who they are "speaking" with on the forum. I think that some were quick to criticize without realizing that some of the people they were addressing hadn't just been there and done that they had set up what they were discussing. Some of these founders had been/have been in the business 20-50 years and these "young" pups "spoke" to them as if they were teen-aged potheads while taking great offense at any sort of reproach from their "elders".

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:26 pm

Dang I'm sorry to hear that.

Well I know as I get older I seem to have less patience with some people, but since I'm outnumbered it might be easier to just shoot me. It seems there's too many of them.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:44 pm

Terry and I both got raked over the coals pretty good on that scope discussion a few years ago, then a few weeks ago it popped up again, and I tried to hold my own, but then backed off.
Hobie is right, they have made up thier minds, and we should not cofuse them with facts.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:47 pm

Mescalero wrote:Terry and I both got raked over the coals pretty good on that scope discussion a few years ago, then a few weeks ago it popped up again, and I tried to hold my own, but then backed off.
Hobie is right, they have made up thier minds, and we should not cofuse them with facts.

Yep, however, I learned very much from that first one. Glad you're back.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:49 pm

Glad to be back,
there are some good people here.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:56 pm

Mescalero wrote:Terry and I both got raked over the coals pretty good on that scope discussion a few years ago, then a few weeks ago it popped up again, and I tried to hold my own, but then backed off.
Hobie is right, they have made up thier minds, and we should not cofuse them with facts.

As I told Terry: "There's no arguing with ignorant" (or stoopid, for that matter); and although I'm no Terry Murbach, and haven't gotten into any big arguements here - I'm also getting to feel pretty much done here, because of the drop in quality of discussion here. (I know I won't be missed much, though - s'ok.)

1st there were a LOT of OT threads, and now "OT" isn't even needed - with pretty much everything but, now being discussed on this "leverguns" forum.

.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:32 pm

Terry answers emails....I locked horns with him once, and it does not appear that he holds a grudge....a great gentleman, and treasure of knowledge. I look up to him as I did Elmer Keith, or Col. Cooper.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:57 pm

I am glad to see this, I agree 100% with what Hobie said.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:08 pm

I have read terrys stuff and he knows it. I think we are both about the same age and backgrounds. I also got in trouble on a couple sites myself, maybe ate a little crow even though I thought it petty and survived it.
That said I am not as quick as some of you alibying for terry. If you read what I did you should admit that he would jump down newbys throats like R lee emery. Well we aint in the marines and have to take it. Now if he wanted to dish it out he should be able to take it back. He couldnt and didnt. I have also made a butt of myself at times, apologised when I didnt quite mean it and carried on. I wish he would come back too. And he dont need to apoligise for my part.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:28 pm

I was wondering where Mr Murbach had gone, I not only miss the knowledge but I also miss his humor often blunt and to the point.

As for this great forum not being quite what it was, perhaps it's because of the knowledge that we have gleaned from the likes of Mr Murbach and others, we all know a lot more about leverguns than we did when we all joined.
We are now so happy that we "think" we know everything about Winchesters and Marlins Etc. that we discuss anything but leverguns..

IF YOU ARE READING THIS TERRY PLEASE COME BACK.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:30 pm

BlaineG wrote:Terry answers emails....I locked horns with him once, and it does not appear that he holds a grudge....a great gentleman, and treasure of knowledge. I look up to him as I did Elmer Keith, or Col. Cooper.

Same ere'

Nath.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:15 pm

I must admit to enjoying the race to get my microwave popcorn made between the time the noob asked the question and the time the capital letters started to fly.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:20 pm

Terry knew his stuff and I wish he would come back(learned a lot of stuff from him)

It's sometimes hard cause we really don't see/meet actually have that initial one on one interaction(I believe even if we discussed stuff over the phone it would go down different)
I sure as heck aint no angel and have done my share(though I am trying very hard to view things differently lately)

Got to thinking ya know when your driving and someone does something that you think is wrong/disrespectful etc in the other car???
You get all ticked off and sometimes things go worse(really that other guy in the other car you don't know him/maybe he just got laid off/lost a family member/etc. Maybe what he did he really didn't mean to do it to you ???? To him it's just that white car etc.

