G&A Leverguns Vs. Bolts

[JohndeFresno]

Guns and Ammo's September 2010, just now found in my mailbox, has a fun little article about Leverguns Vs. Bolt Actions. Written by Boddington and van Zwoll, it is a fun read. I didn't find any astoundingly new information, but the "opposing" articles hold a good summary of the virtues of both actions.

[Pisgah]

Such articles can be entertaining when they are well done. But really -- isn't it about like "Screwdriver vs. crescent wrench -- which is best?" As with any tools, you choose this one for Job A, and another, totally different one for Job B. At least, I do.

[JohndeFresno]

...uh...er... I thought that was what I said, pard!

[AJMD429]

I saw the article, and it was kind of interesting, but somehow I wished they'd had someone shooting an accurized levergun getting 1/4 MOA off a bench, just for kicks.

[getitdone1]

If I had to live off the country in some wilderness area I'd definitely prefer a bolt-action with a proven history of reliability along with a good scope.

Although I've never had one--yet--I could probably do as well with a Browning BLR with scope although I'd say the better bolt-actions could take more abuse and keep on ticking.

In the above situation the scoped gun--whether bolt or lever--would be a must.

In my gun collection I have about half bolt-actions and half lever-actions. Love'em both. No gun will ever look better to me than my Browning 1886 SRC lever-action.

Don McCullough

[L_Kilkenny]

Such articles can be entertaining when they are well done. But really -- isn't it about like "Screwdriver vs. crescent wrench -- which is best?" As with any tools, you choose this one for Job A, and another, totally different one for Job B. At least, I do.

While I understand what you are trying to say your "screwdriver to wrench" tool analogy is way off IMO. If you want to use a tool analogy in this case it should be a screwdriver with a 4" shaft vs. one with a 6" shaft. You may choose or prefer one over the other but in the end they perform the same basic function. Same with levers vs. bolts. With-in the realm of of hunting and fieldwork, a majority of the time it isn't gonna make a difference on what action you choose. Or at least it shouldn't.

BTW, I don't get G&A so I'll just have to rely on you folks as to it's content and quality. Which truth be known, I'm better relying on you folks anyway.

LK

[madman4570]

Leverguns Vs. Bolts ???

Nope, neither----------------Pumps!
Truthfully, for me at least its what I am used to best and prefer! (pump)

[RIHMFIRE]

Leverguns Vs. Bolts ???

Nope, neither----------------Pumps!
Truthfully, for me at least its what I am used to best and prefer! (pump)

Nope....
I want all three!
nope...
all 4 ...lets throw a semi-auto in there too!

[Sixgun]

Nope....
I want all three!
nope...
all 4 ...lets throw a semi-auto in there too!

Me too! I'd like to add the full auto

[JB]

I enjoy collecting and shooting levers, but to be honest I can't think of any situation where I'd prefer one over a bolt other than just the "fun" factor. With defense, hunting, target shooting etc., I just feel a good bolt beat a good lever.

[Streetstar]

I enjoy collecting and shooting levers, but to be honest I can't think of any situation where I'd prefer one over a bolt other than just the "fun" factor. With defense, hunting, target shooting etc., I just feel a good bolt beat a good lever.

Get a rope ! .............. kidding. My guide gun wears a scope and is as accurate as most hunting grade bolt rifles, has much faster follow up shot capability (this has to be practiced with either action though, admittedly) . Shortcomings are the cartridge's shortcomings past about 250 yards because of its looping trajectory. Not a handicap at all where i use the rifle, but might be a handicap in other geographical areas

Defensive use - capacity is a wash, but again, a shorter, handier rifle for maneuvering in tight confines than a bolt rifle.

Precision target shooting -- well, you got me there. when its time to break out the micrometer rather than the tape measure, a nice bolt rifle has its advantages -- (but most off-the-rack sporting grade bolt rifles do not shoot quite that tight)

But the lever has an advantage for a lot of people in the "fun factor" of shooting it off hand with irons

[L_Kilkenny]

I enjoy collecting and shooting levers, but to be honest I can't think of any situation where I'd prefer one over a bolt other than just the "fun" factor. With defense, hunting, target shooting etc., I just feel a good bolt beat a good lever.

