OT: Some of you guys make me feel old.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:34 pm

Some of you guys are making me feel old.
You're saying things like; my eyes aren't as good as they used to be so I won't buy this or that lever gun cos I can't easily scope it. Or like one poster said about the Mossberg lever gun, he'd buy it because he could scope it.

I'm 58 as of last August. I'm near sighted, wearing bi-focals that are nearly 10 years old, can't see up close with them (can't see the sights), but I can see WAAAAAY far away with 'em. To shoot my lever guns I take my specs off and use my safety glasses. Last year I was banging the 200 yd ram with my No4 Mk1 and it's military peep sights and my Marlin 1894 Cowboy and it's open barrel sights ... without my glasses.

I'm beginning to see scope as an old fogies crutch

. I'm getting old, my eyes aren't as good as they once were either, but I won't scope my lever guns. No, nada, nyet, zip, nope, ain't gonna happen.
Matter of fact I only got one scoped rifle and I've never shot a round out of it cos it don't have iron sights and I hate scopes.

I'm gonna be contrary, you guys can have your cheaters, I'll stick with the irons.
Getting old ain't for the weak at heart. I'm gonna stick it out and use irons till I take that dirt nap.

Getting old ....... bah!!! Some of you guys are sissies.

Joe

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:49 pm

Peep sights are crutches too

...But they provide a nice out

...what with eliminating the trhree points of focus thing

Tang peeps were the old timers trick for not having to buy glasses...

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:56 pm

Yeah, could be, but we still gotta have those darn eye glasses. Even my wife who had the cataract surgery with replacement lenses still has to use reading glasses.

Joe

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:57 pm

It's a small world after all .... Once upon a time long ago in a galaxy far away ...... Yo ho ho ho it's a pirates life for me .... Puff the magic dragon .... and they lived happily ever after .... able to leap tall buildings in a single bound ... Hi Oh Silver away !!!! born on a mountain top in Tennessee .... I'm Mike Fink, king of the river... wild as a wind in Oregon roarin' up a canyon ... once he get's his dander up .... tearin' across the Texas plain ... he wore a cane and derby hat .... where will you be campin tonight ??? you're a daisy if your do ...

mav · Post by **mav** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:58 pm

Getting old may not be all fun. But consider the alternative.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:59 pm

J Miller wrote:Some of you guys are making me feel old.
You're saying things like; my eyes aren't as good as they used to be so I won't buy this or that lever gun cos I can't easily scope it. Or like one poster said about the Mossberg lever gun, he'd buy it because he could scope it.

I'm 58 as of last August. I'm near sighted, wearing bi-focals that are nearly 10 years old, can't see up close with them (can't see the sights), but I can see WAAAAAY far away with 'em. To shoot my lever guns I take my specs off and use my safety glasses. Last year I was banging the 200 yd ram with my No4 Mk1 and it's military peep sights and my Marlin 1894 Cowboy and it's open barrel sights ... without my glasses.

I'm beginning to see scope as an old fogies crutch . I'm getting old, my eyes aren't as good as they once were either, but I won't scope my lever guns. No, nada, nyet, zip, nope, ain't gonna happen.
Matter of fact I only got one scoped rifle and I've never shot a round out of it cos it don't have iron sights and I hate scopes.

I'm gonna be contrary, you guys can have your cheaters, I'll stick with the irons.
Getting old ain't for the weak at heart. I'm gonna stick it out and use irons till I take that dirt nap.

Getting old ....... bah!!! Some of you guys are sissies.

Joe

Yep, right up to the day you either do, or quit shooting. Glass allows many of us to shoot accurately long after it would be possible without it. I'd rather "cheat" than allow pride to cause me to wound an animal, and then loose it.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:05 pm

Come on guys, don't take my comments personal.

My not using scopes has nothing to do with pride. I ... just ... don't ... like ... them. Peep sights, open irons, OK, scopes - no.

