pistol caliber lever action hunting

justin22885 · Post by **justin22885** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:53 am

im looking for a lever action and pistol (most likely single action revolver) combination... im not into the cowboy action shooting, i just think it makes very, very good economical sense to have a sort of setup like this to focus most of my ammo funds onto... so a set that can do everything i need

so im looking for people who hunt with pistol caliber lever actions such as the winchester 92, and marlin 94

what sort of velocities and energies could i expect from an 18-20 inch lever action with loads within SAAMI pressure regulations, so to be safe to also fire from a lever action, in .45lc, .357 magnum, and .44-40... id like to go as hot as i can to deliver as clean and humane of a kill as possible, without damaging the revolver, since i want to find only one load for both, so i can focus on all the same ammunition components, same powder types, charge, etc...

currently in the lead is a beretta stampede .357 magnum revolver, close behind are the uberti cattleman in 357 or 45lc, or the remington 1875 in .44-40

as for rifles, i was considering some older toggle link designs like the henrys, the 73 winchester... but i heard these rifles wouldnt handle these calibers in the upper range of their SAAMI pressure range, and that only the winchester 92 or marlin 94 could be used, is this true?

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:04 pm

I have a Ruger Super RedHawk in .480 Ruger, and a model 92 in the same caliber. For the rifle I was given a tip by Mike Rintoul to use a slower powder such as IMR4227, and he was absolutely right. I get a little better velocity than with the faster powders, about 150 fps on average, the Hodgdon website says the pressure is lower, and the same bullets work well in the pistol. L'il Gun works great in the pistol, but it gets the rifle barrel hot much faster than I prefer. WW296 and/or H110 work good in both, and Longshot is great for reduced loads in the pistol but the accuracy in the rifle is oddly a lot off. Summation: It is a great idea to have a load for both the rifle and pistol and you can have a lot of fun finding what works well in both. It may cost a little to try several powders and bullet weights, but look at all the fun you can have doing it. Compare the cost of the reloading to what it cost to go to a movie. as expensive as the movie+popcorn+drink are getting and for only about 2 hours of fun, the reloading last a lot longer and can be much more useful.

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:09 pm

WHY DO THE NEW GUYS COME IN HERE WITHOUT SO MUCH AS A HOWDY-DO AND ASK QUESTIONS IT WOULD TAKE THREE BOOKS AND A HELL OF A LOT OF MONEY TO ANSWER ???
JUST ASKIN'...

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:19 pm

justin22885 wrote:im looking for a lever action and pistol (most likely single action revolver) combination... im not into the cowboy action shooting, i just think it makes very, very good economical sense to have a sort of setup like this to focus most of my ammo funds onto... so a set that can do everything i need

so im looking for people who hunt with pistol caliber lever actions such as the winchester 92, and marlin 94

what sort of velocities and energies could i expect from an 18-20 inch lever action with loads within SAAMI pressure regulations, so to be safe to also fire from a lever action, in .45lc, .357 magnum, and .44-40... id like to go as hot as i can to deliver as clean and humane of a kill as possible, without damaging the revolver, since i want to find only one load for both, so i can focus on all the same ammunition components, same powder types, charge, etc...

currently in the lead is a beretta stampede .357 magnum revolver, close behind are the uberti cattleman in 357 or 45lc, or the remington 1875 in .44-40

as for rifles, i was considering some older toggle link designs like the henrys, the 73 winchester... but i heard these rifles wouldnt handle these calibers in the upper range of their SAAMI pressure range, and that only the winchester 92 or marlin 94 could be used, is this true?

If you're interested, I have some gel tests on the .357 mag carbine on my website. I can't speak for the other rounds, but out of a carbine with a good bullet, no whitetail will tell the difference between a .357 and a 30-30. Some 158 grain loads have exceeded 1900 f/s from a carbine.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:27 pm

Welcome to the fire Justin.

Terry, he probably heard that you're hanging around here and figured that he'd get a straight answer.

And my read on this is in a Levergun, you are good to go for white tail and the like with .357 Mag on up. I personally prefer the 44 Mag and 45 Colt.

The 44 Mag is better if you don't handload.

But the .357 Mag with a full power 158 or better yet, 180 grian load - like a Hornady XTP will blow right on through a whitetail. The 44 Mag just does it more - bigger hole, and you can shoot from just about any direction and the bullet (240 grain or more like Hornady XTP) will get to the vitals and drop the animal.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:32 pm

with a .357 and velocities ranging from 1000 to 1400 fps, I'm grouping 2" at 100yds with both a 24" barrel and tang sights, and a 22" barrel with a 3x Malcolm scope.
from what I've read, the most accurate groupings with .357 are right around 1200 fps, but with jacketed 180-gr. lead, you can push up to 1800 fps with reasonable pressures and at 75-yds, impact energies are way over 600 ft-lbs. COSteve has posted some of the hottest .357 loads I've seen on this board. You might search for a recent thread he authored about hunting .357.

I wouldn't recommend a '73 for whitetail hunting, because you're limited to 20,000 psi pressure, which means lighter lead and lower velocities.