Get a rope ! .............. kidding. My guide gun wears a scope and is as accurate as most hunting grade bolt rifles, has much faster follow up shot capability (this has to be practiced with either action though, admittedly) . Shortcomings are the cartridge's shortcomings past about 250 yards because of its looping trajectory. Not a handicap at all where i use the rifle, but might be a handicap in other geographical areas

Defensive use - capacity is a wash, but again, a shorter, handier rifle for maneuvering in tight confines than a bolt rifle.

Precision target shooting -- well, you got me there. when its time to break out the micrometer rather than the tape measure, a nice bolt rifle has its advantages -- (but most off-the-rack sporting grade bolt rifles do not shoot quite that tight)

But the lever has an advantage for a lot of people in the "fun factor" of shooting it off hand with irons

Oh, Oh, Oh, get a rope for me too!! I hate being left out!

I'm with JB on this one. The 2 things that I can think of a lever being better is fun (maybe?) and close quarters SD. I can rip off "semi-aimed" shots pretty fast with a lever but for hunting using hunting loads I'm just as fast on "aimed" follow up shots with a bolt as I am with my lever or a pump. While a good lever action carbine handles nicer than a traditional full length bolt rifle that's really comparing apples to oranges. A carbine bolt gun handles pretty darn well also. If you you don't believe me go handle one of the Ruger Hawkeye Compacts, a Mini-Mauser or a Remington Model 7.

Fun? Heck I have fun shooting any gun.

LK

[tman]

A lever is a grouse gun, a bolt is a goose gun. Both are outstanding in what they do.

[quietman]

I guess I must have it wrong then. So you're saying my 338MX shooting 0.8 inch groups wouldn't hold up to a bolt?

[Chas.]

While I understand what you are trying to say your "screwdriver to wrench" tool analogy is way off IMO. If you want to use a tool analogy in this case it should be a screwdriver with a 4" shaft vs. one with a 6" shaft. You may choose or prefer one over the other but in the end they perform the same basic function.

I prefer using my big 10-inch.

Why did the U.S. military opt for bolts over levers back in the day?

[madman4570]

I guess I must have it wrong then. So you're saying my 338MX shooting 0.8 inch groups wouldn't hold up to a bolt?

Well

That depends! (that .8 MOA is pretty darn good for a large factory gun manf. stock gun whether being bolt or lever)
However---------
Probably the best deal on bolt guns that I know of that can be had "new" are fron Mark Bansner(Adamston,Pa)------- (a Bansner rifle)
For around $2K you can get a absolute percesion Bolt action that is guareented to print 1/2 inch groups.
This guy is absolutely unreal what he does to a gun for the dollar.
A .338 winchester Mag like one below has to be what I consider the best deal out there.
http://www.bansnersrifle.com/alpine_hunter.html
Check out his site!

*CALIBERS AVAILABLE: 270 Win, 270 WSM, 30-06, 7mm Rem Mag., 300 WSM, 300 Win Mag., 338 Win Mag.
BANSNER'S "ALPINE HUNTER" Rifle:
Howa 1500 S/S barreled action.
Milled receiver for a more distinctive appearance.
Barrel has been fluted to reduce weight.
Re-crowned muzzle with "Shorty" brake installed with thread cap.
Trigger Tuned to 3 lbs.
Talley Q.D. base and rings.
Polymer K-Cote metal finish to protect against rust.
High Tech Specialties, Inc., fiberglass stock, fully pillar bedded, Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad installed to your L.O.P. and pained in your choice of textured paint.


Let me know if you find a levergun that prints guareented 1/2 inch groups at 100yards for $2K or any amount
The 4 guys I know that have them (2 in 7mm mag)(2 in .338 win mag)all say they all shoot (one ragged hole groups?)

[FWiedner]

While I understand what you are trying to say your "screwdriver to wrench" tool analogy is way off IMO. If you want to use a tool analogy in this case it should be a screwdriver with a 4" shaft vs. one with a 6" shaft. You may choose or prefer one over the other but in the end they perform the same basic function.

I prefer using my big 10-inch.

Why did the U.S. military opt for bolts over levers back in the day?

Duh...