Fred, if I had enough spendable money to donate $50.00 for each miss, I wouldn't be in IL. I'd be somewhere much closer to you, AND, I'd have me some super duper glasses I could see with.
~AND~ I'd be shooting every other weekend like I used to. ~AND~ I'd have me a whole bunch more rifles. ~AND~ well, that's enough of that.

Joe

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:15 pm

Joe, just cuz they hadn't invented 'specs' yet when you were a kid, don't mean they're all bad...

OTOH, I always respect 'contrary' and 'stubborn', so stick with the iron-sights as long as you want.

I've been known to be stubborn about a few things now and again, myself...

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:19 pm

Hey Joe - I thought this was all about a halloween spoof.

And you were just obviously stirring the pot in anticipation of an electoral tsunami.

Let's see, what do I have without a scope in rifle .22, 30-30s, 30-06, 357, 44, 45, 444 pretty well equipped out to about 225 I would say.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:22 pm

When We set the "bar" high for personal reasons it is only "We" who have to live with the results. Then "We" answer to the Man in the mirror each day.
In My first five years of deer hunting I killed five whitetails from the ground . two with a bow weighed 190 field dressed and I had them mounted. I was single, Young and in the woods all the time. I then decided to do it only the hard way,on the ground with a longbow or recurve.I got Married,less time in the woods and then averaged a deer every two to three years. friends of mine killed a deer every year from their treestand.I made tag soup.
Sometimes at night I am haunted by the shots or stalks I flubbed. it's all our choice.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:31 pm

Old Savage wrote:Hey Joe - I thought this was all about a halloween spoof. And you were just obviously stirring the pot in anticipation of an electoral tsunami.

Fred, I hadn't thought of that. Tuesday is "THE DAY" isn't it? Oh goodie I get to go tell 'em what I think. Whooo Hoooo!

As for a spoof for halloween, hmmmmm, I hadn't thought of that either. Perhaps I shouldn't look in the mirror tonight

.45Colt,
I guess that's the way I became accustomed to hunting having lived in AZ for so long. Back there nobody used tree stands, and you almost never heard of ground blinds other than when talking to a varmint hunter.

Like Old Savage has said many times the ranges out west can stretch a waaaaay out yonder. But back here where folks shoot a less than a 100 yds 99% of the time I see no need for a scope. My point of view rarely ever matches other peoples. Here I see folks putting scopes on shot guns that will never be fired past 50 yards.
I just can't do it.

Joe

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:49 pm

Well, I didnt used to like scopes either. I used them a little, but had very good eyesight and could shoot pretty well with good irons. There were things I didn't mind using glass on, but most of my shooting and hunting was with irons. As time went on, and I had to be able to identify a certain number of antler points to be legal in some hunts, early or late light, longer shots or no shots, and eyesight that wasn't quite as good as it once was, I'm really liking scopes. I can still shoot decent groups on paper with irons (paper usually has nice contrasting colors, unlike game), and hit the 300 and 600 yard steel plates, but I can't do it in as many different conditions. I walk my dogs along the base of the mountains nearly every day. There's many forms of varmints that can cause trouble. With glass, I can clearly see what's happening 300 or so yards away, and make decent shots at that range and more. With good quality glass, I can clearly see the 300 and 600 yard plates to make a shot, when I can't even see them with the naked eye due to failing light. Even moonlight is OK. I walk in winter in the moonlight with confidence when I have a rifle with glass. A rifle with glass isn't as handy to carry, but I've figured out a way to carry a bolt gun in hand that's not too bad. The tradeoff in the conditions that it gives me a clear advantage is well worthwhile. When the advantage isn't as great, or just depending on my mood, I carry iron sighted guns.

Maybe I'm not a "sportsman", or a "real hunter", but when I spend the money on a tag and hunt, I plan on making meat. If glass makes it more likely to connect, I use it.

