Ammo and how you use it...

[Hobie]

I've been noticing for several years now that many shooters buy "range" ammo and use specific ammo. Sometimes they call this "range" ammo, "blasting" ammo. There are variations on the theme but a good example is this glut of 130 gr. FMJ .38 Special stuff when most thinking people load their "carry" or "bedside" gun with some sort of +P hollowpoint.

For my own part, I tend to buy or, more likely, load ammo for "using" or practice the same. I don't have "range" ammo much less "blasting" ammo. I want all my ammo to be usable. I want my practice to be with the ammo I use (for hunting, self-defense, etc...). I do this becaue it hits to the same point of aim, because a problem with it will more likely become apparent the more it is shot, because I don't want to spend money on something that is only good for the range, because I don't want to have to sort through my ammo to find something useful when I need it right now.

I've tried to feel out the customers at the shop where I work. Most don't reload. They buy the high dollar stuff for hunting or self-defense but will "practice" with just about anything, price being the deciding factor even if the point of impact will vary widely from their "using" ammo.

I was wondering, do you subscribe to this "range" or "blasting" ammo approach or are you more like me?

[76/444]

No, not anymore. I did many decades ago, but have grown out of the blow up as much ammo and objects as possible in one setting. But I never used anything but what I depended on for defense and hunting, as you do.

[86er]

In preparation for a hunt I will shoot hundreds of rounds with one or two rifles that I will take with me. What I have worked out over the years is a "practice load" that hits the same point of impact and is the same weight and velocity. Now not all same weight-velocity bullets hit the same exact place due to other variables so this was a long arduous project. I am fortunate that my 308 shoots nearly all 165 gr bullets (at the same velocity) to the same point at 100 yds and beyond. I use 165 gr Rem Core Lokt for practice. Before hunting I will shoot a few 165 gr Nosler Partitions or Federal Fusions to reassure myself the p.o.i. and function are right. This definitely saves a lot of money.

In my 7mm Mag I have never shoot anything other than "hunting ammo", that is 160 gr Nosler Partion or Accubond, 150 gr Scirrocco or 175 gr Rem Core Lokt. The reason is simple: This gun groups exceptionally with those bullets (and I know the velocity they need to be). There is no point practicing with ammo that is not perfectly tuned because it makes it hard to determine just how I am doing compared to how I am doing with ammo errants factored in. I have never hunted with the 175 gr Core Lokt ammo but I tried some at the range out of curiosity and found out they hit the same exact spot at 100 yds as the 160's I normally shoot. I wouldn't practice with heavier ammo on purpose, but if someone gave me 175 gr RCL I'd shoot it at the range for practice.


The 30-30 Marlin is pretty easy going. Just about any 150 gr I would hunt with hits reasonably well at 100 yds. I don't shoot it that far anyway. I practice with whatever I loaded and hunt with it too.

Semi auto handguns are different. I have never fed my .40's anything but 165 gr Gold Dot and that includes 20,000 rounds in the Glock. I need to know they function flawlessly with what I carry and if a problem comes up I need to identify it immediately.

In revolvers I will plink with less expensive ammo but when practicing tactical stuff I shoot what I carry.

I never understood the guys that spend thousands on a hunt and buy cheap ammo, or get a great self protection gun and feed it ammo that will fail them when they need it most.

[meanc]

I do for the 9mm.

My HD/SD loads, don't differ enough in recoil from say WWB or Fed ball ammo.

I've practiced enough with the Federal 9bple and know it's POA/POI with my gun. Now, when I go to the range and shoot the bulk stuff, I don't ever adjust my grip, trigger pull, or manipulate the sight picture and treat it just like my carry load.


For everything else, my "range/practice" ammo is my regular ammo.

[adirondakjack]

I load for every centerfire I shoot.

"Practice" ammo is generally a lead bullet, often my own cast, sometimes bought, loaded to relatively close to my "serious social work" or hunting load.

An example would be from my pre-CAS days, when I shot oodles of 250s over 10 of Unique in .45 Colt RUGERS (it;s hotter than SAA or clones will wanna handle), and 21.5 of H110 over a 250 XTP for hunting.

In .380, a 93 grain lead bullet loaded almost as hot as my 90 gr XTP shot to the same POA, yet was a lot cheaper.....