Because soldiers tend to break things and lever-guns break easier than bolt guns.

[L_Kilkenny]

While I understand what you are trying to say your "screwdriver to wrench" tool analogy is way off IMO. If you want to use a tool analogy in this case it should be a screwdriver with a 4" shaft vs. one with a 6" shaft. You may choose or prefer one over the other but in the end they perform the same basic function.

I prefer using my big 10-inch.

Why did the U.S. military opt for bolts over levers back in the day?

I'm not one to try to out guess what public officials base decisions on. It gives me a headache. But from what I've read/heard it might of come down to 3 things: Shooting prone, full length rigid stocks (better to hit someone with) and the ability to easily add a bayonet (better to stick someone with). I'm sure that durability might of been a concern judging by the size and weight of the military bolt guns of the era and I'm positive that back room deals paid a prominent role too. Can't say as I'm upset though. I can't imagine a stripper clip fed, 10lbs lever gun with a 26" barrel!

But in the end it really doesn't matter. I love the historic, classic lines and feel of a lever gun and that's why I own and shoot one more than my bolt guns. I'm bettin that if things had been turned around and John Wayne and Randolf Scott had been shooting short, light bolt guns and militaries had decided on BIG lever guns that things might be turned 180 deg. of what I prefer to shoot and why. Oh the humanity of watching CAS shooters shooting bolt guns!

LK

[JohndeFresno]

Yup on Randolph Scott and John Wayne. I see a lot of blasphemy here.

[JB]

I guess I must have it wrong then. So you're saying my 338MX shooting 0.8 inch groups wouldn't hold up to a bolt?

If you're talking consistent three shot groups at 100 yards, I'd say you got a very, very exceptional lever gun. Of the probably 30 or so lever guns I currently own, and many more in the past, none would come anywhere close to that, other than a freak lucky group. I do have a several bolts that will shoot better.

There are several rifles under $1,000 rifles offering sub 1" guarantees, but I don't know any lever gun companies offering any such guarantee.

I do love lever guns for the fun and history behind them. I enjoy shooting and hunting with handguns and archery equipment, but I could never compare them to a rifle.

[Old Savage]

BLRs are certainly as accurate as bolts and so is my 88 with it's best ammo.

[Lastmohecken]

I can do with either one, bolt or lever, but most or my favorites are leverguns, and my all time favorite, for a handy, accurate, and reliable package, has been my old Browning BLR, in .308 win.
I own a lot of rifles, and only a couple are more accurate, none more reliable, and none faster for me, my BLR would be the last to go. I have used it, and abused it for over 20yrs now, and it has never let me down, as long as I do my part, However, I used a Remington 700 in .270 for the 20 yrs before that, and it worked fine also, but not quite a handy, or fast, but it was fast enough, most of the time.

[JB]

BLRs are certainly as accurate as bolts and so is my 88 with it's best ammo.

When I see a BLR bench rifle or even one built on a BLR action, then I'll buy in.

[JohndeFresno]

We have covered the fact that "leverguns" includes models that are more accurate and versatile than a black powder Winchester made before any of us was born.

We have discussed the fact that you can drop 2 grand or more on a handmade bolt action rifle that can knock the wings off a fly.

Part of the appeal of leverguns deals with price, handiness, portability on a horse or jeep or ATV, and so on. The main appeal of bolts is ruggedness and accuracy. But isn't that truly "Apples and Oranges" - to compare a $2-3000.00 gun to a $500.00 levergun in one department, e.g. accuracy? And is it always necessary to have a 1-inch group at 400 yards, when your prey is less than 100 yards away and you are trying to get your gun into battery?

I think that this is more of what G&A's article dealt with.

[JB]

Even in the $500.00 and under price range. The bolts have the accuracy edge. Of course we've all seen a lemon bolt rifle that came from the factory that wouldn't shoot better than 3" groups as well as as an exceptional lever that shot bolt gun groups. But take a 100 bolts and 100 levers and the bolt will come out on top in the accuracy dept. Of course for many uses 2" at 100 yards is more than enough. Some of us are just more demanding in the accuracy dept.

[L_Kilkenny]

We have covered the fact that "leverguns" includes models that are more accurate and versatile than a black powder Winchester made before any of us was born.