With all due respect Joe, you're range shooting. You need to get out of that country and get some quality field time, and the chance to shoot some game again. I don't doubt you'll still not like scopes, but I'd guess you may be more willing to use them a bit.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:00 pm

Joe, you are old. We all are. Well most of us anyway.

Happy halloween old man.

airedaleman · Post by **airedaleman** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:12 pm

I'm 71, and this post has me pretty well convinced...

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:20 pm

Well, Joe, you're right about one thing....you ARE old

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:38 pm

If I was back there in the woods, I would like to use a 92 - maybe in 45 Colt like my Rossi or the new 44 mag B92. I like those little rifles and I did take my 45-70 this year and ended up using the 4x scope at about 25 yds. That worked OK by the way. But, first I used a 243 at 275 and did not hit the soccer ball - thus the need for the 45-70.

What I really might like to use is my New Englander with round ball or my 25-35.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:41 pm

It's all about attitude. I'm not old. My wife is however... about 12-½ years ago... as I was riding to victory in a mounted shooting competition, I had a little set-back. My horse of less than perfect coordination... then, a spry 13 year old, at a full gallop, midway around a turn at a balloon topped pole... slipped and went to her chest in a greasy patch of arena... I casually (with my heart up in the my throat), slipped my feet outta the stirrups, and prepared to launch myself off her back, outta the saddle, as soon as she indicated which direction she was going to roll over... Part of my mind was trying to decide whether I would try throwing myself off her back in the direction of her roll, or try for between her legs in the opposite direction of her roll... Another part of my mind was considering re-holstering my sixgun... droppin' it was a disqualification, but at least another quarter was frozen in place, over the fear of being hurt, and unable to work... the vast majority was wonderin' Is my HEALTH INSURANCE paid up?

Anyway, the horse was apparently trying to maintain some semblence of stability as she just slid along, perfectly upright and then, somehow, jumped back to her feet, with me still solidily planted in the middle of my saddle. This was no small surprise. It was totally unexpected. Up to this point I had expertly blown up all balloons and only had one more to pop outta the first gun, turn another corner, race to the far end of the arena and pop 5 more all lined up in a straight line...

You lifelong horsemen probably have experienced the galloping about, the slightly uncontrolled feeling when your foot slips from a stirrup... well both doubles that sensation. And, since I'm certainly no expert horseman, coming to some measure of experience later in life... (my teens), with only limited access since, I still need that foot planted in the stirrup security, especially in turns... At any rate... this was COMPETITION!!!! One does not just "roll over" and quit! And so I braved on in the face of sheer terror, and finished the stage as fast as she was able... The whole time she was runnin' down the line of balloons, and I was shootin' said balloons, I was trying to get the toes of my boots in some sorta close proximity to my stirrups. Failing miserably. Have you ever tried to stop 1100 lbs of runaway horse inside of 30' with no point of leverage? Surprisingly, this horse, who had heretofore shown a definite lack of willingness to engage in athletic and graceful moves... with the merest of pulls, slid to as pretty a straight-line sliding stop as you would want from a champion reining horse! She had better've... any turn and I've have fallen out of the saddle as slick as snot on a Louisiana swamp!

And there stood my wife... both hands on hips... and one of her famous one-liners about to impart the whole of her feelings... "you stupid, stupid, boy... you're 48 years old, think you're 24 and act like you're 12..." she then turned and stomped off... leaving my sitting there, astride my steed, looking at a friend, who I asked, "...what's the problem?"

Joe, I ain't aged a day in the last 36 years... I'm still 24!

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:46 pm

Joe, you say you only own 1 rifle with a scope. Well, you're 1 ahead of me. I don't own a scope and have never owned one. To me, it's not about hitting the center of the bull. If it was, I'd move my seat to within 1 foot of the target and fire away. To me it's about doing the best I can with the tools that I have. I've always been too tight to buy a scope, so that leaves me with doing the best I can with irons. Hitting the target center once in a while is just a side benefit. I enjoy feeling the "click" of the sear breaking, hearing the "bang", feeling the "whump" on my shoulder, and occasionally, hearing the "whack" of the bullet hitting the target. Yea, the eyes are going, but that just makes it a more interesting challenge.