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:51 pm

I'm a .44 guy so that is all I'll speak about. Have a .357 rifle/pistol combo but just don't use them anymore.

I like Marlin Cowboys for most of my hunting now. My first combo is a 24" version with a 2-7x Leupold and a 7 1/2" OM Ruger Flattop. I like 23grs of W296 and a 260gr RCBS cast bullet in both. I get right at 1800fps from the rifle, 1312fps from the FT. This is what I use during elk season about 80% of the time (occasionally the 348, 38-55 and others need their time out...!)

My second combo is a 24" Cowboy with a Williams receiver sight and a 4 3/4" OM Ruger Flattop. A 255gr RCBS SWC and 9grs of Unique is sure death on deer from both firearms. Velocity is about 1400fps and 1050fps respectively. This is a load I've used since the '70's for 90% of my .44 shootin'.

My 3rd combo has turned out to be my most used anymore. A 20" Cowboy with a Williams receiver sight also, paired with one of the new Ruger Flattops in .44 special. I use the same 255gr SWC and 7 1/2grs of Unique from 44 special brass. About 1150fps and 850fps respectively. This is not just superbly accurate, but very very quiet too while still packing a punch. I use this combo around 9 months of the year while on the trail hiking and scouting, right up through grouse season to nip their little heads off, as long as I'm not chasing them with one of my pointers

2x22

deerwhacker444 · Post by **deerwhacker444** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:00 pm

Howdy Justin

All I know is my .357 Marlin 1894 kills deer with quality loads out to as far as I'd care to take a shot with open sights. And I imagine that all the other cartridges you listed would do likewise out of whatever factory firearms you choose.

Terry Murbach wrote:WHY DO THE NEW GUYS COME IN HERE WITHOUT SO MUCH AS A HOWDY-DO AND ASK QUESTIONS IT WOULD TAKE THREE BOOKS AND A HELL OF A LOT OF MONEY TO ANSWER ???
JUST ASKIN'...

Probably because within each forum there's a few ol' crusty cranky individuals with so much knowledge and experience that they can give a three book answer in a few sentences....

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:27 pm

bulldog1935 wrote:COSteve has posted some of the hottest .357 loads I've seen on this board. You might search for a recent thread he authored about hunting .357.

My 'hot' loads that bulldog1935 are referring to are actually under the recommended max of 16.7grns Hodgdon's 2002, 2008, and 2009 manuals list for H110 with a 158grn jacketed bullet.

Their 2002 manual shows 357mag rifle performance as well as pistol and their data shows the max charge yielding 1,757fps from an 18.5" Marlin levergun. I use Wolf small rifle magnum primers with my H110 and 158grn Zero JSP bullets in both my 24" Rossi rifle and 20" Rossi carbines and at 6,100ft asl. on an 84° day, my 24" rifle will shoot a 10rd string at 1,822fps.

BTW, my velocities aren't anything special as Buffalo Bore Ammo claims that their Hunting 158grn XTP loaded 357mag ammo reaches 2,153fps from an 18.5" Marlin levergun.

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:35 pm

Welcome Justin. I shoot mostly old levers in 44-40 and 38-40 if I use revolver calibers. I try and keep them under 100 yds and do fine.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:47 pm

justin22885 wrote:{I'}m looking for a lever action and pistol (most likely single action revolver) combination... {I'}m not into cowboy action shooting, i just think it makes very, very good economical sense to have a setup like this to focus most of my ammo funds {i}nto... so a set that can do everything {I} need{.}

{S}o {I'}m looking for people who hunt with pistol caliber lever actions such as the {W}inchester {18}92, and Marlin {18}94{.}

{W}hat sort of velocities and energies could i expect from an 18-20 inch lever action with loads within SAAMI pressure regulations, {also} safe to fire from a lever action, in .45lc, .357 magnum, and .44-40. {I'}d like to go as hot as i can to deliver as clean and humane of a kill as possible, without damaging the revolver, since {I} want to find only one load for both, so {I} can focus on all the same ammunition components, same powder types, charge, etc.

{C}urrently in the lead is a {B}eretta {S}tampede .357 magnum revolver, close behind are the {U}berti {C}attleman in {.}357{RemMag} or {.}45{Colt}, or the {R}emington 1875 in .44-40{.}

{A}s for rifles, {I} was considering some older toggle link designs like the {1860 H}enry, the {'}73 {W}inchester... but {I} heard these rifles {won't} handle these calibers in the upper range of their SAAMI pressure range, and that only the {W}inchester {18}92 or {M}arlin {18}94 could be used, is this true?

Short answer: NO.
1st, You gotta understand, Terry is our resident expert... and as Deerwacker said, could probably answer your questions in 3 words... (Deerwhacker exaggerates)!!!

2nd, He only types in uppercase... and he's NOT yelling... your typing in lowercase, sans punctuation probably sounded like whisperin'... don't take it personal.
3rd, and possibly most important... is... it's a Marlin 1894; only Winchester changed their model designation to "94."