[AJMD429]

I like the loads to be similar if possible, even if the bullets are of cheaper construction for the 'practice' rounds, and even if the 'blasting' ones might be loaded with less attention to accuracy (i.e. I may load a few .223's for my bolt gun using precision techniques, but would just use a progressive press for a Mini-14's loads). I like to have mostly one 'load' for any given cartridge (if I want different performance I'll likely use a different cartridge rather than try to work up so many different loads to keep track of), so even 'blasting' ammo would likely be reloaded with the same weight, albeit cheaper, projectile. Unfortunately, although cheap jacketeds seem to shoot pretty close to fancy ones for me, swapping in a lead 240 gr .44 Mag for a jacketed one hardly ever is close. Maybe it is the higher velocity (if same powder charge) and differently-inefficient blunt bullet shape.

If I buy ammunition rather than reload it, it is either because:

a) it is to be used for self-defense (legal issues more than 'reliability' ones - but both apply, to some extent, plus there are some excellent self-defense rounds out there I couldn't match anyway).

b) if the brass is good and the price is good, I (used to, before the price spike) consider buying loaded ammo kind of a way to get new brass and 'break it in' by firing a factory round out of it - I wouldn't care much at all what the load was, or if it would be similar to the reloaded one.

c) it is in a cartridge that many 'amateurs' I let come over and shoot may be using, and the price is good (again, I want good brass, usually). If someone just wants to see what it is like to fire a .38 special or .223 and hit a milk jug, it doesn't matter much what the load or bullet is, although the milder load is what I'll usually use for that purpose, if there is a 'range' of loads.

Sure glad I stocked up on reloading components last year, though! That, plus shifting most of our family/kid range sessions to .22 LR (which we'd stocked up on also) and being more frugal as far as how many rounds we shoot, has helped endure the ammo drought. I have friends who just 'got into shooting' and for the first time own a gun, but literally can't get ammunition AT ALL for it, or have to buy $1.75 a round stuff. NOT condusive to practicing alot or really enjoying the hobby when you hear the cash register noise louder than the muzzle blast. If it becomes a 'rich mans' hobby we're doomed.

For newbies, I tell them NOT to get some glitzy expensive gun that uses up their entire 'gun budget'. I tell them that if they don't have enough for two guns (centerfire and .22LR similar one) to get the .22LR first, unless they have an immediate self-defense need. If budget permits, I advise them to get an affordable, if 'plain' centerfire in the type of action they want, get a .22 LR in a similar style, buy 5,000 rounds of .22 LR, and for now, just a box or two of the centerfire round, and good hearing protectors, plus a .22 LR metal 'flip-up' target. After a couple thousand rounds of the .22 LR they'll be more comfortable handling guns, flinch less, and be ready to get the most out of those $1.00-a-pop centerfire rounds. The problem is, a centerfire gun plus the rimfire partner, and that much ammunition, will often run $800 or more ($300 CF gun, $200 RF gun, $200 RF ammo, $100 CF ammo), and that kind of shocks them. If they want to skimp on the ammo, that's ok, but I remind them it may not get any cheaper or easier to find, and has 'value' more than a gold coin in the event of a natural or man-made disaster. Besides, if they have a kid or two, each range session could use up 250 to 500 rounds, so that 5,000 round 'stockpile' will actually only last for 10-20 range sessions.

I really hate buying Berdan-primed stuff, partly because some of it turns out to be 'corrosive' even though it says not (not too much you can do about it if it is made in Kommiestan somewhere, so I guess they figure why NOT lie). Same for aluminum or steel cases of any kind. I will do it just to have a few 'emergency' rounds available, or for guns like the SKS or something I might take out to nail a coyote at night and not want to feel 'guilty' because I didn't go pick up all the brass.

[jnyork]

I cannot recall buying a factory centerfire cartridge in the last 50 years, everything I shoot has been reloaded by myself. I remembered why when I visited a Sportsmens Warehouse a few days ago, almost all their factory ammo was nearly a dollar a round and some was over $2.00 a round!

I dont load any "practice" ammo. Everything I shoot is loaded for the purpose, whether it is for metallic silhouette, PD's, elk, whatever.

I see guys out at the range just blasting through magazine after magazine of ammo, simply pointed it generally downrange and letting fly, content, it seems, to seeing dirt fly up somewhere downrange. Or, just shooting to see how fast they can fire without even trying to hit anything. Why?