BTW, I don't hunt anymore so no animals were injured in making this post.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:16 pm

Guess I am lucky!
My vision is still real good.(I do prefer iron sights myself for woods hunting).
I will admit on more than one occasion though I have had to let a deer pass where with a scoped gun
could have taken the shot? Its just about personal choice.
Most of the time in the deep woods 75 yards is a pretty long shot, so iron sights in those conditions do me well. On the same token there has been quite a few times when quietly walking up a log road like just after a rainstorm etc. with the wind in my face where I have shot a nice buck that was jumped and if I had a scoped gun( I wouldnt have got em) so one washes the other!
But when the eyes go bad/or you just like scopes----------I say if it floats your boat(put er in the water)

Also I will be truthful,where I live we have a lot of Big Bear.(so when I walk out in the pitch black woods holding my little element flashlight "by myself" I have a much more comfortable feeling with my open sighted Raybar sight painted with glow paint that's glowing. Last year the night before going out I watched Cujo

Old Ranger · Post by **Old Ranger** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:53 pm

Well folks, I used a scope in the early days of my "serious" shooting in the jungles and such and later when teaching long range stuff for Uncle Sam. But I always loved shooting open sighs on my old Sharps and Trapdoors. My dad always said "Puttin' a scope on a levergun is like drawin' a mustache on the Mona Lisa."

Joe I do the same. My eyes don't see good with the glasses on with the sights. Use them to see the target then push 'em up and shoot without the glasses. I can hit well that way. Gotta admit that I do have one scope on my Marlin GG. It's a little 1.5-4x with mid-dot and all. I have to admit my groups have shrunk to tiny little things at 100 though...But they scope comes off easy and I mostly pop this little cannon with the stock sights about 90% of the time. So I gotta be a 10% sissy

To each his own I guess. My son has a 4-16x monster scope on his Savage 99. I really gave him fits about it until I put the little scope on my Marlin. But then again, He's only 38 and was an MP! Poor lad....

Later guys!

Wade

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:47 pm

Griff, you are amazing, you oughta be writin' not drivin' only thing close to you is/was Skeeter Skelton but I think you got him.

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:26 pm

I'm with you, Joe. I can still shoot irons pretty darn well as long as I don't forget my speck-tackles

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:37 pm

Well you know, I don't see guys from the west chiming in on the irons. I think you woodsy guys should go look at shooting at longer distances not as easy to judge. I recall a group went down to 86ers a couple years ago and had an awakening on some shots.

rodeo kid · Post by **rodeo kid** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:08 am

Joe, you are still young yet. I felt the same way as you do when I was your age. Give yourself another ten years and you may change your tune, I was reluctant but had to. Anything over 40 or 50yds and I can't see well enough for humane kills. I still use my 9422 & Henry .22lrCarbine up to 40yds or so on squirrels with good results, but thats about it. God Bless.

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:21 am

Old Savage wrote:Well you know, I don't see guys from the west chiming in on the irons. I think you woodsy guys should go look at shooting at longer distances not as easy to judge. I recall a group went down to 86ers a couple years ago and had an awakening on some shots.

We actually have quite a bit of open country here, which I often hunt, while the other nimrods are flogging the woods and pushing them out. Consequently, I practice a lot at 200 yards and further. Last two kills have been 170 and 212 yards respectively, with the shorter being made with an OEM sighted Mini 14. I did cheat and use a 4x scope on the longer one, but I made that one from the front yard with a cup of coffee cooling next to my lawn chair. Some years back I killed one at about 235 with an aperture-sighted '94.