As for velocities and pressures in any of the pistols or rifles you named...? There are far too many variables to give detailed info. Your specific firearm can vary from example to example, and the components have a tremendous impact. However, for the modern made clones of Henry 1860, Winchester 1873 and the Colt SAA, as well as the Modern Colt SAA; they are all chambered in .357 Mag, .44-40 and .45Colt. So, ergo, they will perform with loads no greater than SAAMI specs. However, be advised, that loads in the +P version of the .45 Colt will exceed SAAMI specs, and should not be used in these firearms. LIkewise, if you plan on hot-roddin' any pistol ammo, plan on buying one of the Ruger models or the Freedom Arms version of the SA.

Standard ammo in any of the calibers and rifles mentioned is capable of cleanly taking deer as well as other game, at appropriate ranges. However, if you handload and think about pushing the envelope, stay away from the Colt clones and the toggle links. IMO, the Winchester 1892 action is the better (read: stronger) of it and the Marlin 1894. Check out some of the Articles here for specifics on all three calibers.

You'll probably get all kinds of answers... but that's the view from my saddle.

EDIT: Also, forget the Beretta Stampede... you'll be much happier with one of the Uberti copies or a Pietta. I'd recommend spending a little more and going for the Cimarron "Evil Roy", the Taylors' "Smoke Wagon" or the EMF "Great Western II".

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:50 pm

justin22885

Welcome to the forum.

OK, others have commented on the .357, 44 Mag, and .44-40 so I'll take the .45 Colt.

With standard pressure 14,000 PSI loads you can expect approximately 300 fps increase over the revolver with a 20" rifle barrel. That means if your shooting the standard 255gr @ 850 load you'll get around 1100 fps from the rifle.

Now, if you are going to shoot Colt pressure level guns and toggle link action rifles you can play with all sorts of slower burning powders to get there. Some of them will get you a bit more from the rifle.

My suggestion for the .45 Colt combo is simple, get a Ruger Blackhawk or Vaquero and a Winchester 94, or a 92 modern copy, or a modern Marlin 1894 and don't worry about restricting yourself to standard loads. You can hunt with them in some locations. I know for a fact that standard pressure .45 Colt loads from a revolver will not be legal in IL and WY. And I'm sure there are other states with silly FPE or velocity laws as well.

There is one other thing I'll mention about the toggle length rifles. They are bullet and cartridge over all length critical. Basically with them you're stuck with the RNFP bullets.

If you just have to have a Colt copy and toggle link rifle, I'd really suggest getting them in 44-40.

Velocity and going as hot as you can go is not going to guarantee a clean kill. Only practice, proper hunting techniques, and accurately placing the bullet in the kill zone will do that. That is up to you.

Joe

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:57 pm

Welcome Justin,

As was said before don't mind Terry he's not as cranky as he lets on. He's just so old he won't even buy green bananas any more.

The short answer is get a .357 until you're up to more recoil. Recoil can be a hard thing to master. A dead center hit with a .357 will be much more effective and a near miss with anything else you can name, no mater how hot you load it. You can load you .357's with .38 specials to start and move up slowly from there.

justin22885 · Post by **justin22885** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:45 pm

ive did some ballistics research, and talked to some other guys.. apparently buffalo bore has a 158 grain 357 magnum load that produced 2,153fps out of an 18.5 inch barrel... doing a calculation with those figures.. that 1,626ft/lbs at the muzzle, their ballistics chart reads over 450ft/lbs of energy out to 200 yards which is a +P 9mm or 45acp figure

so when i was told the 357 and such loads would easily mock a 30-30 and comfortable take deer AND elk out to 100-150 yards... even deer out to 200.. they werent joking... and these loads i mention are within the SAAMI specs for a standard pressure load.. they are not +P and are safe to fire from a single action reproduction

so all of this in mind, and the fact 357 is easily the most available out of any of these, cheaper brass, more available ammo, and im sure ill collect some 357 double actions later on... i think the 357 is going to be my beast of choice here

this all being said.. my revolver will be either an uberti cattleman which is an exact clone, or the beretta stampede which uses the same frame but adds a transfer bar safety, either 4 3/4 or 5 1/2 inch barrel

this means for my lever action, it turns out neither of the henrys are even offered in 357... though offered in the winchester 73, that might be pushing it, i guess my choice for the lever will be either the winchester 92.. or the marlin 94

it doesnt matter to me that winchesters are top ejecting.. i dont use scopes, with such cartridges for hunting i believe if i cant see it.. i probably cant safely, humanely kill it, so why add the weight?

so does anyone have any input on these two lever designs? i know the 94 marlin is essentially a scaled down 336, which is rated as probably the best lever action design out there.. and an 1894C can be had for about $500 new... so as of now thats the path im thinking of going

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:01 pm

If you're going to those loads from Buffalo Bore, I believe they're over the recommended pressure levels for the Colt SAA or its clones. You better figure on a Ruger Blackhawk or the Vaquero. Do not use them with even the New Model Vaquero, it's only recommended for the Colt type loads.