But things do push peoples buttons differently. I guess the best rule is to after typing something actually think before hitting the submit tab (do I really want this to represent me/how I judge things/and not just I feel ticked and now going to vent back????

In the normal non computer forum, yep I am the kind of guy for not taking much stuff/being stepped on etc., but I guess when not actually seeing someone face to face--- gotta handle things with a little more ease of thought because there is too much room for error of communication between both parties possibly ?

Isn't it unreal also how things can start with just a little (something)and after a couple days---wow??

I will say one thing---(I do think this forum has progressed (some probably think regressed)into much more of a broad topic range. I will say with that----------------that I find extremely enlightening.
Honest-----I really like all the extremely interesting things/info/experiences you guys have/had etc. Same with new members, I think that is the future for this forum.Really nice meeting new interesting people.
Is this Forum perfect?? Nope---just better than all the rest out there.
It's about guns/friends/life experiences/values and such.
Personally, if it was about just lever action guns(only that discussio n)don't get mad now(might not "to me now" waste my time!
God Bless----

WCF3030 · Post by **WCF3030** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:24 pm

BlaineG wrote:Terry answers emails....I locked horns with him once, and it does not appear that he holds a grudge....a great gentleman, and treasure of knowledge. I look up to him as I did Elmer Keith, or Col. Cooper.

+1
Terry has responded to all of my emails from questions about 9mm to 500 S&W which he was part of its development.
I'm lucky to have such a person to ask for advice and bounce ideas off of.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:28 pm

rimfire

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:05 pm

Mescalero wrote:rimfire

+ 1

william iorg · Post by **william iorg** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:12 pm

When I started loading the 30-30AI I headed off in the wrong direction, Terry pulled me back toward the light. With oone or two gentle prodsTerry saved me a lot of frustration.

Terry also named the 3”barrel, full underlug Model 36 in flat black finish the “Trail Masterpiece.” I read his article and did not sleep well until I got mine!

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:56 pm

I'd heard that he & Will Terry were living quietly on the Sussex Downs tending to their bees.

Denis

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:21 pm

I don`t know or was here as far as the topic of this thread happened and it sounds like everyone liked him and wishes he would come back, as a guy that appreciates knowledge from people in the know i wish he`d come back also.

Too those that replied about there being too much off topic stuff posted that bugs me because it make us that post OT threads don`t know how much we are really wanted here.
Maybe there should be a poll started asking who minds OT threads and who doesn`t.
I get mixed feelings as i`ve had people tell me that i`m contributing too the board in a positive way.
I try and start threads about guns also and if i can help someone with a gun issue i sure am ready.
Also about thick skin thin skin people, everyone is different and it would be boring if everyone was the same.
If people do their best to be nice and if they do say something that hurt someone they should immediately post and say their sorry.
No need for hard feelings anywhere and the ones that can`t help themselves from doing it should be asked to leave.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:43 pm

Our loss for sure. I miss his wisdom.

william iorg · Post by **william iorg** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:37 pm

DPris wrote:living quietly on the Sussex Downs tending to their bees.
Denis

Ah, I still have a last jar of the '86...

(sorry about tha, I was thinking of Delta and the Bannermen...)

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:42 pm

Like My Dad and Grandparents Terry wasn't handed everything on a Silver Platter With a Spoon to match...one had to read go to the library and write letters to find out things that are on the internet today in 10 minuets. He had no respect for people who had 1 post and had something for sale or wanted to know how big a bullet for the .45 Colt was........sure He could come off Gruff to alot of the newbies, but I Sure Miss Him. just like I miss My Elders.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:02 pm

Is this Forum perfect?? Nope---just better than all the rest out there.

What madman said.........

