What to do with an unsatisfactory lever gun????

[J Miller]

Several years ago I got a reallllllllllllllly good deal on a 1950 vintage Win 94 in 30-30. It was literally brand new, just no box, hang tags or owners manual.

Pre 64 Win 94 b web.JPG

Since then I've pretty much figured out why this carbine was in nearly unused condition.
It splits cases:

Splin RP cases 2.JPG

Split Win cases 2.JPG

Factory loads and hand loads.

I've recently dug out some cases fired in this Winchester and measured them. I'm conferring with another forum member who has done some measuring of his cases shot from a rifle with an over sized chamber and has some notes we can check as soon as he finds them. But at this point the measurements I've come up with make it look like an over sized forward part of the chamber.
Here is what I've come up with so far:

Firing pin hits off center. Using the firing pin impact as a reference and orienting it at 12:00 the case neck splits happen all around the case neck. No particular location.

The case mouth ID runs around .310" ± on all the cases I measured.
The case mouth OD of the unsized cases runs .335" to .339". The necks are not round.
The case mouth OD of the partially sized cases runs .325" to .326". .010" to .013" difference.

The measurements were taken with a dial caliper and so are not as accurate as I could have gotten with a case run out guage or dial indicater.

Here is a pic of the partially sized cases:

IMG_0039.JPG

Hand loads / R-P factory / Winchester factory

I've yet to get some Cerrosafe to do a chamber cast with, but once I do I'm pretty much sure of what I'm going to find.

Once that's done, I'm faced with two alternatives.
A: Sell or trade it with full disclosure of course ( I have no desire for another "project" gun at this time. I'd much rather trade it for a newer top eject one already drilled and tapped for a receiver sight. That I can shoot without loosing cases.)

B: Rebarrel it. ( Don't want to as I don't have the money to spend on it now.)

As it is right now it is unuseable to me. It's split more cases by itself than every other 30-30 I've ever owned combined and I've got less than 100 rounds through it. That is unsatisfactory.

Just for my curiosity, what would you guys do in this situation?

Joe

[Ben_Rumson]

Anneal case necks and see what happens.. Consider making it an AI 30 30

[O.S.O.K.]

You could have it rechambered to 30-30 Ackley Improved. That would fix the splitting. You handload, so that would be no big deal = just need to get a set of AI dies.

[O.S.O.K.]

Ben, great minds obviously think alike.

[J Miller]

You guys might think alike, but you didn't read and comprehend what I said.

And I quote myself: "I have no desire for another "project" gun at this time. I'd much rather trade it for a newer top eject one already drilled and tapped for a receiver sight."

I also have no use for the 30-30 AI, and I doubt that would cure the problem as the case neck is still over sized. Simply moving the shoulder forward isn't gonna cure that.

Joe

[Blaine]

You guys might think alike, but you didn't read and comprehend what I said.

And I quote myself: "I have no desire for another "project" gun at this time. I'd much rather trade it for a newer top eject one already drilled and tapped for a receiver sight."

I also have no use for the 30-30 AI, and I doubt that would cure the problem as the case neck is still over sized. Simply moving the shoulder forward isn't gonna cure that.

Joe

Just for my curiosity, what would you guys do in this situation?

You should have asked: what should I do, not what would YOU guys do

Seriously, if the chamber is a little big, I'm surprised it doesn't just fire-form to the bigger size.....

[Bruce in WV]

Other than the AI, are there other standard rebarrel projects in different calibers that wouldn't require modifying the innards to make it feed and run smoothly?

[O.S.O.K.]

He don't want a project gun!!!!

Sell it then! Or as you say - trade somebody for a newer one - I bet somebody here would probably do that...

[J Miller]

Other than the AI, are there other standard rebarrel projects in different calibers that wouldn't require modifying the innards to make it feed and run smoothly?

Bruce,

Any carbine barrel from the late 40s till the introduction of the AE models will bolt right up. I doubt the caliber would matter, but I've been told that the 32-40 or 38-55 case makes a difference on some cartridge guides.

Changing out the barrel is actually on my consideration list. But I'd have to come up with a really smoking good deal on a barrel.

Joe

[J Miller]

O.S.O.K.

A trade for a newer one is my preference. But I've not made any commitments on it yet.

Everything is subject to change.

Joe

[Dave]

Sell it to someone you don't like!

Just kidding. If you don't want to fool with it there isn't much you can do but dump it off. Of course right after you sell it someone will offer to give you a barrel for it. Never fails.

You might just send it off and have someone set the barrel back a turn and cut a new chamber. That is not a technical project since someone else is doing the work.

[J Miller]

Sell it to someone you don't like!

Just kidding. If you don't want to fool with it there isn't much you can do but dump it off. Of course right after you sell it someone will offer to give you a barrel for it. Never fails.