Get the Rossi 1892. Either in the 20" carbine or the 24" rifle, depending on what you feel comfortable with. Figure on doing some smoothin' and lightenin' or just buy the finished rifle from Nate Kiowa Jones... you be much happier. I have 3 Rossi 1892s, and like all of them. 2 in .357 and 1 in .45 Colt. I worked the actions over on all three to smooth 'em.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:18 pm

Sounds like you've already made up your mind.

I've got a .357 "combo" in a Ruger NM Blackhawk/Ruger GP100 and a Marlin 1894C.

I spent some time a while back playing with different flavors of factory ammo and settled on one that I liked, not because of it's superior performance in either arm, but because it performed acceptably in both. That would be the American Eagle 158gr JSP. My best guesstimate is I get about 1200fps MV out of a 4" GP100 and about 1800fps out of the Marlin. Plus or minus 1000fps, (I did say guesstimate, didn't I?)

I tried the Buffalo Bore stuff and it shoots very well from the 1894C. Shoots straight, hits hard, but I question whether it is safe for use in a handgun.

I've killed several white-tailed deer, feral hogs, a black bear, and a jackrabbit/sasquatch with it. One shot carefully placed for each critter, and none of them wandered away.

One thing I did have to do right off the bat was change those Marlin factory sights. I set some XS sights on top and was good to go.

I'd stack the little carbine up against any thing else I own for shootability, and the fun quotient. I've put thousands of rounds thru it plinking. It's just fun and easy to shoot.

I don't hesitate to keep it in the truck just to have one around.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:25 pm

Deleted

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:08 pm

Terry Murbach wrote:WHY DO THE NEW GUYS COME IN HERE WITHOUT SO MUCH AS A HOWDY-DO AND ASK QUESTIONS IT WOULD TAKE THREE BOOKS AND A HELL OF A LOT OF MONEY TO ANSWER ???
JUST ASKIN'...

Because they know we're just THAT GOOD...!

justin22885 · Post by **justin22885** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:23 pm

yeah.. someone stated already, buffalo bore doesnt make +P 357 magnum ammunition, so their loads are within SAAMI standard specs and they even mention on their website their ammo is safe in ALL 357 revolvers.. considering how much thicker the chamber walls in the 357 single action army are (im pretty sure theyre the same size cylinders as the .45lc and .44-40)... so itll hold the pressure just fine

and these rounds im probably going to shoot a lot, even for target practice... i want to be used to these loads in both.. for self defense you cant argue with raw power or for hunting... since ill be reloading its all going to pretty much cost the same anyway and i have no real reason to believe itll damage an SAA made with new steel

a friend of mine shoots some rather hot loads out of his second generation colt in 357

i know.. everyones going to tell me im crazy for even thinking about carrying a single action for defense.. but lets put it this way... with the recoil of a 357 revolver... im going to be able to pull that hammer back and fire again before im able to reaquire the target anyway, if not.. i can still fire 3 rounds in two seconds, maybe even a little faster (and this is without fanning or thumbing)...

and then heres the important factor... out of all handguns i have ever handled, i have no once ever handled a handgun, be it black powder, single action revolver, double action revolver, or automatic that had a balance or natural pointability anywhere even remotely close to that of the colt single action army... im not the cowboy type, will most likely never do cowboy action shooting.. the fact is just there.. i never have, probably never will hold something that fits me as perfectly as a colt single action does

anyway.. i find most people absolutely love the winchester.. but take a couple stars off because of its top ejection making scopes impossible, or atleast very difficult... since i dont use scopes, and on a 357 lever action anything i need a scope to see is probably too far to guarantee a clean kill, i might just go with a 92 clone on this one

all of that said... im leaning towards the uberti clone right now.. i can find ways to deal with the lack of a transfer bar safety, and if not, id love the opportunity to test some of the ideas i had anyway... but thats probably not an appropriate topic here, so i doubt anyone wants to know

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:12 pm

FWiedner wrote: Plus or minus 1000fps, (I did say guesstimate, didn't I?)

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:19 pm

It took me a while to figure Terry out too.

He's not an "artist", so don't expect him to paint any pretty pictures.

By his record, of getting kicked off forums, he does not have a problem telling the "emperor" that he doesn't have any clothes on. You'll learn if you listen.

..........you have to respect someone like that.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:40 pm

justin22885 wrote:yeah.. someone stated already, buffalo bore doesnt make +P 357 magnum ammunition, so their loads are within SAAMI standard specs and they even mention on their website their ammo is safe in ALL 357 revolvers.. considering how much thicker the chamber walls in the 357 single action army are (im pretty sure theyre the same size cylinders as the .45lc and .44-40)... so itll hold the pressure just fine
The Colts and clones in .357 are not restricted to the lighter loads as is the .45 Colt. But if you get a lesser quality clone you can shoot them loose. Not that I'd worry about it at all. All my .357 ammo is full power. Some is even loaded to the original higher SAAMI speck. 42K PSI I think.
The modern reduced pressure loads are even easier on guns.