Marksmanship seems to be a dying virtue.

[KirkD]

I usually develop one load for each of my calibers and that is what I both hunt with and practice with.

[madman4570]

I am like you Hobie! I use the same as to what I hunt or compete with.
I have my certain loads for Hunting with certain guns and I have my certain loads for doing the Military Comp. Shoots with certain guns .By doing this everything is constant.If I want to just pratice "a lot" and not waste ammo,thats what a dot on the wall and a dummy round in the gun is for. Granted, I once in a while might go shooting crazy with a brick of .22 ammo and my Ruger 10/22(with the 50rd mitchell mags) or even the H&R 999

[Malamute]

I have some things that I use "practice" ammo in. In 38-357's, I shoot more .38 spls, I simply severely dislike shooting .357 loads because of the muzzle blast. Shooting .22's for practice is the same concept. I shoot vastly more 22 than anything else. The trigger time is the main thing for me, individual guns have some particulars specific to them, but staying shooting is the main priority. Shooting rimfire regularly is good practice. Shooting centerfire isn't practical expense or time to load to get or maintain abilities like hitting airborn targets, and moving targets. Rimfire is also very good long range pistol practice, like 200-300 yards. One handed shooting can be brought up to snuff much simpler by shooting 500 rds of rimfire at a time rather than the time and expense of loading 500 centerfire anything. Same for left handed, and other fun, if odd practices, like shooting upside-down-handed (draw your right hand draw gun with the left hand, upside down and shooting DA quickly, pulling the trigger with the pinky finger). Not all "quantity" practice is wasteful, no precision practice. I think it's all worthwhile practice. I went shooting with a guy that had a pile of various guns he owned and some he had for sale. I was able to hit the 18" 300 yard plate with a couple of his glocks and other guns. One handed, in the first magazine.

I bought an older Ruger 77 in 308, simply because cheap ammo was available. I've never loaded a round of .308 so far. I couldnt even buy the components for what I could buy surplus for a couple years ago, even considering tossing the berdan primed brass. I've shot many hundreds (maybe 1500-or so?) of rounds thru that gun, mostly offhand, mostly at 300 and 600 yards, with plinking much farther out. I have 3 boxes of factory soft point 150's I bought for $5 each from a chain store that changed brands once, and don't think I've shot any of them yet. When I carry (not "hunt" with) this gun, I keep it loaded with the soft point 150's, for practice, I shoot the surplus.

In heavy 45 Colt or 44 mag loads, I don't think I've shot more than a box or two of heavy loads in either in over 10 years (maybe 15?), but like shooting them with medium velocity loads. I shoot a cylinder full of heavy loads every now and then to confirm POI, but otherwise don't shoot the heavy loads any more.

[COSteve]

I reload all my rounds in a given bullet weight the same, be they for practice or 'real' use because if 'practice makes perfect,' then practicing with the same loads that I'll use for real gives me the same muzzle blast and recoil as well as the same POI. That's why I don't see the use in practicing with say an AR or large caliber handgun and using a 22lr insert because the weight, balance, recoil, muzzle blast, and POI are different.

[TedH]

It depends on the gun. In my AR I will go to the practice range with reloads of bulk FMJ bullets and thrown powder charges. I have the rifle zero'd with more expensive soft points and weighed powder charges. If I'm just out to practice I will use whatever I have that is cheapest and save the good stuff for hunting/defense as long as they all shoot to the same poi.

[Blaine]

I guess I'm not that picky. When I shoot the rifles, though, I tend to use the load I'll prolly be hunting with. Those bulk 130 grain flat nosed 38 specials are more effective than you might think...that flat meplat does it's job. I think, but can't be sure, that that bullet was a milltary bullet for the special at one time.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I used to buy range ammo for pistols when going to the indoor range, but that Winchester range ammo that they carry was always very dirty and would turn my hands green. I had to spend extra time cleaning handguns after each session because it seemed to get everywhere. Today, I shoot what I intend to load or carry in pistols.

In rifles, I buy and shoot what I intend to use as well. I'd hate to have to deal with a point of aim issue because I practiced with one round and hunted with another. Now in the AR ... I'm mostly shooting Lake City surplus M855. But I'm not hunting with those guns ... just popping cans and paper, etc. I'm still working through my '94 AWB purchase of M855 and probably will be for years to come.