We have discussed the fact that you can drop 2 grand or more on a handmade bolt action rifle that can knock the wings off a fly.

Part of the appeal of leverguns deals with price, handiness, portability on a horse or jeep or ATV, and so on. The main appeal of bolts is ruggedness and accuracy. But isn't that truly "Apples and Oranges" - to compare a $2-3000.00 gun to a $500.00 levergun in one department, e.g. accuracy? And is it always necessary to have a 1-inch group at 400 yards, when your prey is less than 100 yards away and you are trying to get your gun into battery?

I think that this is more of what G&A's article dealt with.

I don't get G&A so I can't testify as to what they covered. If they compared $2000 bolts to $500 levers than it may indeed be an apples to oranges comparison. But it don't take a $2000 bolt to out shoot your average lever gun IME. If they want to be fair than take a Model 7 or one of the compact bolt guns and re-run the comparison. Or take a 24" 1885 and compare it to a 22-24" bolt gun. Never really noticed gun mags caring about fair, just what gets readers to keep buying and advertisers to keep giving.

Part of the appeal of leverguns deals with price, handiness, portability on a horse or jeep or ATV, and so on.

Funny thing here. I was watching "The Parent Trap" on tv last night ( I know, I know) and noticed that Brian Keith has a bolt gun in a leather scabbard strapped to the fender of the jeep. Prize goes to the shooter that can tell me what it was. The only thing stickin out was from the bolt on back.

As for 1" groups at 400 yards........ Never seen a gun do that and will never own one that can. But then I've never owned a bolt action that wouldn't shoot MOA. Is it necessary? I need all the help I can get!


LK

[getitdone1]

While I understand what you are trying to say your "screwdriver to wrench" tool analogy is way off IMO. If you want to use a tool analogy in this case it should be a screwdriver with a 4" shaft vs. one with a 6" shaft. You may choose or prefer one over the other but in the end they perform the same basic function.

I prefer using my big 10-inch.

Why did the U.S. military opt for bolts over levers back in the day?

Chas,

I believe the main reason our military went for bolts rather than lever-action rifles was the levering was or often could be a problem in the prone position. I also expect the better bolt-action guns would take more abuse than most lever guns.

Don McCullough

[Ben_Rumson]

In the early days the military didn't like (among other things) the magazine tubes' susceptibility to damage.. Winchester muskets had full length stocks to protect the mag tube..

[AJMD429]

If I had to choose whether to throw a M-98 Mauser or a Marlin 1894 or a Winchester 1892 out of a tree onto rocks, and which one I then had to depend on my life to function, I'd choose the Mauser, time after time after time. Same if I had to pick which one I'd prefer to have to make some part for out of scavenged material from an old tractor engine.

Now if I weren't in such 'extreme combat' circumstances, I'd probably prefer the levergun.

Of course 'statistics' supposedly show that the Glock will keep going long after the 1911 is down for the count, and I'd not turn down a Glock as a gift, but if I had to pick between a Glock and a 1911 to go out and face bad guys with, I'd probably still take the 1911, so I'm not logical.

[xxclaro]

One area the levergun trumps the bolt for me is for bear defense in the bush. Went on a elk/moose hunt in grizzly country here a couple weeks ago,and I took along my BB94 .444 and my M700 .270. I figured since rifle season for elk was open the last few days,I'd carry the .270 during those days in case I got a chance at a longer range elk. I'd been carrying the .444 for the previous week,and after carrying the .270 for one morning,it went right back into the case and stayed there. The .444 without scope was so handy and nice to carry I couldn'tbear lugging that unweildy bolt gun around. Sure,there's short and light bolt guns too,but most are not in heavy calibre and those that are would likley be much more expensive than say a Marlin 45-70 while being slower to operate and likely not even equipped with open sights.

[MrMurphy]

Ruger's Hawkeye series is basically what bolt guns used to be.

It's set up for a scope, but has USABLE irons (not the tiny Rem/Winchester ones, these can be seen in a hurry), with a shorter barrel.

I just wish they made that model in .308/.30-06, as the .300-and-ups are great for bear/moose but i'm in Texas.