Granted, these aren't long shots by western standards but they aren't deep-woods distances either. I choose them carefully and probably pass a lot of shots that other fellas would take- and make.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:43 am

Well Sarge I wonder what my longest distance I could shoot at would be with iron sights. We had a 12" disc at 200 yds at the local range. It was easy enough to quarter it with a scope sighted rifle of say 270 or 6mm class and it was easy enough to hit with irons. But, the sighting was to indistinct to reliably quarter it at that distance and we knew the distance and this was off a bench. Now people will show you that they can hit all kinds of targets at known distances but let those be unknown with the type of rifles that irons are on and I think that all goes out the window. I think the ability to see the target distinctly is a very important key and then combine that with a flat shooting rifle and of course we have a combination that is not comparable. This is obvious but there is some sort of emotional component here that defies logic and comes up regularly. And I watched Magic Johnson throw a basketball in from 55 ft at the buzzer but let him try that ten times. Of course shots can be made.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:01 am

Awww--- cmon Joe ------- as i mentioned in an earlier post, think about what Custer would have done with an AR-15 and a M70 rifle with 24x glass

But if you like irons better ----- rock and roll

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:33 am

Streetstar wrote:Awww--- cmon Joe ------- as i mentioned in an earlier post, think about what Custer would have done with an AR-15 and a M70 rifle with 24x glass

But if you like irons better ----- rock and roll

as long as your wishing...1 cobra with twin mini-guns 1 pass and in 10 minutes he would have been drinking coffee with the men.

I still shoot iron sights.mostly my military rifles and winchesters.I had my eyes checked last week and I do need some new reading glasses.it had been 8 years since the last check.
last time out at the range I when shooting my finn M28/30.we fired off a set and a cease fire and went to check targets.the guy looked at my target and said hey you don't have a scope

.
I think part of the problem today is the younger guys never even learn how to use irons.most show up at the range with a rifle and a scope.its rare that they even know how to use a sling for shooting off hand.
sad stuff.
pete

from my uncle frank.WWII combat vet.

they make auto transmissions for people that can't drive and put scopes on rifles for people that can't shoot.
he is 92 and still kicking.

jlchucker · Post by **jlchucker** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:36 am

We should be proud of Geezerhood. It's a distinction that takes decades to earn, and only the best of us make it. When we get there, we're obligated to relate our experiences to the next generation. It's what we do.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:49 am

Old Savage wrote:Well you know, I don't see guys from the west chiming in on the irons. I think you woodsy guys should go look at shooting at longer distances not as easy to judge. I recall a group went down to 86ers a couple years ago and had an awakening on some shots.

You do have a valid point on that one OS
I mean out to 200 yards for standing still deer in the open I am good to go open sighted with my (Model 70 7MM Mag)but I always anymore seem to hunt the woods? Also out west 200yds aint nothing!

The real downside "for me" comes when you are in the woods and lets say your 70yds away and is this nice buck wandering through the thicker trees/branches etc. With a good scope could have picked "that opening" even if its quite small for that shot.
But I am stubborn and have this hang up on taking my stuff especially in the last 5 yrs open sighted.
Dont like trees stands or any type lure/bait. To me it just isnt a fair chase???

Back in 1987 hunting in Troy, Pa ---my brother-in-law kept bugging me for like a month(please just try my deer stand)bla,bla,bla please/please?????
OK----one time! 7:15am first day this 11 point (205lb)buck walked up to within 20yds and just stood there
rubbing/peeing/sniffing etc. and I mean like forever. He had "no clue" of me like he was a Helen Keller Deer also missing smell. Honestly, I wasnt even going to shoot the poor thing, but ending up doing it.Why????

Driving home down deep in my guts I felt like I cheated/disgraced the animal.
Next year,went out hunting my old way(All year did not see one horn)only time ever.
Figured I was punished from the deer Gods!

