The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

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Sixgun
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The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by Sixgun »

Howdy guys,
First, Happy New Year! :D Second, We need to keep things interesting around here :D Third, on to business:

Last night, in anticipation of going to the gunclub today, I loaded up 5 rounds of 45 L. Colt with 40 grs. 3-F blackpowder behind a 255 gr. Lyman 454190 in very old Frankford Arsenal cases made in May of 1913. They looked OK and as I was using blackpowder with its low pressures...well, what the heck, lets have some fun with these old cases. :D

I only have close to 40 years of reloading experience and have read 3 million times NOT to use old cases.

So...after blasting off a hundred rounds of 45-90, 150 rounds of 38-40, some junk 9mm, and during shooting another 100 rounds out of this Colt New Service that was issued to the New York State Troopers (made in 1941--one of the last ones made) I decided to shoot this cylinder full of blackpowder loads

The first shot registered 875 fps. The second shot was 849 with some blowback. The case split a bit lengthwise and is the case pictured on the left. Then on the third shot, all heck broke loose, with smoke all over my face. The chronograph registered 581. I opened the cylinder and the case head fell out. My buddy Gunny said, "what the h#*l are you doing over there?" I laughed and said, "Hey, check this out!"

I always was a bit reckless---stupido---Italian for "stupid" :D

When the case head blew off, the forward portion of the body went into the cylinder throat. You can see the impression on the case to the right. The case body was near welded in the cylinder and had to wait until I got home to get it out, so I had a "5 shot" the rest of the day. Yea, I know--I'm "Retart of the Year"--------------Don't let it happen to you :wink: -----------------------Sixgun

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Whoa! You can see right through that baby! :D (notice small pistol primer size)
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JerryB
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by JerryB »

Well, will the rest of the old cases go into retirement?I got some old .45 Colt brass, but not that old. I started loading for mine in 1960, don't reckon I've got any of those cases left.
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Old Savage
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by Old Savage »

Well I typed something I thought would be funny considering that you are safe but I thought - that could be taken wrong so - glad you are safe.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

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Sixgun
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by Sixgun »

O.S., I'm from the East and we have thick skin around here. Go ahead, Not much can pi&* me off---except, don't mess with my guns or insult my dogs.

Jerry, yep, I trashed the whole lot of Frankford arsenal, along with some other ballon head cases from the thirties-------------Sixgun
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J Miller
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by J Miller »

Yep, been there, done that, still got some balloon head .45s I load occasionally.

If you wanna get rid of those you have left, just let me know, I'll gladly adopt them.

Joe
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by Old Savage »

Six I am easter of you Born in Burlington, NJ. In my tag line it says "On the cutting edge of going back in time." and I like the modern remakes of the old designs and I would prefer you shoot that stuff and keep all your parts together. By the way, the fellow who bought that 73 took it to Cody and they thought it was worth 3500 - 4000 and were very impressed with it as you were jumping the way you did just from the pics. Here's wishing you something better than that in the new year.

Coming in the new year are a 454 FA and an STI Texican I am making my resolution and you fellows can make yours. Hold me to it. :D
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

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Griff
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by Griff »

Balloon head cases? 6gun, 6gun... Glad to know you're safe.
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wecsoger
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by wecsoger »

Great to know you're all right, albeit a bit unsettled. It's a good safety lesson and good pictures to back it up.

Just remember though, first time is ignorance. *Second* time is stupidity. (grin)
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RIHMFIRE
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by RIHMFIRE »

ok...time for you to stand in the corner or something.... :wink:
glad nothin bad happened....
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by C. Cash »

Glad your alright Sixgun and thanks for the reminder. Well, my largely Scotch/Irish ancestry leads me down the same paths of impulsivity and potential self destruction. My bloodline does give me the ability to see my mistake the instant I'm making it, aparently, but never before...never before.
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by kimwcook »

Glad you're alright. Hope the piece is alright. As you, I've read a million times never to use the old balloon head cases. I don't have any old cases and don't expect to get any as I don't collect the old ammo. Again, glad you're alright.
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by jhrosier »

The problem might be not the balloon head cases, but the possibility that they were originally loaded and fired with mercuric primers. If so, the mercury would make the brass brittle as glass in short order.

This is not to discount that old brass is also subject to stress cracking. I have some .42 Russian Berdan military ammo that has cracked lengthwise from the primer pocket through the head and most of the way to the neck. This is original issue ammo with balloon head cases. Other ammo from the same loading APPEARS as new.