and these rounds im probably going to shoot a lot, even for target practice... i want to be used to these loads in both.. for self defense you cant argue with raw power or for hunting... since ill be reloading its all going to pretty much cost the same anyway and i have no real reason to believe itll damage an SAA made with new steel
It wont as long as you don't go nuts with the pressure.

a friend of mine shoots some rather hot loads out of his second generation colt in 357
Define "rather hot loads". Many people cringe at the blast and recoil of a +P 38 so a normal .357 causes them to wet themselves.

i know.. everyones going to tell me im crazy for even thinking about carrying a single action for defense.. but lets put it this way... with the recoil of a 357 revolver... im going to be able to pull that hammer back and fire again before im able to reaquire the target anyway, if not.. i can still fire 3 rounds in two seconds, maybe even a little faster (and this is without fanning or thumbing)...
Not me. I carry a single action too. Most often in .45 Colt, but I also have an OM BH in .357.

and then heres the important factor... out of all handguns i have ever handled, i have no once ever handled a handgun, be it black powder, single action revolver, double action revolver, or automatic that had a balance or natural pointability anywhere even remotely close to that of the colt single action army... im not the cowboy type, will most likely never do cowboy action shooting.. the fact is just there.. i never have, probably never will hold something that fits me as perfectly as a colt single action does
No argument there either.

anyway.. i find most people absolutely love the winchester.. but take a couple stars off because of its top ejection making scopes impossible, or atleast very difficult... since i dont use scopes, and on a 357 lever action anything i need a scope to see is probably too far to guarantee a clean kill, i might just go with a 92 clone on this one
I don't take any points off for top ejection. I prefer it. AE models are ugly and a bit weaker than the top eject models. I don't scope lever guns either, it destroys their balance and handling qualities. 92 clones are good. Try to find one without the dorky safety on the bolt. They look better and there's less to go wrong.
The only things I take points off for is rebounding hammers and added safety gadgets. Those I despise.

all of that said... im leaning towards the uberti clone right now.. i can find ways to deal with the lack of a transfer bar safety, and if not, id love the opportunity to test some of the ideas i had anyway... but thats probably not an appropriate topic here, so i doubt anyone wants to know
Uberti copies are good. Some of them are really good. I have one, I like it. As for the transfer bar why the hell would you want a gun with one of those? With the appropriate caution and use of the proper handling technique the old style single actions are just as safe as those with transfer bars are.
Now, as for appropriate topics, Look at the top of the page:
Forum rules

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

We mean that. If you wanna discuss replacing safety gadgets or doing away with key locks go for it.

Joe

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:42 pm

Interesting question, those long timers here have seen it gone over but there are always newer folks with the same interests. In any case it seems you always see something new come out, Welcome!

Hankster · Post by **Hankster** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:21 pm

I Actually just got a .357 carbine to match my Cattleman..so this thread is VERY interesting and timely!! Thanks for asking it, always a wealth of good info here!!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:35 pm

We took a lot of deer with 44 mags in Alaska. My son used my Marlin 1894 with 240g jsp factory loads. Killed every deer it hit at whatever range, never recovered a bullet.

I shot quite a few with a superblackhawk loaded with 320g pb cast. Most deer dropped dead right there. Some heart shot ones ran a ways.

Problem with the Marlin is the very slow twist barrel. I couldn't get the 325g loads to stabilize, so I had to carry two loads. I finally gave up on a single load for 44 mag combinations. I could do it with a faster barrel.

I shot some deer with a Smith 66 4". Some were dead right there, some weren't. I decided I didn't care for .357 revolver for hunting them because it didn't stack up against my 44 experience. I have a 94 that I load with 185g cast now, but have not hunted with it, so no help with that.

Marshall Stanton did ag work and used a .357 carbine. He told me that out of the hundreds of deer he shot with it, only one needed a second shot. High recommendation I'd say for the .357 in carbines.

Regards,

Grizz

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:41 pm

This question is likely to run many pages. my choice was .357 - I have three handguns in the caliber and a rossi model 92 tuned by NKJ in the caliber. the handguns are a Bond derringer, a 3" j-frame smith with night sights, and a ruger speed six. I don't have bear in my normal areas I hunt and anything from Deer on down in size can be handled in the ranges and type of hunting I do.

If I was in alaska, I would go with the .475 Linebaugh and the .480 Ruger lever gun. I don't own the .480 lever, but I would if I wanted to combo up (which makes great sense in my book).

Another combo, and probably the best of both worlds without going the extreme would be the .45 colt. I have two .45 Colt revolvers (actually, one is on the way but paid for) and this caliber is more versatile, more powerful, has a bigger diameter than the .357. Energies are way up there and the caliber could take anything on this continent. My custom ruger 3 screw is becoming one of my favorites and the Freedom Arms 97 .45colt/.45acp combo will be a nice addition to the ranks. I look to those revolvers as being able to offer protection against man and beast and act as suitable hunting calibers. I don't own a lever in this caliber but it would be Rossi 92 if I did. Again, slicked by nkj.