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:19 am

I'll be 63 a week from today, have astigmatisms, cataracts, and need blended lenses to see anything near or far. I've had a bad hip, back and leg for 40+ years courtesy of the US Army and the RVN and couldn't be happier with my life now. My wife of 37yrs and I are happier now than ever, my life is peaceful and fulfilling and I feel blessed for the good fortune we've shared. So much for getting older!

As to shooting with scopes, I have exactly 2 rifles with scopes and both are ARs. My A4 rifle is my dedicated precision 300yd shooter. With it's 12x scope on a good day I can still hit the 2½" x 3" 'leg' of our steel ram. My other other AR, a shorter middy, has a scope with a quick disconnect mount and I've noticed that for the 200yd and shorter shots I'm taking it off and using the BUIS.

All my other guns have iron sights and my 24" Rossi with the tang sight is mostly responsible for my renewed interest and skills shooting with them. With my stick on aperture trick I've talked about here, even the std sights on my Rossi carbine can be made serviceable.

What's the point of this post? I could sit and stew about getting older and the physical challenges I have acquired, yes I could. However, I've decided to look to each new day as a gift to enjoy, work to conquer the challenges it presents, be happy with where I am today, grateful for the true friends I've made, and proud of the road I've traveled to get here. Attitude is your choice, not something you're forced to accept.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:55 am

What,

a scope on an AR

why that is a sacrilege of the first order

Why I have put thousands of rounds through one of those. Well Truth be told it was an M16 but still. Qualified expert with the thing

shooting those half silhouettes out to 300 yds. Offhand too. Now that kneeling position was a bugaboo to me - old football injury you understand, where is that pumped chest emoticon???? Now you are a couple of days older than me but still - Steve - you get that scope off of there and shoot those things like Samuel L intended goldarn it

A scope on an AR, why I never ...... and another thing - let's see a real picture of you up there or I will post another lady picture somewhere here.

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:03 am

+1 I had no problem making the 300 meter dance with A1 sights

pete

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:09 am

Of course you understand - that was then and this is now and any challenges to prove it will be with that in mind.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:24 am

Steve,
This is one of them pointless spur of the moment posts that just is. Nothing important to it really, easily ignorable.

Old Savage, and others

You're talking about quartering the target with the cross hairs and hitting it with a flat shooting type cartridge.
I'm thinking most of the trouble people have with longer distance target is the sights. If you'll look at the factory irons on 99% of the lever guns made today they have a huge "U" shaped trough at the rear and humongous bead at the front. This is a horrible sight set up for anything but across the room shooting. No precision at all.
Look at the sights on the many old turn of the last century rifles and most of them have smaller groves in the rear sights and either very small beads or posts at the front. Much better for precision shooting.
On both my Marlin 1894 Cowboy and the front sight I bought for my Marlin MR-7 the beads where monstrous. I've replaced them with small 1/16" beads. This is much better as it does not obliterate the target.

Better yet is a very narrow front post with a aperture rear sight. This is the ticket for long distance iron sights. Just ask forum member Wind ( who is AWOL at this time ) and his group up in WA. How many threads did he post where they were shooting at 4, 5, 6, up to 800 yards with iron sights and hitting the targets with lever guns? Quite a few really.
Or ask Don McDowell about his BPCR matches. Ask them guys and pay attention.

Another thing that affects iron sight accuracy is shooting styles. Many (including myself) use the 6:00 hold where the top of the front sight no matter what design is held at the bottom of the target with the bullets hitting right at the top of the sight. This leaves the target open and visible to the shooter. More precise shooting can be done with this style because you can see your target and the area around it.

The other style is where the bead is the bullet and the bead is held over the target with the bullets hitting behind the bead. At any range past the end of your front yard that bead obliterates the vision of the target. You cannot see it, cos the bead covers it up. No precision at all. Seriously, you can't hit accurately what you can't see.