Jack
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by Sixgun »

jhrosier wrote:The problem might be not the balloon head cases, but the possibility that they were originally loaded and fired with mercuric primers. If so, the mercury would make the brass brittle as glass in short order.
Jack
Absolutely right. And you know somethin' , I kinda knew it. On a semi-regular basis, I shoot Frankford Arsenal 30-40 Krag brass that was made in 1907 and 1911. I have at least 20 loadings out of it. (with cast @1800)But...........it was new/old when I got it. I annealed the necks and its fine.
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by AJMD429 »

If old brass cartridge cases get 'brittle' - what about old brass CANNON barrels...! :shock:
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by BenT »

Sixgun , you always keep things interesting around here. You keep this up you might get this websites entertainer of the year award.
765x53
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by 765x53 »

AJMD429 wrote:If old brass cartridge cases get 'brittle' - what about old brass CANNON barrels...! :shock:
Cannon barrels are bronze. A different alloy.
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by OldWin »

Glad you are ok sixgun. It could have been a lot worse. Being from the NORTH east, I'm not only thick-skinned but cheap haha! I've pushed my luck with bad cases too. As I'm digging a separated 44wcf from a 92 chamber I wonder just what I was thinking. :roll:
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by piller »

I learned a long time ago that I could make enough mistakes of my own and still learn from the mistakes of others. I will keep this mistake in mind and learn from it so that I don't have to repeat your mistake.
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Mike D.
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by Mike D. »

Now you've got me wondering if I should load some unfired Rem-UMC brass marked 33 CF. It's "new" brass from the 1930s. :?
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by Nath »

765x53 wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:If old brass cartridge cases get 'brittle' - what about old brass CANNON barrels...! :shock:
Cannon barrels are bronze. A different alloy.
Considerably thicker too :D

Count ya fingers Sixgun :)

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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by Sixgun »

Mike D. wrote:Now you've got me wondering if I should load some unfired Rem-UMC brass marked 33 CF. It's "new" brass from the 1930s. :?
Mike,
I have a fetish with "old things". When I am hunting, I even want my brass to say "45-90" or "33 W.C.F." etc. even though I have tons of the new stuff. But..........in the case of "new old stock" such as yours, I would refrain unless its cast bullets with light charges. I'm not doing it anymore unless the brass is post war and even then only in light to moderate pressure loads.

I've done all sorts of stupid stuff over the years and I wonder why I am even alive. I've shot 45-70's (ammo)from the 1880's, oh, I could go on for hours, so lets leave it alone. :D Wait a minute--you wanna hear somethin'? Back in the late seventies, a buddy of mine stopped over in a '76 Trans Am and bragged how he made this sharp turn down the road at 75 mph. I said, "big deal", I'll do it at 90. So off I went in my '78 Trans Am (his was green, mine was red) And I did it---90 mph. stupid stupid stupid. I just never seem to learn. "Stupid" must be tattooed on my forehead. Two months after that I hit a tree head on at 60 with that car. Spent 2 weeks in the hospital and most of my front teeth were found on the floor.

Yea guys, Sometimes in life you may get away with it 1,000 times, and then on the 1,001 time---bammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :D :D I know, I've got the scars to prove it.

Thanks on all the "O.K.'s" guys. Most things in shooting are common sense. Even though I was blessed with plenty of it, I use it AFTER the accident. :D Stay col bro's----Now I gotta go see what I can get myself into! :D ---------------------*************---------------Sixgun
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Cimarron Red
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by Cimarron Red »

Hey, Jack,

Quit rolling those dice! Glad you're unscathed!
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by fordwannabe »

Yeah Jack, glad your ok. I would hate to be the only one at the Lebanon gunshow next weekend that knows what the good guns are.thanks for the info on the 30-30 reloads also. Tom
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Re: The Dangers Of Using Old Brass

Post by w30wcf »

Sixgun,
Happy New Year to you as well! :D Sorry to hear of your :shock: experience but glad that everything is intact.
As was mentioned, most likely that/those cases were fired with mercuric primers that will attack the brass structure.

I have about about 150 balloon head 44-40 cases that I have reloaded numerous times and they are still doing fine. The reason that they are is because they were original factory cartridges that had not been fired and I dissected them and replaced the mercuric primers with current ones. I also have about 100 45 Colt balloon head cases that were given the same treatment and they are doing fine as well. I did anneal all those cases to guard against any split necks due to the age of the brass.
Mike D. wrote:Now you've got me wondering if I should load some unfired Rem-UMC brass marked 33 CF. It's "new" brass from the 1930s. :?
Mike,
As long as they have not been fired, personally, I would anneal the necks and use them. I have some WRA CO 30WCF brass from the late 1800's-early 1900's that I got by dissecting the unfired factory cartridges and replacing the mercuric primers with fresh ones after annealing the case necks. They have been reloaded numerous times and are still working just fine. :D

w30wcf
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