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I sold a rifle on another board not long ago. When the buyer went to pick it up, he found it was damaged in shipping.
I refunded his money but now he's telling me his shop won't ship it back without an FFL. The way I see it, it was never transferred to him therefore it's still mine and the shop should send it back just as a gunsmith would, right back to the owner.
Am I missing something here? As hacked as I am right now, it wouldn't surprise me...
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits.
-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
I've had that happen.
I "think" that even though it hasn't been transferred to the new owner it's still has to be recorded
as being in the dealer's possession as has to go back to another license holder.
Which one was it?
jb
jasonB " Another Dirty Yankee"
" Tomorrow the sun will rise. Who knows what the tide could bring?"
This is a rather simplified answer to you question but the law as I understand it generally says a gun may not be sent from a FFL holder to an individual -- only to another FFL holder. There are exceptions as in a repair facility to an individual but I think the guy is telling you the truth and not trying to phart you off. Too, that dealer the gun was shipped to may have already entered the gun in his books.
Sounds like the guy is willing to work with you as is his FFL guy.
nath, the general rule is you examine it before agreeing to have the xfer done.
2nd, it was the sporterized Swede. I haven't seen pics but he said the recevier sight was broken and there may be additional damage to that area of the receiver. Won't know until I get it back.
Modoc, I figure that's the case. What chaps me is that it's a $35 xfer fee on my end. Well, that and the fact it took him two weeks to finally get to his FFLs place and look at it after I confirmed it's delivery. OK, just those two things plus the convoluted nature of FFL regulations and the additional rules individual FFLs create as a CYA measure. Kind of like dealing with the Spanish Inquisition.
And NO ONE expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Other than that, life is just peachy...
Thanks all, I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and do it.
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits.
-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
As I understand it the receiving dealer has to enter it in his book when he receives it. That would mean the gun would have to ship back to a dealer and transferred back to you.
awp101 wrote:I sold a rifle on another board not long ago. When the buyer went to pick it up, he found it was damaged in shipping.
I refunded his money but now he's telling me his shop won't ship it back without an FFL. The way I see it, it was never transferred to him therefore it's still mine and the shop should send it back just as a gunsmith would, right back to the owner.
Am I missing something here? As hacked as I am right now, it wouldn't surprise me...
The FFL is uninformed and paranoid. This is a warranty issue. There was no transfer of ownership (4473/yellowsheet) so the FFL can send it directly back to you.
Yellowsheets are for transfers of ownership. That didn't happen here.
If it were different I would be out of business, never being able to send guns back to the owners.
Q: Is a licensed gunsmith’s return of repaired or customized firearms to their owners subject to the Brady law, including the provision for making background checks on transferees? No, but it is unlawful to transfer a firearm to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person is a felon or is within any other category of person prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms. (See also question “A firearm is delivered to a licensee by an unlicensed individual for the purpose of repair. Is the return of the repaired firearm subject to the requirements of the Brady law? Would the transfer of a replacement firearm from the licensee to the owner of the damaged firearm be subject to the requirements of the Brady law?”)
[18 U.S.C. 922(d), 27 CFR 478.32(d)]
It says gunsmith but you are an FFL first before you can say you are a gunsmith so it still applies.
Modoc ED wrote:This is a rather simplified answer to you question but the law as I understand it generally says a gun may not be sent from a FFL holder to an individual -- only to another FFL holder. There are exceptions as in a repair facility to an individual but I think the guy is telling you the truth and not trying to phart you off. Too, that dealer the gun was shipped to may have already entered the gun in his books.
Sounds like the guy is willing to work with you as is his FFL guy.
It's not about warranty or repair. It's about transfer of ownership. No transfer took place so the gun is still his. It can go directly back to him, no FFL needed.
Let say someone sent a gun to me to do some work on it then sell it for them. The gun gets here and is not repairable. Are you saying I now can't send it back to him because I didn't work on it? I still have to book it but I can send it back to him, no FFL needed on his end.
Nath, I don't think there's anything malicious going on (how's that for the 50 cent word of the day? ), just the extraneous leavings of a large farm animal that I'm in no mood to deal with right now.
Extraneous. Wow, that's 2 50 cent words of the day in the same post!
2ndovc wrote:Man!
I knew I should have bought that rifle!!!
Rats!!
Nath wrote:I smell a rat!
Well, perhaps that answers that...
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits.
-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
Modoc ED wrote:This is a rather simplified answer to you question but the law as I understand it generally says a gun may not be sent from a FFL holder to an individual -- only to another FFL holder. There are exceptions as in a repair facility to an individual but I think the guy is telling you the truth and not trying to phart you off. Too, that dealer the gun was shipped to may have already entered the gun in his books.
Sounds like the guy is willing to work with you as is his FFL guy.
It's not about warranty or repair. It's about transfer of ownership. No transfer took place so the gun is still his. It can go directly back to him, no FFL needed.
Let say someone sent a gun to me to do some work on it then sell it for them. The gun gets here and is not repairable. Are you saying I now can't send it back to him because I didn't work on it? I still have to book it but I can send it back to him, no FFL needed on his end.
No if you look at/read my post you will see that I said, "There are exceptions as in a repair facility to an individual .............."