What it comes down to is iron sights and scopes require a different type of mindset. We've seen it here on Leverguns quite a lot. There's actually quite a schism between the two mindsets as well. Instead of allowing those of us who prefer irons sights to post our thoughts without criticism the scope users invariably dis us when threads about not wanting scopes come up. How many times have you heard the comments that you need a scope to shoot out west. Well, sorry guys but that's bullshiq. You don't.
Remember I was raised out west in New Mexico and Arizona, you only know me since I got to IL and was introduced to the internet. My rifle shooting has come to an almost standstill since I've gotten here. But I remember the long ranges I used to shoot at in AZ. It is not that hard to shoot long ranges, (and I'm not talking about gun ranges, I almost never used them), when you have time to get out and practice.

Scopes are not a requirement to shoot long ranges, but you do need a good iron sight set up and the proper mindset to do it. Troughs and huge beads just won't cut it.

Joe

Now, if anybody gets their knickers in a bunch because of anything I've said on "this" post, ......... oh well.

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:25 am

I might be just a tad thicker but the eye balls still work

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:17 pm

I am sixty eight years old and about two years ago, the front sight of my rifles started to get a little fuzzy. I tried the Merit disc, which made it sharper, but very dim. So, I went to my eye doctor and he made me a pair of shooting classes that give me sharp focus from about 20 inches to infinity. I can now shoot irons and peep sights as well as I ever could.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:28 pm

Some of you might forget that letting the back sight go fuzzy, or in the case of a peep, disappear altogether is not only ok, it's the proper way to shoot..at least IMO

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:03 pm

There's quite a difference between being in the wide open spaces with an iron sighted rifle... practicing on distant high contrast targets...than taking a shot on a low contrast well blending game animal... For sport, and the "pumped chest" factor, irons win... Now if yer really hungry...

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:29 pm

Never has been a question that people can hit as noted high contrast targets at known distances that they have worked out the sight picture on. We were shooting a steel some figure off hand at 600 yds last year but that as noted is different than shooting low contrast targets at unknown ranges with the type of cartridge normally used with iron sights - not that it can't be done but it is a much lower percentage situation.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:54 pm

Lest ye all think me a blasphemer, I said I do shoot my middy mostly with the iron BUIS. Ever since early last year when I got my two Rossis and put the tang sight on my 24" rifle, I've really come back to the iron sights. I'm amazed what I can still do with them.

Also, concerning military experiences. Like many, I had terrific eyesight being blessed with 20/12 as measured by the Dr. I shot Expert in basic (we were trained on the M-14) and that included 600yd targets too. And yes, all those years ago I did it with irons. While 'in country' I only used an M16 a few times because I was packing something a bit bigger so I never really got good with it (not mine but just like it).

Of note; I was 21 years old in RVN which is ⅓ of my age now. These days if I'm going for precision at long range with my 63yr old eyes, I shoot with a scope. My 20" A4 with the 12x scope is my choice for shooting the 2½" x 3" rear 'leg' of this 19" wide 'hog' target plate on the left at 300yds (the 'ram' I've mentioned in other posts is the same size and basic shape).

With practice and my 68grn Hornadys over a charge of TAC, I can still hit that 'leg' 5 out of 6 times with this rifle. I not too proud to say that I think that's phenomenal. BTW, note that it also has BUIS on it too. I've used them with success to hit the 24" round plate at 300yds but in truth, I can't even see the 'hog' that far away without the scope.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:06 pm

Joe, I often think of you, so much so that some times I screw the scope off my 9422 and go have a ball shoot'n at squirls with the stock sights and yes it makes for a much nicer carry too

Oh and too still think I'm 24! Except after a day's walking

Nath.

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:24 pm

JOE, HOW OLD WOULD YOU BE IF YOU DID NOT KNOW HOW OLD YOU WERE !!!???

AGE IS 90 % BETWEEN OUR EARS. THE OTHER 10% IS BETWEEN OUR LEGS !!!!!!