You might just send it off and have someone set the barrel back a turn and cut a new chamber. That is not a technical project since someone else is doing the work.

Dave,
If I really had any ambition I'd convert it to .44 Mag. I've got a brand new 20" Win 94 .44 mag barrel. Unfortunately I'm not sure about the carrier, guides, bolt, etc etc etc. So a 30-30 barrel would be the best plan if I go that way.

Joe

[Kansas Ed]

Seems to me you've already made up your mind. Either that or backed yourself into a corner with a lack of options. You don't want a project, and don't have the money...that indicates sell it. I'm with Blaine though...that thing should just fireform the brass IF the brass is good. Lots of folks do a fireform type situation to larger calibers...no reason this one shouldn't handle that too. Me thinks you've got bad brass, old brass, hard brass. Anneal first then assess. If annealing doesn't work, then borrow/trade into some new brass...like 5 rounds and try again. Brass should be soft enough to stretch a bunch.

IF it were me, I'd have the barrel bored to either the 35/30-30 or 38-55 and move on. And Mike Hunter would get the rifle for the work.

Ed

[Bigahh]

Joe,

Selling it seems your logical choice. Good Luck, hope you get the gun you really want from the deal.

[jnyork]

Joe, just send it out to me, I'll analyse it for you for a few years and let you know as soon as I get anything figured out. Only a minimal charge for this service, just 'cause it's you.

[AJMD429]

Seriously, if the chamber is a little big, I'm surprised it doesn't just fire-form to the bigger size.....

It IS kind of odd that the case splits, when you see people fire-forming 'improved' and larger-caliber cases. . . that has me confused (...not a difficult task sometimes... )

Anyway, I think I'd either sell/trade it to someone as a 'project' gun, perhaps even a gunsmith would give you decent dollars credit on it towards something else pretty they have; they are in the best position to make it into a 'shooter' - or a 'seller' - cheaply.

I like the idea of re-boring it to .35 caliber (always liked that caliber), or how about .338 caliber...? If you don't mind replacing vs. reboring (probably cheaper anyway), just back to good-old .30-30, or 7mm Waters.

[LeverBob]

Jose'...Mi Amigo...either sell it off at a big loss or take on another project. Seems to me that rebarreling would be a "project". Sending it to Mike for rechambering would be the most cost effective. AI is a favorite with me. LEE makes the dies at low cost.

If you decide to send it out for rechambering disclose the current chamber condition otherwise the reamer will "follow". The chamber will be off center just like the old. (Don't ask me how I know).

LB

[Dave]

Don't forget you can always get in touch with your inner redneck. If the gun shoots well enough just use it and chunk the brass. Problem solved Maybe a vacation in Mississippi would help you decide

[JReed]

Bore it out to 38-55. That is just my 2 cents. But if your chamber cast is show it to be no to bad it would be more practical to re chamber to AI as long as it would clean up the bad portion of the chamber.

[win38-55]

I like the idea of boring out or having it bored out to a 38-55.
Either that or make it a wall hanger.

[JReed]

I like the idea of boring out or having it bored out to a 38-55.
Either that or make it a wall hanger.

Gee who'd a thunk

[J Miller]

Well, yes, again I worded my post badly. I'm getting pretty good at that.

All I know is this carbine is splitting cases. Factory and hand loads. That does not bode well for that chamber.

"IF" I do anything to it, it will be a rebarrel to 30-30. I have nothing against the 30-30 AI, I'm just not interested in it.
Same comment about the 38-55.

Now; here is what I'm going to do:

A: I'm going to do a chamber cast and see what it shows. I said that above.

B: As I'm waiting to get the Cerosafe I am going to research the replacement barrel angle.

C: Depending what the cost of the barrel and having it R&R'd is, I will either do that, or sell it.

D: I already have 3 offers to buy via PM, so they get first crack "IF" I decide to sell.

E: If someone comes up with a viable trade, that will take precedence.

OK, have I squirmed out of my corner or am I still stuck?

Joe

[CEMENTHEAD]

Joe,
I would part it out. You'd probably make more money on it that way, than selling it outright with the bad barrel. Then you could look for another.

Or....you could talk to 20cows ( of puzzle fame) and see if he has a barrel layin' around he would swap or sell you.