[JohndeFresno]

Ruger's Hawkeye series is basically what bolt guns used to be.
It's set up for a scope, but has USABLE irons (not the tiny Rem/Winchester ones, these can be seen in a hurry), with a shorter barrel.
I just wish they made that model in .308/.30-06, as the .300-and-ups are great for bear/moose but i'm in Texas.

They do, at least now. Check out the Ruger site - the Hawkeye International has the high sights and calibers you like!

[Griff]

I beg to differ with the comparison between a scoped bolt gun capable of ½MOA and a levergun capable of 2 or 3 MOA.

I firmly believe that regardless of the firearms inherent capabilities, the shooter's capabilities far outweigh the capability of the firearm. If you're a 2 MOA shooter, the ½MOA gun ain't doin' you a bit of good. While it could build your confidence, it of itself, is incapable of improving your shooting.

Put two guns, a bolt and a lever, in the same caliber and have them compared by the same shooter with similar sights in a side by side test... and I believe that you'll get similar results.

Comparin' a $2,000 scoped bolt gun with a $500 levergun is not even a matter of degrees... they're like worlds apart!

[Markbo]

Gun accuracy is needed for anyone to maximize their own capabilities. It's simple math. If you are a 2 MOA shooter and have a 2 MOA gun, you are going to shoot 4 MOA, on average. If you have a 1/2 MOA gun you might shoot 1 MOA. I personally do not own a single bolt gun that will not shoot MOA or better. I don't like inaccurate firearms in any form.

None of my leverguns are quite that accurate, but then they are all kept to relatively shorter ranges so the miss factor is greatly reduced. No question they are the ticket for fast and close.

[86er]

The comparisons in G&A were well articulated but were very basic. The levergun, in most cases, does carry better than a bolt gun, especially if the levergun wears iron sights. One contributor says the bolt is just as fast as the lever while the other contributor says the levergun is faster. This confirms my own efforts where I found I could operate some of my bolt guns as fast as my leverguns. There is a botched attempt to definitively say the levergun can be as powerful as the bolt gun. Boddington uses the 475 Turnbull as an example and he references his buffalo hunt with same. Well, the 475 Turnbull is a great, powerful round but it will not out-perform a properly loaded 458 Win Mag. Also, Boddington shot that buff 5 times with on-target shots. The effect was not as distinct as other cartridges would have been, hence the need for the 2-5th shots. I love the way my Savage 99 carries with a compact scope on it. It is as well balanced as any of my bolt guns and the 308 Win is efficient for the tasks I put it up to. That rifle happens to group consistently 3 shots into an inch at 100 yards with one particular load. That's as good as most of my bolt guns. I am not saying it is better than the accuracy from my bolt guns because frankly I have a few that shot 1 1/2" groups at 100 yds with a given load (first one shoved in it) and I have never bothered to try to tweak the load for better accuracy. If I shot the Savage 99 with just any ammo it would group somewhere around 1 3/4" for 3 shots at 100 yds, so it is at its best with just one particular load (happens to be a 165 gr NP @ 2550 fps). My 1886EL has been worked on for accuracy and load development was meticulous. It has put 3 shots into an inch - which is just a cloverleaf 3 shot group considering the .45 diameter of the holes, but it won't consistently group that good. That gun was purchased when I was working with the "nuisance bear control". I needed a light, quick, powerful rifle with up to 5 shot capacity that had good open sights and/or a scope. When you are shooting a bear off a picnic table in a girl scout camp for instance, you just can't let it get very far after being shot. Multiple shots might be necessary to stop it. Theoretically, you don't want bullets that are so "powerful" that they zip through the bear with a ton of "power" left over. My bolt guns were killing bears but it was very difficult to get second and third shots off when necessary and the cartridges (even some "big" ones) were killing bears but not "stopping" them. So my 1886 ownership was born out of necessity based on the job requirements. That 1886 has been to Africa more than once and has killed large plains game out to 200 yds very effectively and impressively. It has also taken multiple head of dangerous game efficiently. With that said, when I reached for a blacktail deer rifle, an elk rifle, a pronghorn rifle, and even a whitetail rifle a bolt gun went with me. The predominant factor was the anticipated range that the animals would be shot at. For hogs, other deer and bear I grabbed a levergun. I knew I had the "power" and accuracy for the ranges I'd encounter there. I love them both and have come to rely on both for their respective jobs.