[rimrock]

I pick a load for each caliber, and that's all I use for that caliber. Those loads tend to be big and high end of moderate.

[jhrosier]

I agree with you Hobie. Using "Range ammo" to save mmoney is false economy, at best.
I have noticed that the non-handloaders who use cheap ammo often complain bitterly about the quality and availability of it.

Jack

[rjohns94]

Most of "range" ammo falls into a couple of categories.
.22lr - I shoot bulk at the range but I always finish off with hunting ammo. I know where my firearms hit with it. even on .22, I'm always interested in saving money when I put alot of ammo down range.

.357/38 - I down load my .357 ammo a bit and plink and shoot to my hearts content. Again, I finish any range time with my PD/hunting loads going down range.

.45-70 - I only load for hunting loads - at the range, I will only put 10 or so shots down range assuming I'm shooting well, just for verification of my weapon holding its zero.

30-30 - factory ammo. I just don't use the cartridge that much. Just sent my only rifle in this caliber (1893 Marlin trapper, circa 1920) out to NKJ for an action job.

12 and 20 gauge - I don't reload for these, I use target ammo for targets, and factory hunting ammo for duty.

.54 Cal Flintlock - I have a reduced load and hunting load. Both shoot point of aim at 50 yards. I "plink" with 55 grains and hunt with a double charge of that, 110grains. I use my own .530 cast balls for both.

.44special - factory loads only, I don't shoot it that much. If I did, it would be basic loads for plinking and self defense. Same power level, but I use silvertip ammo for self defense in this caliber.

.475 Linebaugh - I down load to 1000 fps for the 400 grain bullet for the range. I shoot full power loads (hunting loads at 1320fps) at the end of fun time.

9mm - factory loads, ball ammo. I have already shot defense loads in all my mags to ensure proper feed. I don't reload this caliber and don't shoot it much, but I do carry my sig 226 combat stoked with 20 rounds of gold dot ammo.

9.3 x 74 - factory ammo currently for all shooting, though I'm expecting some reloading stuff in the mail and I will be looking to duplicate factory ammo to maintain regulation of my double rifle.

In all, my practice loads are with same weight bullets as defense or hunting loads, but generally cast bullets, either bought by bulk or cast myself. The higher cost hunting bullets are saved generally for that purpose.

[pokey]

but if someone gave me 175 gr RCL I'd shoot it at the range for practice.

well heck yeah

[pokey]

I guess I'm not that picky. When I shoot the rifles, though, I tend to use the load I'll prolly be hunting with. Those bulk 130 grain flat nosed 38 specials are more effective than you might think...that flat meplat does it's job. I think, but can't be sure, that that bullet was a milltary bullet for the special at one time.

+1

[Malamute]

"I reload all my rounds in a given bullet weight the same, be they for practice or 'real' use because if 'practice makes perfect,' then practicing with the same loads that I'll use for real gives me the same muzzle blast and recoil as well as the same POI. That's why I don't see the use in practicing with say an AR or large caliber handgun and using a 22lr insert because the weight, balance, recoil, muzzle blast, and POI are different."


I don't think that the difference between rimfire and centerfire matters all that much as far as practice goes. I feel the practice (any practice) far outweighs the different recoil etc. Back when I messed with 1911's, I had been buying bullets by the 1000 lot and shot them a fair bit, but if I laid off carrying and shooting them for a couple months, I couldnt shoot them nearly as well until I shot a couple hundred rounds through it. If I put on the .22 Ace kit and shot a brick of .22 through it, I seemed to be right back in tune with the gun. I think all trigger time is good, so long as you aren't just out making noise like some seem to.

[Modoc ED]

I either buy or handload what I hunt with and use it for everything.

[Hobie]

I noticed but didn't mention, sorry, that "range" ammo does have different connotations to some. I'm not talking only about ammo issued by indoor ranges, rather that ammo people feel is suited only to a range. In some cases this is the same, but not always.

[Tycer]

Yes.

I shoot handloaded target wadcutters under light powder charges 99% of the time without regard to where they hit on the target. (38-357) I buy self-defense loads that print where I point. I shoot the self defense loads every month.

In 9mm and 380 ACP I do the same with cast RN for practice. The 380 happen to print the same as the self defense loads I shoot every month.

Trigger control and reloading the weapon can only be learned by repetition and the most frugal way is with less expensive ammo.