So there you go, I skip over the .429 mag. If I can't take it with the .357, I'd go to the .45colt, it can do all the .429 can do and more. IF that didn't work, I'd go to my .475 linebaugh (which can also shoot .480 Ruger). If I needed anything else, I'd be our of luck in a handgun.

(having said all of that, the better combo might be a .22 pistol and .45colt lever, or a .45colt revolver and a .22 lever) there are many in the big/small, small/big combo corner. In any pistol caliber combo, you should consider reloading because once you start shooting them together, you are going to go through a lot of ammo!!! good luck in your choice and welcome to the fire.

m

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:56 pm

Grizz wrote:Problem with the Marlin is the very slow twist barrel. I couldn't get the 325g loads to stabilize, so I had to carry two loads. I finally gave up on a single load for 44 mag combinations. I could do it with a faster barrel.

That's why you should get a .44 Magnum RUGER 96 (top gun in photo below, above the stainless Marlin 1984, and the blued Rossi 92) instead, with its 1:20 twist (and detachable magazine...

):

jdad wrote:It took me a while to figure Terry out too. . . . By his record of getting kicked off forums, he does not have a problem telling the "emperor" that he doesn't have any clothes on. You'll learn if you listen...you have to respect someone like that.

We could sure use a few hundred thousand of him as physicians, and maybe we'd fix the health-care system.

In fact, we could use a few MILLION Terry's in the voting booth these days...

...back to the original topic...

If I hadn't shot much before, and/or wanted something the whole family could easily learn to shoot, and wanted the ability to use dirt-cheap ammo, I'd go for the .357 'family'. .357 Mag Marlin (if you liked scopes; or if you like peeps, but don't want to drill and tap your gun yourself) or Puma (since you don't like scopes, or if you don't mind installing a Williams FP peep yourself or having one installed). .357 Mag 'field' handgun (SA revolver ok and YES it can double for self-defense!), with the options to add later a .357 or .38 'snubbie' for CCW, or maybe even a .35 Remington for your 'long range' rifle (it can share many of the same bullets, with due consideration as to different constructions for different needs):

If I were comfortable with more recoil, and had no 'newbies' in the family to worry about training, and didn't mind just a bit more cost for a bit more lead, I'd go for the same concept with a .429 'family'. .44 Mag Carbine with peep sights, .444 Marlin Rifle for longer range or heavier duty, .44 Mag Ruger for 'field' carry, and .44 Special for CCW. :

Before I'm accused of blasphemy, yes, you CAN have a .45 'family', but the bore diameter between the .45 Colt or .454 Casull isn't the same as for the .45-70, which bugs obsessive-compulsive types like me who stay awake at night worrying about what would happen if they ran out of bullets for their .458 guns and only had .454 ones, or vice versa...

More experienced gunners than me simply stock up on BOTH diameters and don't worry about it.

If you dislike SCOPES, you might find this thread on 'peeps' of help:

Halfway down the page I posted a bunch of aperture sight pictures for comparison purposes - http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=20342

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:58 pm

45 Colt of course with the Tutt Superloads. 360 Gr Keith at 1350 fps.

justin22885 · Post by **justin22885** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:57 pm

wow... i posted the initial topic like... yesterday, this is a lot of reading... but ive decided for sure im going with 357, decided for sure im going with a 4 3/4" single action army clone.. decided for sure im getting a winchester lever action to go with it

whats left to decide is the uberti which is an exact clone (probably buy it through cimarron) or the beretta, uses the same frames but adds the transfer bar safety.

later on, id love to get a colt brand third generation single action army. ill pay the money for one when i have the money... so i might take a hit on the historical accuracy points and get the beretta stampede pending the balance and the feel is still there.. but im still on the fence about that

im also on the fence about the lever action, the 73 and 92 will both handle the loads i intend to use... the 73 is the most popular pistol caliber winchester made.. and the 92 is probably the best one ever made

so the wanting sometihng historically accurate part of me says uberti/73, but the practical, more logical side says stampede/92

now heres something just off the top of my head.. not even a major serious though.. and just out of curiosity.. but would the self lubricating teflon based gun finish for internal parts prevent brass from sticking in the chambers if it was applies to the inside of the chambers?... allowing me to rarely need to use the ejection rod, if ever?... this isnt something im going to put forth the time, effort, or money to do... its just something i was wondering

one more thing i was curious about.. since i cant buy the revolver for another couple months (new york state pistol permits take time).... has anyone ever tried feeding a single action army from a bianchi speed strip to use a speed strip as an easier, more organized way to carry spare ammunition than loose cartridges? this is an idea im quite interested in because a couple speed strips easily fit in a pocket or even a small pouch on the holster itself