I HAD BI-FOCALS IN FOURTH GRADE AND MY VISION IS 20/400 WITHOUT MY GLASSES. I CAN SEE ANY OPEN SIGHTS, USE ANY APERTURE SIGHTS, AND CANNOT REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I SHOT A RIFLE WITH A SCOPE ON IT. I TAKE SEVERAL SIXGUNS TO THE EYE DR'S [ "DID YOU BRING YOUR NEAT GUN FOR ME TO SEE?"....'REPEATER OR SINGLE SHOT' ??..] FOR HER TO MEASURE VOCAL LENGTH FROM EYE-TO-SIGHTS AND I USE TRI-FOCALS NOW THAT WORK PERFECTLY.
MY ONLY CONCERN ABOUT GROWING OLDER IS THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE WE HAVE TO CONSIDER. OTHER THAN THAT I DON'T CARE HOW OLD I AM NOW, NOR DO I GIVE IT A MOMENTS NOTICE EXCEPT WHEN I CANNOT REMEMBER YOUR NAME FOR SOUR OWL SHIQ !!! THAT FRUSTRATES ME TO NOOOOOO END !!!!!

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:31 pm

Terry, your back!!!! Thought you'd got lost in them hills! Praise be to the Lord

No need shout! Or is it your age?

Nath.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:30 pm

Scopes are a fine tool for hunting, when you want quick shots, and you need to pick your target out of the foliage. And in poor lighting conditions, pre-dawn, post-dusk. And when you don't want to shoot another hunter.

You don't hunt anyway, right? And you have to use a shotgun in Illinois if you do. It doesn't make much difference what you use to punch paper. Might as well be a purist at the target range in nice weather at high noon.

My big beef about scopes is I don't like carrying them and cleaning them after a day of hunting. But they're nice to shoot with.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:29 pm

Hey Terry,

How old would I be if I didn't know how old I was?

Now that is a mouthful of a question. The answer, maybe 40 or so.

I wanna meet your eye Dr, I like the sounds of her. That is the thing I'm going to do when I get my next set of specs. As long as I can keep shooting with corrective lenses I'll be shooting iron sights.

Nath,
Don't tell anybody here at Leverguns, but some years back I actually mounted a scope on my 9422. What a dismal failure. I never could find my target unless I was looking at a stationary target at the range.
When out in the field, if I saw a target of opportunity, I'd shoulder the rifle and never could find the darn target. I'd have to move my head to the side, get my eyes fixed on the target then move the scope into my line of sight without blinking. What a pain in the behind. That is one of the reasons I don't use scopes.

Oh, please lets not get started on the all caps posts. Just read the words and go from there.

Joe

oldguy · Post by **oldguy** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:03 pm

From the west coast. Old Savage you have my proxy.

Terry. thank you for posting
oldguy.

Old Shatterhand · Post by **Old Shatterhand** » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:25 am

The are two scoped rifles in my cabinet, but I don't like to use them, as I prefer irons. The scope on my m/88 sits in a pivot mount, which means that I can switch to irons in a heartbeat; the scope on the .22 Hornet is detachable, so I usually carry it in the pocket.

Shooting with the scope is like a computer game. There you see the target on the screen, catch it with the reticle and press the mouse button. It is the same with the scope. You don't see the target but a picture of it. With only irons you see the target with the naked eye, catch it with the bead and press the trigger without any thinking or calculation. You don't know how or when, but the rifle goes bang, and the bull's eye is hit.

Btw. - I too is getting older, and the rear sight goes diffuser for every season. I have been told, that you can't hit with a blurred rear sight, but I don't care about that. I still go on hitting the target. without glasses.

F.

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:26 am

In one case here we are talking real shooting and in the other we are talking target shooting.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:25 am

So Fred; what you're telling me is that all my range time, all the time I spent shooting in the AZ desert, was pseudo shooting? And only people that use scopes are doing real shooting? Is that what you're saying?

I think you've been bamboozled by all those good looking gals you hang around with.

Joe