OT Black powder question

[Otto]

So I have a pound of FFFg left over from when I had a percussion revolver, and I want to get rid of it. I would like to load some .45 cartridges for my "old" Vaquero, using Missouri Bullet 200gr RNFP bullets. These bullets are lubed for smokeless powder. They will be shot two, maybe three cylinders at a time. How much of a problem will this be?

Is there a place to buy Big Lube bullets, either lubed or unlubed? I have found numerous sites which offer the moulds, but not the bullets themselves.

I ask this question because I have been told that in the case of a low volume of fire, smokeless lube will be adequate. However, I have much more faith in the knowledge-base here.

[Hobie]

Some people's idea of "adequate" doesn't match mine. Most all "smokeless" powder lubes will gum up something fierce with BP but not all. It depends on whether or not they are petroleum based. You have to just try it I suppose.

[Otto]

Some people's idea of "adequate" doesn't match mine. Most all "smokeless" powder lubes will gum up something fierce with BP but not all. It depends on whether or not they are petroleum based. You have to just try it I suppose.

In the worst-case scenario, am I going to create a horrible mess, or is there potential for actual damage/injury (beyond the usual risks inherent to reloading)?

[Chas.]

Chey-Cast has 250gr (.452 or .454) with BP lube - $18.00/100. They also have 200gr a bit cheaper.

[Otto]

Chey-Cast has 250gr (.452 or .454) with BP lube - $18.00/100. They also have 200gr a bit cheaper.

Perfectamundo! Thanks, Mr. C!


And their street address is Otto Road!

[perry owens]

Ready cast and lubed Big Lube bullets can be had from Mark Whyte:
http://hstrial-mwhyte2.homestead.com/untitled2.html
Perry Owens

[Pisgah]

Some people's idea of "adequate" doesn't match mine. Most all "smokeless" powder lubes will gum up something fierce with BP but not all. It depends on whether or not they are petroleum based. You have to just try it I suppose.

In the worst-case scenario, am I going to create a horrible mess, or is there potential for actual damage/injury (beyond the usual risks inherent to reloading)?

Worst case? Some hard fouling that can be removed with vigorous cleaning (soap/water/a good scrubbing) and, likely, some lousy accuracy -- but no particular added danger. I suppose the bore could foul up enough to raise pressures, but a BP round is pretty low-pressure to begin with and the old Vaq is bull-strong.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

It's a bit messy but you can just spread some bore-butter of crisco over tge loaded cylinder just like you do with a CB revolver.

[Griff]

Nate has the messy answer, Perry Owens & Chas. have the "it'll cost ya more" answer but the best answer is to make ya some "grease cookies" out of a BP friendly lube and insert between powder and your current bullet. Thicken up some lard with beeswax and cut some .50 waxed card wads (milk cartons work fantastic), and place one on top of your powder, press in place with 3/8" dowel, (leaving enough space to make final assembly with crimp in crimp groove), have grease laid out in a pan about ¼" thick, using the case mouth as your "cookie cutter", use dowel again to move cookie on top of wad, add a second wad on top of grease, and insert bullet, seat normally.

A little more labor intensive, but... it is the "elegant" solution; as the lube is then left in the barrel AFTER the bullet has been thru it and does the job it's intended to, keep fouling soft.

[Otto]

Nate has the messy answer, Perry Owens & Chas. have the "it'll cost ya more" answer but the best answer is to make ya some "grease cookies" out of a BP friendly lube and insert between powder and your current bullet. Thicken up some lard with beeswax and cut some .50 waxed card wads (milk cartons work fantastic), and place one on top of your powder, press in place with 3/8" dowel, (leaving enough space to make final assembly with crimp in crimp groove), have grease laid out in a pan about ¼" thick, using the case mouth as your "cookie cutter", use dowel again to move cookie on top of wad, add a second wad on top of grease, and insert bullet, seat normally.

A little more labor intensive, but... it is the "elegant" solution; as the lube is then left in the barrel AFTER the bullet has been thru it and does the job it's intended to, keep fouling soft.

This is preferred over ordering pre-lubed bullets?

Can I make card wads by soaking cereal box material, index cards, whatever, in molten lube?

[J Miller]

Otto,

Nates messy idea works like a charm. I've some black powder ammo I put together several years ago with the wrong kind of lube. Someone suggested the Crisco over the loaded rounds and I tried it.
Yes, it's messy but there was no build of fouling, no leading, and my revolvers cleaned up quite easily.

I went to the Chey Cast sight and when I clicked on the products link I got nothing but a notice the bullet casting company was for sale.

Also the Mark Whyte site Perry Owens posted doesn't have any contact info except his PayPal email addy. But he's got some nice bullets for sale. No details on alloy but nice looking bullets.