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:22 am

speed strips will work but get a magazine meant for a 357 autoloader like coonan arms or magnum research works 100% better. danny

justin22885 · Post by **justin22885** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:07 am

bigsky66, you know i had that same EXACT idea earlier... having a magazine but with the lips bent to a point where i could just pull a cartridge off the end like you would with a stripper clip (i use stripper clips in my nagant).. then you could load a spring loaded magazine and just pull one off the top as you need it... i had an idea of bending thin sheet metal to make an 18 round double-stack magazine like device like that specifically for loading the revolver... figured on 18 because it would give me 3 complete reloads, but in an effort to carry less weight on my.. should drop that down to 12

but i figured speed strips would probably be just as fast.. lighter to carry, and much cheaper.. you can get them for about $2.50 for two of them i believe, and if i buy the 8-rounders but just load them with six, ill have a longer piece to grip onto

for anyone who has tried the beretta stampede, does the transfer bar safety added to the action of the trigger system effect the action or feel of the trigger in any noticable way? thats my biggest concern with the stampede, as a friend of mine who has tuned and modified SAAs for hollywood movies and a few of his own, hes a great source of information on tweaking them (such as filing the mainspring to reduce the hammer pull weight)... but if the stampede is internally too different it wouldnt matter

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:58 am

justin22885 wrote:for anyone who has tried the beretta stampede, does the transfer bar safety added to the action of the trigger system effect the action or feel of the trigger in any noticable way? thats my biggest concern with the stampede, as a friend of mine who has tuned and modified SAAs for hollywood movies and a few of his own, hes a great source of information on tweaking them (such as filing the mainspring to reduce the hammer pull weight)... but if the stampede is internally too different it wouldnt matter

There's nothing wrong with the Beretta Stampede's, I have and shoot two of them and they both shoot to point of aim and are more accurate than I am. My only turn off on them is the "painted" case hardening. When it wears off I'll have it done right. The mainsprings are the same as any other Uberti, the method the transfer bar works, or the fact that is just has one, is just something that some people don't care for.

I'll also endorse the .357 caliber rifle/pistol combo. If you do you're part and are reasonable about ranges it'll do the job quite well.

Rob

justin22885 · Post by **justin22885** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:46 pm

30-30 energies out of a lever action i cant complain with for hunting....

but with the stampede, is the feel of the hammer and trigger the same? is there any unusual roughness or feel to the pull and such or does it feel just like handling a colt, less one click on the hammer?

also, im leaning far more towards the 1892 right now, its a rifle im sure i can find a lot more parts for without as much of a hard time as i would with the 73... someone mentioned avoiding bolt safeties.. what about tang safeties?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:16 pm

Justin,

The safety issue is a personal one with a lot of lever gunners. It's an afterthought idea fostered on us by lawyers and bean counters.

The absolute worst of the bunch is the Winchester 94AEs with the rebounding hammer action and the cross bolt safety. That CB has a tendency to get knocked to the "ON" position when you need it in the "FIRE" position. There are a number of folks on this forum who several years ago became really angry because of that happening. In the early 2000s Win replaced that horrid thing with the tang safety. Not nearly as bad, but it's still a lawyer inspired after thought. All the U.S.A. and Miroku made Winchesters since the early 2000s have both the tang safety and rebounding action. They fall into the second worst category. Not so much for the tang safety, but for the rebounding hammer action. It's prone to light firing pin strikes and extremely rough, gritty, creepy, and heavy trigger pulls.
That is why so many of us have removed the safeties and replaced the rebounding hammer actions with old style half cock actions.

The best of the batch is the various incarnations of the Rossi 92 copies. Since the mid 2000s I think all of them have had that idiotic bolt safety switch, but it is the easiest and simplest to remove. The Rossis also use the old style half cock action. Once tuned a bit they are quite smooth and unless abused you'll probably never need to do anything but clean them.

The second best of the batch is the Marlin lever guns with their old style half cock actions and small unobtrusive CB safety. Very easy to deal with and not nearly as prone to unwanted engagement as the Win version.

I didn't include the Uberti toggle link guns because I'm not convinced about using the .357 mag with full pressure ammo in them. Others do it regularly with no consequences, but .....
As for the actions all of them are almost carbon copies of the originals, made from modern steels. In their original calibers I'd not hesitate to carry one hunting or just shooting.

Parts: the Ubertis have a very good parts supply in VTI and the various importers such as Cimarron. The Rossis, well maybe yes, maybe no. Marlins absolutely. Winchesters are OK for now, but in another year or three I'll bet we see Browning sell off their remaining parts and that will be the last of the factory OEM supply.
The thing is as long as you do not abuse them you'll need very few parts.

Here's a thing I've found out over the years. When I buy a gun and stock up on extra parts, nothing ever breaks. If I don't stock up on parts, sometimes it has. I have parts for everything but my Marlins. Guess I better get busy before Marlin goes belly up.