IMO, consistency of sight/target picture is very important as is knowing that your self defense ammo prints where you point. Practice ammo does not have to print where you point, but follow up shots and later groups all need to group well. i.e. my 9mm practice ammo prints 8 o'clock 7 ring at ten yards and my Federal 9BPLE self defense ammo prints X in my XDm.

I recommend that at least one box of self defense ammo be included in the monthly shooting regimine.

[jdad]

I can only relate to rimfire ammo.

I never use Remington rimfire ammo. Too inconsistent, too dirty, and too many FTF. I prefer CCI ammo, for general fun, but Federal 510 & American Eagles is nearly as good. If it's a match rifle or an old Marlin that can only handle standard velocity, then it's Wolf MT/SK Standard+.

[OI phones in...]

Ballistic equivelance.

I load hand-cast 358156 to shoot identically to LSWCHP+P, and that IS my "range-ammo".

If I'm shooting factory/specialized and don't have an equivelant worked up, I will practice with factory/specialized.

Only thing I shoot "cheap" ammo for is reloadable brass ... not for accuracy/practice/"real".

[El Chivo]

Before I started reloading, the idea was to find the right brand for each caliber and stick with that. These were factory loads, full power, the most accurate brand. My shooting was hunting/defense and practice for hunting/defense.

Now I do other types of shooting, I take weekly trigger time at the local indoor range, and I shoot silhouette, in addition to hunting. So now I think more about tailoring my loads to each purpose. I shoot low power loads at the indoor range, and want cast bullet velocities at the silhouette range.

I also realized that most of my shooting is not of a critical nature. So I've been dipping, rather than weighing, my low power loads. I'll take a slightly lower score rather than spend the extra time weighing. This may qualify for the concept of "range ammo" - less accurate, for a less critical purpose, to save cost (time in my case). I'm still going to weigh loads that are for a critical purpose or near the max.

So I guess the answer is, in tailoring my loads for each purpose, I'm also factoring in the importance of accuracy for that load. But the idea is still to find a consistent load for each use, even if the consistency is + or - a few percent.

[Steve Collins]

I try as hard as possible to subscribe to the 'one load, one gun' concept. I use medium to heavy loads in the .357 and .44, but my most used load in the .38 is 5grs of Unique and a 158gr Laser Cast SWC. Seems to work well in my j-frames and my 2" model 12.

I reload practice 9mm, since I shoot IDPA and I'm teaching a class almost every weekend. My Glocks are sighted in for Speer Gold Dot +P 124gr JHP, and I usually run a magazine of it through my carry gun once a month.

My model 94 30-30 shoots Remington 170gr Core Lokt so well, I don't bother to shoot anything else through it.

I go through A LOT of .22 ammo! Trigger time is the most important thing, save the big stuff for defense, hunting and the occasional re-familiarization.

[awp101]

For some of my stuff, practice/range/SD ammo are one and the same. When was the last time you saw domestically produced 5.45x39? I haven't and when the surplus coming in was SUPER dirt cheap, it was my blasting ammo and would have been my go-to if it had come to that. Now I try to shoot the AK just enough to keep a level of profeciency whereas before I wouldn't think of dumping 300-500 rounds in a day with no purpose other than just having fun.

I was given a playmate cooler about half full of junk .22LR that goes with me almost every range trip (it USED to be full! ). I use it to warm up and just get trigger time since most any trigger time is good time IMO. If I'm going to shoot for groups in one of the informal board matches, I switch to the good stuff. Otherwise, it's good for plinking without the wallet crying. Or like today, popping 7 mags through the Buckmark pistol just to relieve stress.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Almost all of my ammo is RANGE AMMO. Just like my uncle said, "Buy a box of .30-30`s and you are good for deer for 20 years". (when he bought a box of shells he was buying 20 deer)

[BigSky56]

I use 1 load for my rifles and 2 loads for my pistols regular and a grizzly defense load plus I'll load a shot capsule with #9's for packrats and fools hens. danny

[RIHMFIRE]

I reload...so no range ammo for me...
except for 22....

[alnitak]

Yes.

In 9mm and 380 ACP I do the same with cast RN for practice. The 380 happen to print the same as the self defense loads I shoot every month.

Trigger control and reloading the weapon can only be learned by repetition and the most frugal way is with less expensive ammo.