[MrMurphy]

Problem these days running bolts is the preponderance of large scopes interfering with bolt manipulation.

I can run the bolt on a Lee-Enfield or military Mauser in a hurry. Not so on a scoped 700 (scope interferes). This is part of why Jeff Cooper went to the forward scope mount. A slightly forward-set scope in 2-7X with an aperature rear and QD rings for me would be near perfect. No bolt interference, good backups and decent scope.

[Griff]

The predominant factor was the anticipated range that the animals would be shot at. For hogs, other deer and bear I grabbed a levergun. I knew I had the "power" and accuracy for the ranges I'd encounter there. I love them both and have come to rely on both for their respective jobs.

There. What he said, so much more eloquently than I could. I only have two bolt guns... Both happen to be Remington 700s in 7mmRemMag... One is a standard weight rifle wearing a Fancy Walnut stock, the other is black stainless, bull barrel and synthetic stock... One is a little more accurate than the other, but I find it hard to tell if it's that tactical Nikon scope the dep't provided or the $100 Tasco on the other gun... Both will shoot inside 1" all day long with the right loads... the new plastic one with a wider range of loads..., but they had different jobs as do my leverguns. The leverguns I hunt with are going to be used differently than the bolt gun I hunt with.

Here in TX, except on 2 ocassions, I haven't had a shot over 125 yards at deer... one I took it with my custom mdl94 rifle, the other there wasn't a deer present... but that little havelina @ 280± yards was just too tempting. Had I had my 7mm bolt gun, we'd have had piggie burritos for dinner instead of warmed over pizza!

In my world, it isn't really fair to compare the two. I can't shoot the bolts faster than any of my levers... and I can shoot my '73 way faster than those mdl 94s! None of my levers are as accurate as my bolt guns beyond 50 yards. Ever. Even when my eyes really were 20/15, instead of whatever they are now. But, I've never needed them to be. Minute of deer, yes, minute of SASS target, yes... minute of knat'sass, no. To keep my quals up for the dept, I had to be a MOA shooter out to 500 yards. And the gun also... my custom levergun... could do the job out to 100 yards in goofin' off, but beyond that it took the that 700 PS as they called it.

[AJMD429]

If it is a 'bench' gun for target shooting or varminting, I'd pick the bolt-gun unless I was just fiddling to see what I could do with a levergun I'd probably use for stand-up shooting or hunting later.

The other poster was right about the additive errors of gun plus shooter (and I'd add, plus ammo). So if the shooter is a '3 moa' shooter with his regular ammo and a perfect 1-hole shooting gun, he'll be something like a 4 moa shooter with a 1 moa bolt action and a 6 moa shooter with a 3 moa lever action (if indeed that particular lever action is not as accurate as that particular bolt action). Either gun will get dinner on the table, unless you're planning to eat prarie dogs or head-shot squirrels, and of course if the lever gun is handier and faster, it could actually put more meat on the table. OTOH, if you're going to buy the meat at the grocery with money you win scoring high on paper, you'd best grab the bolt gun in this example.

[junkwrencher]

After reading some of the durability comments I must tell a couple of things that I experienced. A long time ago I became involved in a situation that required me to kill a deer with my rifle. I had run out of ammunition and lost my knife and had used all other means. Needless to say I literally broke the stock off my Marlin 336. The tang as all levergunners understand were not damaged at all and the gun could have been fired had I any ammuntion left. Another incident involved a cased levergun, an atv, and two trees that were very close together. Again the stock broke but the rifle could still be fired. Most bolt guns break at the wrist of the stock and cannot be fired. Don't ask me how I know...

[Old Time Hunter]

Why did the U.S. military opt for bolts over levers back in the day?

'Cause a levergun is easier to cycle while on the move, both forward and especially while moving backward. Back in the day, you withdrew quitely and in staged withdrawals.....just my .02

Also, bolts were cheaper to produce. Mausers are still the toughest rifle ever made, you had to run 'em over twice with a tank to wreck 'em.