My .02¢.........Thanks, Tom

[Griff]

Well, yes, again I worded my post badly. I'm getting pretty good at that.
All I know is this carbine is splitting cases. Factory and hand loads. That does not bode well for that chamber.
"IF" I do anything to it, it will be a rebarrel to 30-30. I have nothing against the 30-30 AI, I'm just not interested in it.
Same comment about the 38-55.
Now; here is what I'm going to do:
A: I'm going to do a chamber cast and see what it shows. I said that above.
B: As I'm waiting to get the Cerosafe I am going to research the replacement barrel angle.
C: Depending what the cost of the barrel and having it R&R'd is, I will either do that, or sell it.
D: I already have 3 offers to buy via PM, so they get first crack "IF" I decide to sell.
E: If someone comes up with a viable trade, that will take precedence.
OK, have I squirmed out of my corner or am I still stuck?
Joe

Joe, don't go jumpin off into deep water just yet. 'Sides, I've been talkin' about buyin or swappin' you for that carbine for over a year. I've spent the better part of the afternoon writin up a response to this here thread, and have had some "issues" with this new fangled air card they sent me. Junk. But, to your rifle... I think I got it figured out... will get air-card "issues" worked out and either email ya or call ya 'bout it.

You other guys... BACK OFF! I think Joe may just have one of most valuable Winchesters ever produced. At least of the faux pas kind!

I'm a gonna re-write my response to ya and send it along in a little while... but while I'm on-line I gotta get some payroll stuff submitted... stay tuned... I think you'll like what I got in mind.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Well, yes, again I worded my post badly. I'm getting pretty good at that.

All I know is this carbine is splitting cases. Factory and hand loads. That does not bode well for that chamber.

"IF" I do anything to it, it will be a rebarrel to 30-30. I have nothing against the 30-30 AI, I'm just not interested in it.
Same comment about the 38-55.

Now; here is what I'm going to do:

A: I'm going to do a chamber cast and see what it shows. I said that above.

B: As I'm waiting to get the Cerosafe I am going to research the replacement barrel angle.

C: Depending what the cost of the barrel and having it R&R'd is, I will either do that, or sell it.

D: I already have 3 offers to buy via PM, so they get first crack "IF" I decide to sell.

E: If someone comes up with a viable trade, that will take precedence.

OK, have I squirmed out of my corner or am I still stuck?

Joe

That's the best place to start. There just too many variable trying to measure a chamber from fired brass. If it still doesn't show you what's going on then I would check head space.

BTW, I got your email but I also got a new computer with windows 7 I'm learning. So, I'm behind on emails.

[J Miller]

Steve,

Windows 7 .... we don't have that one yet. Still running 6. Was wondering if my ISP's email server dropped the email. They've been working on that too.

I may call you for tips when I get the Cerosafe.

Joe

[Winnetou]

I don’t suppose it is possible that the barrel is actually chambered in .32 Winchester Special, and was incorrectly stamped?

[OldWin]

Winnetou,

I have actually seen an example of this at a local gunshop. The carbine in question was just a few years newer than this one. My friend that runs the shop and I wondered how many times this has happened. Even more frightening, happened the other way around.

[rjohns94]

I like the 38-55 idea, rebarrel it, or shoot brass once idea. I'm not really sure yet why its splitting cases. I think the anealing will make this a non issue. Fire formed cases work all the time. I just don't understand why they are cracking unless brass is bad.

As I read over this, I see I didn't offer anything new. Sorry.

[Old Shatterhand]

Have gunsmith to make a chamber casting and to slug the bore. If it is a .32-40, just mark the barrel correctly and use that cartridge. If it is just a bad chamber, the smith can cut the base of the barrel ½", cut a new thread and then rechamber it correctly.

O.Sh.

[Markbo]

One ideas that I haven't seen here is to contact Winchester and ask THEM to rebarrel it for free. If the thing is as good condition as you describe it will be obvious that it is not from abuse. I'd give them a change to make it right before doing anything other than the chamber cast. What's the worst that could happen? They say no? Nothing lost at that point.

[J Miller]

Griff,
Yes, you have been discussing it with me for quite a while, I simply had a CRS episode and dis-remembered it. Sorry about that. To those who have PM'd me, Griff does have a prior claim. Please accept my apology.

Markbo,
Re-read the first line in my original post.
Browning-Winchester-USRAC wont work on anything prior to the AE models. They consider them "obsolete".

The bore is .308", I've checked it. It's just got an over sized chamber at the front.
"IF" it didn't split factory ammo, I'd just say it was a factory ammo gun and leave it at that. But it does split factory ammo, ~and~ I almost never shoot factory ammo. Can't afford it.

Am exploring options at this time.

Joe

[Markbo]

Griff,
....Browning-Winchester-USRAC wont work on anything prior to the AE models. They consider them "obsolete".....
Joe

I did not know that... thanks for the edumacation!

[J Miller]

Griff,
....Browning-Winchester-USRAC wont work on anything prior to the AE models. They consider them "obsolete".....
Joe

I did not know that... thanks for the edumacation!

The funny part is, the AE models use many of the same parts the post-64s do. Yet if you call them and ask for such a part they'll tell you they don't have it, to go to an obsolete parts dealer. If you look it up on the current parts list and give them the part #, they'll sell it to you.