-Stretch

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:27 pm

Being chastised by every other nOObie for his all-caps probably got a tad old too.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:43 pm

That is something that I still do not understand, all the fuss and screaming and bad jokes about typing in CAPITAL LETTERS, WHAT IS WRONG WITH IT, is there a computer users law against it? I really would like an answer from anyone that knows. Not everyone took high school typing, when I was a senior in 1958 not one boy took typing.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:03 pm

Pitchy wrote:Maybe there should be a poll started asking who minds OT threads and who doesn`t.

That 'issue' surfaces every once in awhile, and the consensus seems to be

"If you don't like posts that aren't about leverguns. . . don't read them. . . !

Sometimes a few months goes by where someone doesn't complain about how the forum has 'gone downhill', and longing for the 'good old days' when it was a thriving place, with hundreds of new posts every day, every single one about some exciting levergun topic...

When I notice that, I usually post a comment reminding folks that it's time for the quarterly "OT post about how there are too many OT posts."

Personally (and I know the forum wouldn't fall apart without me participating), I wouldn't participate nearly as much, or even 'lurk' as often, if there were no threads on welding, skinning game, steam engines, or that sort of thing. Probably, it's just because I already know everything there is about leverguns, so only the 'OT' posts hold any hope of exposing me to something new and interesting. Yeah, right...!

Terry got an extra-large serving of ribbing, and sometimes was treated as if he was not only a curmudgeon, but an arrogant and hard-to-get-along-with one. Having talked to him one-on-one, other than a likely well-earned 'curmudgeon' label, the other 'accusations' definitely were not NOT my impression. If he 'offended' too many tender would-be levergunners, that's too bad, but I'd like to think that most folks old enough to shoot a levergun are old enough to realize that being chided or typed at in ALL CAPS doesn't mean the world is coming to an end. (ESPECIALLY the younger crowd, who should well-know the limitations of typed vs face-to-face interaction, and surely realize those of us who are over-40 may not be versed in the use of 'smilies'.)

Likewise, if those who griped because Terry didn't come across with the self-effacing and gracious polish the rest of us have so successfully cultivated (

), managed to offend him enough, or more likely bore him enough, that he chose to quit posting, then I think somewhere there's a lesson about pots and kettles, but nothing one way or the other for Terry or anyone who he irritated to lose sleep over, or any of the rest of us, for that matter.

soon 2 retire · Post by **soon 2 retire** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:11 pm

JerryB wrote:That is something that I still do not understand, all the fuss and screaming and bad jokes about typing in CAPITAL LETTERS, WHAT IS WRONG WITH IT, is there a computer users law against it? I really would like an answer from anyone that knows. Not everyone took high school typing, when I was a senior in 1958 not one boy took typing.

This whole "typing in all caps is shouting" notion gives me a serious case of the Red Bottom Some nameless bunch of Poindexters got together at a Star Wars convention and came up with this rule. They're probably the descendants of the ones who said you must use the small fork for salads or that I have to switch my fork to my right hand after cutting my steak even though I'm left handed. I have a challenge for all the righteous all caps haters; please view Paco's posts and then write a scathing reply about his use of all caps. How about it? Do you have the stones? I'm going to commit a serious breach of etiquette here: Go ahead, I "triple dog dare you".

Just my opinion, for what it's worth YMMV.

Bob in Friday Harbor

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:31 pm

soon 2 retire wrote: This whole "typing in all caps is shouting" notion gives me a serious case of the Red Bottom Some nameless bunch of Poindexters got together at a Star Wars convention and came up with this rule.