Joe

[Otto]

Otto,

Nates messy idea works like a charm. I've some black powder ammo I put together several years ago with the wrong kind of lube. Someone suggested the Crisco over the loaded rounds and I tried it.
Yes, it's messy but there was no build of fouling, no leading, and my revolvers cleaned up quite easily.

I went to the Chey Cast sight and when I clicked on the products link I got nothing but a notice the bullet casting company was for sale.

Also the Mark Whyte site Perry Owens posted doesn't have any contact info except his PayPal email addy. But he's got some nice bullets for sale. No details on alloy but nice looking bullets.

Joe

When I had my percussions, I completely filled the cylinder with lube. Do you do this, or just use a generous glop on the bullet nose? As an aside, I proposed this very thing in a thread long ago, and basically was called a moron.

[Griff]

Nate has the messy answer, Perry Owens & Chas. have the "it'll cost ya more" answer but the best answer is to make ya some "grease cookies" out of a BP friendly lube and insert between powder and your current bullet. Thicken up some lard with beeswax and cut some .50 waxed card wads (milk cartons work fantastic), and place one on top of your powder, press in place with 3/8" dowel, (leaving enough space to make final assembly with crimp in crimp groove), have grease laid out in a pan about ¼" thick, using the case mouth as your "cookie cutter", use dowel again to move cookie on top of wad, add a second wad on top of grease, and insert bullet, seat normally.
A little more labor intensive, but... it is the "elegant" solution; as the lube is then left in the barrel AFTER the bullet has been thru it and does the job it's intended to, keep fouling soft.

This is preferred over ordering pre-lubed bullets?

Well... depending on how much powder you have, possibly. If you're only going to need to load 50 or 60 rounds... sorta depends... Outta a revolver? No, that might be more labor intensive than you "need". But, outta a rifle I would. The amount of lube carried by any bullet varies greatly... and some great smokeless designs just fall short of carrying enough lube for use outta rifles.

Can I make card wads by soaking cereal box material, index cards, whatever, in molten lube?

I wouldn't. Depending on your storage temps... the lube could re-melt and migrate into the powder. 'Sides, "milk, it does a body good!"

When I had my percussions, I completely filled the cylinder with lube. Do you do this, or just use a generous glop on the bullet nose? As an aside, I proposed this very thing in a thread long ago, and basically was called a moron.

On my percussions, I normally just use a lubed "Wonder-Wad" under the ball. I've never had a problem. If it's VERY HOT and HUMID, I will do that every other stage when shooting a cowboy match.

As far as putting a BP lube over the front of a cartridge cylinder... it probably doesn't serve much purpose. The reason it's there in a BP percussion revolver is to keep any "flash over" from one cylinder to another and possibly leaking by the ball. That really isn't likely unless the balls are NOT fitted to the gun correctly. As the gun is fired it simply preceeds the ball down the bore... yes, lubing the bore for the ball, but leaves nothing for the following fouling. The fouling left behind is going to quickly crust over, if hot enough and left long enough, will be harder to remove. I like my lube between the ball and powder... therefore the lube cookie; or in the case of my percussions, the lubed wonder wad.

My '51s have shot very ragged one-hole groups at 25 yards for upwards of 25 consecutive shots without cleaning or jamming of the gun using only wonder wads and round balls over a charge of 17 grains of 3F Goex. Using standard smokeless bullets AND SPG lube my Colts can fire a two day match with no loss of accuracy or needed cleaning. However, my 1873 rifle (24-¼" barrel) doesn't like that treatment. It will show a little crusty fouling near the last 2 or 3 inches of barrel after the first day's shooting. If not cleaned, it will be little less accurate the second day. Not an issue at CAS distances <35 yards, but for longer distances it's a consideration that makes me clean it!

In the final analysis, as long as you use properly sized bullets, you aren't going to "HARM" your revolver regardless of what type of lube you use. Cleaning will just be a little more difficult than it would if you just shot smokeless powder... and a LOT more difficult than if you use bullets lubed with BP friendly lubes.

[Hobie]

No harm just stuff to clean. The question is, how many are you going to load? About 230±. To me, that's a lot of hard work because IME that's cleaning the revolver thoroughly at least 12 times more than I would need to with properly lubed bullets.

As to lubing over the loaded rounds like you would with the cap-n-ball guns... It isn't "moronic" but if you don't need to, why do it? What a mess! There's a reason that inside lubricated bullets were seen as such a big step forward.

Now, if it was me, I'd buy a nice .32 or .36 squirrel rifle to go with that FFFg.