IMO, consistency of sight/target picture is very important as is knowing that your self defense ammo prints where you point. Practice ammo does not have to print where you point, but follow up shots and later groups all need to group well. i.e. my 9mm practice ammo prints 8 o'clock 7 ring at ten yards and my Federal 9BPLE self defense ammo prints X in my XDm.

I recommend that at least one box of self defense ammo be included in the monthly shooting regimine.

+1

I use cast reloads, at approximately the same power as factory for my range ammo. Sometimes for my 9mm I will use Remington UMC, AE or WWB as range ammo if I can get a deal on it in bulk. Between the reloads and cheap ball ammo, most of my range time is with that. I always finish with a mag or two of my SD round to "normalize" back to carry mode. Frankly, I haven't noticed all that much difference in POI between the cheaper 9mm ammo and my SD rounds. The one exception is using +P vs. standard velocity ammo. But as I said, I always end a range session with a mag or two of SD stuff.

For the .45-70 I use cast reloads that could also serve as hunting rounds. However, I generally use Garret ammo for that purpose, and just touch off a shot or two to reconfirm POI prior to hunting. For my .44 mag and .357, I do load specials (or download the mag cases) for plinking and fun shooting, but then also have full powered reload rounds that are used in preparation for factory ammo. I don't really notice much difference in POI between the various practice loads and factory ammo at the distances I shoot.

I haven't yet reloaded for necked cases, so use factory ammo for the .30-30 and .223, though I will use the cheaper stuff (like steel cased Wolf) for the range and the more expensive stuff for actual hunting or SD (again, once I verify POI).

BTW, I don't change my sights on the handguns for the plinking loads. I keep them zeroed in on the SD/hnting loads, and just adjust the POA during range session with plinking ammo.

[JReed]

For my hunting rifles (same goes for my CAS guns) I build the most accurate hunting load I can and that is what I use all the time. It can be pricey but like Hobie I never have to worry about grabbing the right ammo and I never have to reset my sights for a different load. Now for my pinking guns I find what is inexpensive but fairly accurate and shoot the heck out of it and then reload the brass.

[wm]

Sort of......two examples

I handload 38 special ammo for carry and practice. I use inexpensive 158gr LSWC cast bullets from a local commercial caster for practice and self defense I use his slightly more expensive 158 gr LSWC HP for serious work (self defense & hunting)

With my 45 ACP I use 230 gr hardball over 5.5 grains of win 231 for practice, and the same charge with 230 grain JHP for serious work.

I guess you could say I straddle the fence on this subject.

Wm

[stew71]

For the .45, yes, I use that cheapo aluminum cased CCI stuff for practice and keep the Speer "flying ashtrays" for the HD thing. As far as hunting rifles go, I verify the zero with the same stuff I hunt with. I might play a bit and "burn" some if I have enough on hand. The exception would be the pricey lead-free Barnes-tipped Federal loads I reserve for hunting down south in the condor zones. That stuff is too expensive to "play with".

For the CMP matches where we punch paper, my Garand, '03 Springfield, and M1A are plenty accurate with surplus FMJ, but when it comes to the metallic silhouettes, I have to switch to handloaded HPBTs so that it doesn't destroy the targets. Then again, when it comes to using the Swede or K31, I almost have to use only handloaded stuff since the factory loads are just astronomical in price.

[awp101]

Then again, when it comes to using the Swede or K31, I almost have to use only handloaded stuff since the factory loads are just astronomical in price.

stew, I'd be interested in more info about the loads for the Swede and K31 since I want to start loading for them. A PM is fine if you don't want it public.

[stew71]

awp...I dont mind sharing at all. Of course your mileage and options may vary...blah blah blah...

6.5x55SE

Winchester brass TTL - 2.155"
Fed 210 primer
43.7gr Reloder22
140gr Sierra MatchKing w/COAL = 3.052"

Originally, my best accuracy was using Varget. But it wasn't producing enough velocity to reliably knock down the rams at 500m. I lost several points because of that!! Switching to RE-22 solved that issue quite easily. In the future, I may play around with the Berger VLDs for this baby.

7.5x55 Swiss

Graf brass TTL - 2.170"
Winchester LR primer
43.9gr IMR 4064
168gr Sierra MatchKing w/COAL = 2.923"

I use the Redding die set specifically designed for the K31 chamber. It doesn't set back the shoulder as much as some other 7.5 Swiss die sets.

Good luck!!