Bob in Friday Harbor

Someone will correct me soon, I'm sure. But I'd wager that the guys who came up with the etiquette (not law, not rule) were 30 (or more) years older than the average Star Wars fanboy. I think it's been around since Arpanet.
Face it. The internet is the geeks domain. Why is it so hard to adjust to their customs? If a geek came to our gun range, we'd darn sure expect him to follow our traditions. What does it hurt to point an un-loaded gun at someone on the range? Sure causes a lot of hard feelings (I know apples and oranges since ALL CAPS never killed anyone.) Just saying. When in Rome...

soon 2 retire · Post by **soon 2 retire** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:04 am

Vancelw,

I respect both you and your opinion as I do for everyone here; but I just don't agree. The net belongs to everyone now and in our little corner the owner and moderators have defined the brand of etiquette to be followed here. As I originally pointed out that the owner of this site is comfortable with all caps so I'm cool with it. I've got nothing against geeks either; in a galaxy long long ago and far far away, I was a math and computer science major.

Bob in Friday Harbor

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:30 am

Rimfire McNutjob wrote:I must admit to enjoying the race to get my microwave popcorn made between the time the noob asked the question and the time the capital letters started to fly.

WELL SAID!

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:26 am

Terry Murbach's all-caps were always a welcome sight and usually very educational.

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:02 am

Pitchy wrote:To those that replied about there being too much off topic stuff posted that bugs me because it make us that post OT threads don`t know how much we are really wanted here.
Maybe there should be a poll started asking who minds OT threads and who doesn`t.
I get mixed feelings as i`ve had people tell me that i`m contributing to the board in a positive way.
I try and start threads about guns also and if i can help someone with a gun issue i sure am ready.
Also about thick skin thin skin people, everyone is different and it would be boring if everyone was the same.
If people do their best to be nice and if they do say something that hurt someone they should immediately post and say their sorry.
No need for hard feelings anywhere and the ones that can`t help themselves from doing it should be asked to leave.

I don't usually read the non-gun threads; I do read the "non-levergun" gun threads and am guilty of both starting and contributing to non-levergun threads. However, as others have said; if you don't want to read them DO NOT OPEN THEM! Usually I can tell either by the title or the poster if I want to read it or not.

As for you Pitchy... The only problem that I have with you personally is... I find myself waking up in the middle of the night (several times a week) in a cold sweat with visions of you taking a hack saw to that Auto 5 of yours!!!

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:40 am

As for you Pitchy... The only problem that I have with you personally is... I find myself waking up in the middle of the night (several times a week) in a cold sweat with visions of you taking a hack saw to that Auto 5 of yours!!!

I plead the fifth

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:48 am

PITCHY,
DON'T WORRY ABOUT YOUR TOPICS, I LOVE 'EM. THEY SHOW JUST WHAT A PERSON CAN DO ONCE HE SETS HIS MIND TO IT.

MYSELF? WELL, CONSIDERING HOW LITTLE SHOOTING I'VE DONE IN THE LAST TWO OR THREE YEARS I'M LIABLE TO START POSTING STORIES ABOUT SEWING MACHINES.

MY WIFE AND I JUST PICKED UP THREE OF THEM. ONE IS OVER OR NEAR A 100 YEARS OLD AND USES NEEDLES LONG ENOUGH TO BE ARROWS.
TWO OTHERS ARE IN WOODEN CABINETS AND ONE OF THESE IS A REAL NICE PASTEL TURQUOISE GREEN.

HMMM, I WONDER WHAT THEY'D SAY OVER ON THE QUILTING FORUM IF I POSTED A THREAD ON HOW TO CLEAN A WINCHESTER 94?

JOE

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:56 am

J Miller wrote:PITCHY,
DON'T WORRY ABOUT YOUR TOPICS, I LOVE 'EM. THEY SHOW JUST WHAT A PERSON CAN DO ONCE HE SETS HIS MIND TO IT.

MYSELF? WELL, CONSIDERING HOW LITTLE SHOOTING I'VE DONE IN THE LAST TWO OR THREE YEARS I'M LIABLE TO START POSTING STORIES ABOUT SEWING MACHINES.

MY WIFE AND I JUST PICKED UP THREE OF THEM. ONE IS OVER OR NEAR A 100 YEARS OLD AND USES NEEDLES LONG ENOUGH TO BE ARROWS.
TWO OTHERS ARE IN WOODEN CABINETS AND ONE OF THESE IS A REAL NICE PASTEL TURQUOISE GREEN.