[J Miller]

Otto,

Nates messy idea works like a charm. I've some black powder ammo I put together several years ago with the wrong kind of lube. Someone suggested the Crisco over the loaded rounds and I tried it.
Yes, it's messy but there was no build of fouling, no leading, and my revolvers cleaned up quite easily.

I went to the Chey Cast sight and when I clicked on the products link I got nothing but a notice the bullet casting company was for sale.

Also the Mark Whyte site Perry Owens posted doesn't have any contact info except his PayPal email addy. But he's got some nice bullets for sale. No details on alloy but nice looking bullets.

Joe

When I had my percussions, I completely filled the cylinder with lube. Do you do this, or just use a generous glop on the bullet nose? As an aside, I proposed this very thing in a thread long ago, and basically was called a moron.

Otto,

It might have been you I got the idea from. I just remembered it last year when I went to IN for the 2nd Leverguns get together.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18454
I stole a bunch of Crisco from the kitchen and just used a popsicle stick to dab a bunch in. I didn't try to really fill the front of the chambers, but I'm pretty sure I did. Nor did I try to be neat and tidy with it. In the two days we were there I think I shot off almost a full box of ammo from the two .45 Colt revolvers I had with me. Neither showed any signs of gumming up from the fouling. The bores were really clean and the frames and cylinder weren't too bad either. The only problem I had was very little wind. The smoke just hung in front of the firing line and I couldn't see the blasted targets.
I would rather have used the proper lube, but at the time I loaded this ammo I honestly did not know that I was supposed to use black powder compatible lube. Duhhhhh, boy did I find out .... ewwww yuk.

Joe

[Otto]

Now, if it was me, I'd buy a nice .32 or .36 squirrel rifle to go with that FFFg.

Yeah, but I actually am trying to start the process of reducing the number of guns I have. There are several I own but have never even fired.

[Ben_Rumson]

NO NO NO NOO... Yer all wrong!!! I used to shoot accurately all day long a petro lubed 180gr SWC 45 cal bullet cast out of Lyman #2 alloy, lubed with NRA formula 50/50 Alox/ Beeswax formula....with the bullets seated directly on the powder so as to have about 1/8th inch compression...NO wads...This out of my Repro Rem 1858 w/8” barrel in weather conditions from the summer high 90s and on down into the low 30s... I guess I got away with using NRA formula 50/50 Alox/ Beeswax formula mainly because of the revolvers’ short barrel (not enough length for it to develop bad fouling) as compared to ML rifles...and because the bullets are only going one way in the bore of a revolver.. In mine, the bore (which I’ve lapped) stays fairly shiny from just past the forcing cone on up about 5 or 6 inches or so...the last few inches look kind of like grey greasy ash...but the rifling is still very distinct looking...also sometimes there’d be a few dragon’s eyes in there or on the muzzle crown (little red dot looking things...which I’ve read is a sign of good combustion.. I don’t really know..) I was using 26gr 3f GOEX and RWS caps.. Prolonged shooting did cause cylinder rotation problems no matter what goops were tried on the axel pin.. But that was finally overcome with a mod to the cylinder & frame that ultimately let us shoot all day long with no stoppages...Well maybe except to give our cap pinching finger tips a break...Now I’d lube with SPG... Otto...You might try a couple of chambers full and have a look.. Pull a bore snake thru & see what you see... good luck...

[J Miller]

Ben,

Never tried the old NRA formula, what caused my troubles was something else. A mixture of the factory lube and what ever was in my lube pan.

Joe

[Ysabel Kid]

Just ordered 250 count of these in .38, .44, and .45 on Friday...

http://hstrial-mwhyte2.homestead.com/untitled2.html

[the telegraphist]

For what its worth gents, I have used in the past with 44/40 rifle and single action revolver a dry lubed hard cast 200g RNFP under a good dose of Swiss fff. Great accurracy and no greasy mess to clean-up, only the BP fouling which was attended to directly after shooting. Guns and cases.

[Hobie]

Now, if it was me, I'd buy a nice .32 or .36 squirrel rifle to go with that FFFg.

Yeah, but I actually am trying to start the process of reducing the number of guns I have. There are several I own but have never even fired.

Well, the small bore muzzle-loader is actually useful. However, while my first instinct was to deride the idea of selling down a collection of guns I have to admit that I've been thinking I might have one or two too many.

[Old Time Hunter]

I have just rolled pre-lubed smokeless cast bullets in SPG, then loaded 'em with BP and not had a problem. Similar to what Ben said.

[bobbyjack]

I just scrape that blue looking lube out with a knife point,and put some bacon grease and bees wax mix in it on the grooves!

Fill the case up with BP ,and blast away.

Bob

[kimwcook]

Just make sure you fill the case with blackpowder and leave no air space. I don't know if you know this or not, I feel it can't hurt to say it again, and again and again.