Joe

[Old Time Hunter]

I don’t suppose it is possible that the barrel is actually chambered in .32 Winchester Special, and was incorrectly stamped?

That was my asumption too! Chambered for a .32 Spec w/.30-30 bore

[Ben_Rumson]

A .310" case mouth ID in a fired case doesn't seem overly large to me...That's only a thou on a side over .308"... My M1 carbine fired case mouth ID run around .314"... No splits...

[J Miller]

A .310" case mouth ID in a fired case doesn't seem overly large to me...That's only a thou on a side over .308"... My M1 carbine fired case mouth ID run around .314"... No splits...

No it don't, but all I had to measure it with was my caliper. And what part of the case neck did that measure? The mouth or down where it is splitting? Beats me.

I'm not gonna post on this thread again until I get some Cerosafe and do a chamber cast. To much guessing and no concrete evidence.
The only thing I know for sure is it's splitting way to many cases.

Joe

[Winnetou]

Actually, Old Time Hunter’s theory goes further than my speculation of a wrongly stamped barrel: he suggests that the barrel was chambered for .32 Special but bored and rifled for .30-30. Now that the bore dimensions have been given, this appears to be a possible explanation.

[stanforth]

To me it's a 'no brainer'.
Anneal your cases, shoot them and then reload without resizing.
Due to the type of guns I own I often have to do this. I have an Evans with a deformed chamber and two 12.7 Rolling blocks one of which has an enlarged chamber.

[w30wcf]

Joe,
Upon reading your post, I decided to check the diameter of fired case necks from my seven 30-30 rifles. I did find one that the case necks measured .335" diameter. All of the others averaged .333". I have never had any trouble with splitting brass in any of the rifles. Hmmmm......

As an example of how flexible good 30-30 brass is, back in July I was spotting for a fellow who as shooting pretty much full power loads at a NRA Cowboy Silhouette match. I suggested that he try a mid range type load at the close targets and gave him one of my 30-30 mid range loads to try, which he did. Well, the bullet landed about 4 feet from the intended target and when he ejected the casing, I noticed that it was no longer a bottle necked case.
I thought he was shooting a 30-30 when in fact it was a 375 Winchester.

Anyway, the case neck had expanded all the way to .403" and it did not split. Properly annealed brass will do the same thing in my experience.

w30wcf

[Old Savage]

It has always seemed to me that a reamer that had the chamber configuration of the 7-30 Waters but in 30 caliber was a great idea and that might clean the chamber out and give improved ballistics. Come to think of it I have a candidate for such a project.

[Griff]

Winnetou & OTH's suggestion is just what I was alluding to. A 32 WS chamber with a .30-30 bore. And, as I thought about this... the anomaly still exists as to why it would split cases when the AI conversion makes a bigger adjustment in the final case size than the .32 WS does over the .30WCF?







Not to mention how the .30-30 can be fire-formed into a .38-55. Here's my theory: The .30WCF to .38-55 transistion, the pressure from firing is all released down the barrel once the bullet is expelled from the case. Likewise, a rifle re-chambered to .30-30AI, the pressure is contained in the case as the case mouth expands and releases the bullet to travel down the bore. And although the case mouth might spring back from the chamber walls, this would only happen when the bullet as traveled far enough to relieve the pressure.

However, in the case where the .32WS might be chambered, yet the bore is only .307, I wonder if the bullet, without the proper chamber support is released prior to the neck expanding to fill the chamber, allowing pressure gases, building up behind the bullet to move around the neck, moving back into the shoulder area, creating some sort of insufficient support to portions of the neck-shoulder transistion, keeping the case from expanding fully into the chamber, leading to the inconsistent positioning of splits. Depending on the specific powder used, there might not be much in the way of powder residue present on the outside of the case.

With your dimensions, it sure seems plausible:

The case mouth ID runs around .310" ± on all the cases I measured.
The case mouth OD of the unsized cases runs .335" to .339". The necks are not round.

Anyway, that's the theorem. Thought I had some fired cases of my slightly oversized .30-30, but can't find them... A hundred recently reloaded pieces... but that doesn't do us any good...

I'm sure that one of those really smart guys, what actually KNOW their stuff will be able to shoot holes in my theorem.

[J Miller]

Griff,

Thanks for the drawings. When I get the Cerosafe I'll erase all the dimensions and replace them with those from my rifle. That will give us the answer to part of the question.

The only "facts" I have are these. I have fired a total of 76 rounds through this Winchester. Of these 76 18 have split. A total of 24%.
That is UNacceptable. Something is wrong with it.

Joe

[J Miller]

Cerrosafe was ordered yesterday. Projected delivery date: 10-27.

This should be an interesting project.

Joe