There is a difference in an FFL for gunsmithing and an FFL for a gun store with no gunsmithing. In other words, different kinds of FFLs for different purposes Ever heard of a FFL for Curios and Relics?? I know you have of course -- just making a point.
"Firearms may not be mailed or shipped interstate from one non-FFL to another non-FFL. Personally owned rifles and shotguns may be mailed or shipped to an FFL in any state for any lawful purpose, including sale, repair, or customizing.
An FFL may ship a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received."
The way I see it, The seller was not responsible for the damage. If there is obvious damage to the shipping carton, the gun belongs to the buyer with the insurance paying the buyer.
1st. Gen. Colt SAA’s, 1878 D.A.45 and a 38-55 Marlin TD
Modoc ED wrote:This is a rather simplified answer to you question but the law as I understand it generally says a gun may not be sent from a FFL holder to an individual -- only to another FFL holder. There are exceptions as in a repair facility to an individual but I think the guy is telling you the truth and not trying to phart you off. Too, that dealer the gun was shipped to may have already entered the gun in his books.
Sounds like the guy is willing to work with you as is his FFL guy.
It's not about warranty or repair. It's about transfer of ownership. No transfer took place so the gun is still his. It can go directly back to him, no FFL needed.
Let say someone sent a gun to me to do some work on it then sell it for them. The gun gets here and is not repairable. Are you saying I now can't send it back to him because I didn't work on it? I still have to book it but I can send it back to him, no FFL needed on his end.
No if you look at/read my post you will see that I said, "There are exceptions as in a repair facility to an individual .............."
There is a difference in an FFL for gunsmithing and an FFL for a gun store with no gunsmithing. In other words, different kinds of FFLs for different purposes Ever heard of a FFL for Curios and Relics?? I know you have of course -- just making a point.
Well no, not really. In order to be a gunsmith you have to be an FFL first. ATF's does have a gunsmithing only license but the normal FFL rules still apply. The difference is if you have just the gunsmith license that basicslly means you don't buy and sell. In other words the gunsmith license is more restrictive than a normal 01-dealer FFL.
A C&R license doesn't even compare.
Ed, please understand, I'm not trying to make you look bad or anything like that. What I'm saying is I do this everyday, 99 percent of my business in Internet/mail-order. I've been audited several time each time with no infractions. I know what the rules are to do this.
I know when I consigned several firearms for sale at a local gun store I was told if they did not sale I would have to go through background checks and pay the same fees as required for a transfer of a new purchase in order to get them back. There seems to also be a lot places implementing their own policies. I sold a few firearms on GB last year and a couple of the FFLs would not make the transfers unless I sent a copy of my Drivers License. Just this week I tried to send two BLRs in for trigger work. UPS would not ship them without seeing a copy of the gunsmith's FFL. The agent said if it was a recognizable facility like Remington it would be okay. That seemed strange since none of the FFLs I sent the guns I sold late last year were recognizable and there was no request to show a copy of their FFLs. I called UPS and was told there is no requirement to show an FFL but the agent can refuse to ship them if you don't produce a copy upon their request.
jjames wrote:I know when I consigned several firearms for sale at a local gun store I was told if they did not sale I would have to go through background checks and pay the same fees as required for a transfer of a new purchase in order to get them back. There seems to also be a lot places implementing their own policies. I sold a few firearms on GB last year and a couple of the FFLs would not make the transfers unless I sent a copy of my Drivers License. Just this week I tried to send two BLRs in for trigger work. UPS would not ship them without seeing a copy of the gunsmith's FFL. The agent said if it was a recognizable facility like Remington it would be okay. That seemed strange since none of the FFLs I sent the guns I sold late last year were recognizable and there was no request to show a copy of their FFLs. I called UPS and was told there is no requirement to show an FFL but the agent can refuse to ship them if you don't produce a copy upon their request.
jjAMES,
That part is true. I do consignment sales, too. We can thank Clinton for that little change. Consignment sales are now considered to be tha same as pawn sales. Before this rule change if a gun was pawned and you paid it out there was no 4473. Since the clinton era that has all changed. I think that is why you don't see many decent guns in the pawn shops anymore. That's not the case with this gun. No sale ever took place.
NKJ, I was working in a pawn shop when that came down. Hated it then, hate it now.
mescalero, I'll keep you in mind. I wasn't happy with the sporter config and decided to sell it as I already had enough projects. When I found out it was coming back I started plotting and planning but I'll just have to see what shape it's all in when it gets back.
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits.
-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
Yeah i think he is right, according to regs once it has left your hands it needs an FFL to go back. Just as a matter of interest if you say leve a gun for repair and your wife picks it up she needs to do a 4473 to get it back. Right now with BATF flushing folks for typos on 4473's the dealers have to be pretty carefull.
KCSO wrote:Yeah i think he is right, according to regs once it has left your hands it needs an FFL to go back. Just as a matter of interest if you say leve a gun for repair and your wife picks it up she needs to do a 4473 to get it back. Right now with BATF flushing folks for typos on 4473's the dealers have to be pretty carefull.
This is what I was told by the agent who did my last check. Since they wanted to gig me for failing to stamp an address in one 4473 out of over 100 I wasn't going to argue.