Joe

justin22885 · Post by **justin22885** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:06 pm

it always seems to turn out that way.. never have something around when you dont need it, then its not there when you do... a common quote for the support of owning firearms for defense too

so... what about the uberti 92 clones? i was looking to get one of these from cimarron, was also wondering how these, rossi, and puma 92s stack up to the origionals?

i do plan on getting a small mill in the near future... at which point i might start backwards engineering my parts so i can make them later, when i need them from tool steel or carbon steel stock.... also want to make me a highwall or sharps, whichever can best handle modern 45-70 loads (the really powerful ones)

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:20 pm

YOU MIGHT TAKE A MOMENT TO LOOK AT THE NEW WINCHESTER '92's COMING IN FROM MIROKU AT THE J.A. PAN COMPANY. THESE ARE AS NICE AS THE BROWNING 92 I HAVE AND ARE A BIT MORE MUZZLE HEAVY FROM HAVING A LARGER DIAMETER BARREL. I AM TELLING YOU, THESE ARE REALLY---REALLY !!!---NICE CARBINES AND I SAW ONE WITH A PISTOL GRIP STOCK AND ONE WITH A STRAIGHT GRIP STOCK. I SAW 'EM IN 357MAG AND 45COLT NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT.
OF COURSE THE TWO NEW '95 WINCHESTER RIFLES SITTING BESIDE 'EM MADE MY DOBBER QUIVER.....WOOOOOEEEEE...!!!

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:35 pm

TMI!!!

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:55 pm

justin22885 wrote:but with the stampede, is the feel of the hammer and trigger the same? is there any unusual roughness or feel to the pull and such or does it feel just like handling a colt, less one click on the hammer?

The face of the trigger is wider than a standard "Colt" clone, but mine are smooth all the way thru with more than acceptable trigger pulls for un-worked guns, I had a regular Uberti that wasn't near as smooth. I haven't done any work on them yet, just shot them and I do spend alot of time in front of the tube cycling the actions. (just lovin' on 'em a little bit

)

Rob

justin22885 · Post by **justin22885** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:07 pm

well, that was my biggest concern about the beretta.. that it wouldnt "feel" like a colt when it comes to cocking the hammer or operating the trigger... either model aside, i can easy tune the trigger... shouldnt make much difference on feel then

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:49 pm

.357 s&w. extremely versatile and cheap to shoot. very

justin22885 · Post by **justin22885** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:13 pm

im still looking into 92 clones, might get an cimarron though.. those are true to the origionals, no safety i believe

justin22885 · Post by **justin22885** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:40 pm

actually.. i think ive decided on the marlin 1894c lever action with 18.5 inch barrel in 357 magnum

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:43 pm

Terry Murbach wrote:WHY DO THE NEW GUYS COME IN HERE WITHOUT SO MUCH AS A HOWDY-DO AND ASK QUESTIONS IT WOULD TAKE THREE BOOKS AND A HELL OF A LOT OF MONEY TO ANSWER ???
JUST ASKIN'...

Terry,

It would be a bit nicer if folks would introduce themselves a bit before asking such questions. I believe though that they are as completely ignorant of the complexities involved as I am of the many aspects of brain surgery. Of course, a bit of reading, a quick Google search and/or chat would sort that out but in our world time is everything and of course they don't know us.

Have you noticed too, how so many ask such a question as their first post and never stick around? I was doing a little informal and admittedly relaxed research and it seems to me that most that do such as this don't hang around but there are a number of exceptions.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:46 pm

justin22885 wrote:actually.. i think ive decided on the marlin 1894c lever action with 18.5 inch barrel in 357 magnum

Justin, I think you'll be as happy as can be with that gun. It is as near to an east coast USA all-around levergun as there is. Ammo is relatively cheap & available and it is extremely flexible without needing to reload. Recoil is nil. I love mine.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:51 pm

justin22885 wrote:well, that was my biggest concern about the beretta.. that it wouldnt "feel" like a colt when it comes to cocking the hammer or operating the trigger... either model aside, i can easy tune the trigger... shouldnt make much difference on feel then

Sorry, it doesn't feel like a C-O-L-T, it feels like a RU-GER.

justin22885 · Post by **justin22885** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:39 pm

last time i handled a single action army was 10 years ago.. i was 13-14.. so my hands were a lot smaller, im not confident itll be as good of a fit anymore to be honest... so im considering the 44 magnum super blackhawk with a 44 magnum lever

357 can kill anything on this continent out to 100 yards (though i probably wouldnt grizzley hunt with much smaller than a 45-70)... im basically looking for a lever action that could kill anything i feel like killing, my tastes in what i feel like hunting change a lot.. though im east coast now ill be moving west soon so i may see a lot of elk/moose action then...

im confident a 357 with a higher powered load, such as the buffalo bores but with a soft point bullet would be fine for bringing those down.. theres just a shadow of uncertainty right now

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:36 pm

357 is not a good choice for Elk or Moose.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:28 am

Old Savage wrote:357 is not a good choice for Elk or Moose.

Except those that drive those little cars and wear clown suits in parades!

.
.
.
Ok, that was just so wrong.

So why am I still chucklin'?

justin22885 · Post by **justin22885** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:01 pm

while im confident these hotter 357 loads would kill elk or moose, i think im going to go for the .44 for the unknown factor... to have something bigger in case i do get a charging moose or a grizzly while im hunting in other states.. would rather have a 44 to defend me

piller · Post by **piller** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:57 am

Whatever you choose, practice with it and become familiar and proficient enough to trust your skill and the guns reliability. Hope you have a lot of fun.