HMMM, I WONDER WHAT THEY'D SAY OVER ON THE QUILTING FORUM IF I POSTED A THREAD ON HOW TO CLEAN A WINCHESTER 94?

JOE

Any story will do....I'm sure your new passion will keep us in stitches. We might needle you a bit, but keep the threads coming.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:02 am

Any story will do....I'm sure your new passion will keep us in stitches. We might needle you a bit, but keep the threads coming.

Your good at that Blaine

Thanks Joe, i wasn`t trying to make an issue about myself i just wanted to point out that it makes a person feel like they don`t want to post OT.
I think the knowledge is still here in the most part and seems to show up when in need.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:18 am

HMMM, I WONDER WHAT THEY'D SAY OVER ON THE QUILTING FORUM IF I POSTED A THREAD ON HOW TO CLEAN A WINCHESTER 94?

Might as well, i posted pics of the sidecar over there.

I enjoy your posts too Joe and wish you would post more.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:22 am

J Miller wrote:PITCHY, DON'T WORRY ABOUT YOUR TOPICS, I LOVE 'EM. THEY SHOW JUST WHAT A PERSON CAN DO ONCE HE SETS HIS MIND TO IT.

I agree...!

JOE, ARE YOU TAKING OVER TERRY'S POSITION...?

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:29 am

Terry is a great guy any way you want to measure that. He is somewhat cranky at times and does not suffer fools lightly, but I dont view that as a flaw. These gun boards have lost many truly knowledable people over the years, because they got tired of having folks who don't know squat, telling them they were wrong about this or that.

These boards are festooned with armchair experts and keyboard distinguised marksmen. These "posers" can really get under a fellow's skin.

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:42 am

Mr. Murbach is a very knowledgable especially about anything firearm related. - True.
Mr. Murbach is a positive/friendly person. - False
Mr. Murbach only types in caps in Leverguns.com. - True.
Mr. Murbach knows how to carry on a civil conversation. - False.
I would like to have Mr. Murbach's wisdom and knowledge available on Leverguns.com. - True

Unfortunately, even though Mr. Murbach has infinate firearms knowledge, the last three posts I read from him weren't helping/giving of his knowledge/experience, they were critisizims of a newby's question. Rather than an answer, he severly badmouthed such a stupid question. (this is just from memory, I'm sure someone will check)

It gets really hard to ignore the curt, critical retorts to get through to his experience/knowledge. Mr. Murbach has a lot to give, and he sure has his "posse", but I don't have the time to deal with the negativity, critisizms of questions. Unfortunately I have questions, not having the opportunity to experience/learn many things about firearms first hand.

Kinda like having a jar of $50 gold pieces hidden in a bag of dirty diapers; ya gott go through a lotta sh@# to get to them...

later;
After I reread this post I realized how critical I was of Mr. Murbach, which I didn't mean. Most of the other posts have made Mr. Murbach a saint, and I just wanted to share my reasons why I don't miss some of his posts.

C'mon back you old curmudgeon!

GoatGuy · Post by **GoatGuy** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:55 am

Amen, Charles!

[quote="soon 2 retire" This whole "typing in all caps is shouting" notion gives me a serious case of the Red Bottom... [/quote] --

Yikes, not the dreaded RED BOTTOM! I hate it when that happens. Thanks Bob, your sentiment caused me to laugh my "bottom" off

I needed something to put a smile on my face today, thanks again.

As for Terry, I miss him very much as well. And his CAPS don't disturb me one dang bit, ...yet there were times his "pointed replys" to an OP may have caused me to flinch some. That said I wish he'd come back. I appreciate gaining knowledge from anyone who has been there and done that. No matter in what manner that wisdom is delivered.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:04 am

mikld wrote:Kinda like having a jar of $50 gold pieces hidden in a bag of dirty diapers; ya gott go through a lotta sh@# to get to them...

Well, the coffee that went out my nose just now at least cleared my sinuses out...