Sharps 1874 - Pressure

[haterock 2]

I am now the lucky owner of a Sharps 1874 ( Italian made ) cal. 45/70. The plan is, later on, to use it for black powder shooting, but for for now it will have to be smokeless. The reloading data from various powder companys all shows loads around 30.000 psi. ( except for trapdoor loads around 17.000 ). Will these loads be safe safe in a modern Sharps? What are Your favourire lods with a 300 grains bullet cast/jacketed ?

Regards

[Old Time Hunter]

First I wouldn't shoot jacketed out of her. Probably would not hurt it an all but.... Second, I would load it as close to Trapdoor pressures as possible since that is what your Black Powder loads will be anyways. Good all around load is a 405 grain Lead projectile with around 29.5 grains of H4198 in the case. Should be good for 1250-1300 fps...plenty fast.

[Don McDowell]

Those rifles are proofed for blackpowder (trapdoor) pressures, stick with that. Some of the more aggressive trapdoor loads such as shown in the Lyman 49 manual will make your shoulder surrender after the second shot anyways.
Depending on who made your rifle, the twist is likely to fast to make good use of 300 gr bullets. 405 and up will give you your best accuracy, and that's the bullet weights and speeds that made the old cartridge famous, and for good reason.

[Wind]

Hey there haterock 2 - Here is some information that may be of some help. Best regards. Wind

*Click on the photos to enlarge*

[CowboyTutt]

"The Don" is pretty "Sharp" on this stuff.

I'd go with what he said.

-Tutt

[Don McDowell]

Tutt thankyou for the kind word

How was your Dixon affair this year.

[CowboyTutt]

Don, it was awesome. I've started the article and just need to finish it and send it to Mic McPherson for his portion. It was hard work trying to get the history of the FoBD correct and involved many phone calls, then Mic sort of sent me back to review Bill Falin's upcoming book on long range trajectory's of BP cartridges to be sure I have the history correct. Takes some effort to sort all this stuff out. Writing about the event itself is easy by comparison, but writing the "defininitive history" of the FoBD Ultra Long Range Facility takes some doing. I'm hoping to "knuckle down" and finish my portion this weekend and send it to Mic. After that, it will go to Gunblast.com for publication.

Were hoping to make next years FoBD event the biggest one yet. Would love to see ya there and will give PLENTY of notice to everyone at Leverguns.

-Tutt

[Mitch1352]

I have a Shiloh in 45-70. A call to the factory said that I could use low end Ruger #1 loads, since they use the same receiver for the 50-110's etc. Not wanting or needing that much spank, I shoot loads towards the top end of the Trapdoor listings (I also have an H+R Officer's Model carbine) and somewhat into the Marlin pages. I use smokeless, so this may not apply for you if you are using blackpowder. Let me know if you start using smokeless. I am always looking for better handloads.

[KirkD]

If you want a little more steam for your Sharps, take a look at Ken Waters' Pet Loads. He has quite a few in there for original Trapdoor rifles that have more power than I have the courage to use in my original. If they are fine for an original Trapdoor, they will be plenty fine for a modern Sharps repro.

[Doc Hudson]

I pretty well agreee with Don McDowell's comments as well, with one minor exception.

I like the heavier bullets. I've never used a bullet lighter than 405 grains in a .45-70 and have a great preference for 510 grain cast bullets.

On those rare occasions I loaded smokeless powder loads for my .45-70's, I like Oldtime Hunter like IMR 4198 best, but I had a tendency to load heavy for use in a Marlin M-1895 G. I won't quote the load, but I was getting an average velocity of about 2060 fps with a 405 grain cast bullet. From a 6.75 pound (3.06 kg) rifle, that load killed on one end and crippled on the other.

i suggest that you do not take the information Mitch shared as gospel for your rifle. Shiloh Sharps Rifles and Italian Sharps are not built to the same specifications or standards of perfection. Mitch's Shiloh is a semi-custom rifle hand built by outstanding craftsmen while the Italian rifle is a mass produced rifle made by union labor. While according to the info Mitch received his rifle is perfectly safe at higher pressures, yours might not be as safe.

i am not belittling the Italian rifle, just plainly stating that it is not in the same league with the Shiloh. A comparison might be to consider the Shiloh as a World Cup-winning Soccer Team compared to a Championship-winning High School Soccer Team. Both are outstanding in their leagues, but they are entirely different leagues.

I really believe that you will be better served and safer by sticking to or at least near the Trapdoor pressure levels.

In the FWIW Department, my favorite .45-70 load is 65 grains FFg blackpowder (I like Elephant Brand and Royal Scott), CCI Magnum Large Rifle Primer, and a hard cast 510 grain FP-semi-Spitzer (cast from wheel-weights in an RCBS Mold), lubed with Jon Erdmann's Montana Gold Lube, with a cardboard over-powder wad between powder and bullet.

BTW, lest I sounded like I'm a snob about Italian firearms, let me state clearly, I love Pedersoli and Uberti-made firearms. And furthermore, I'd love to have a Pedersoli-made Sharps and another Rolling Block!

[Bullard4075]

Doc said :" I suggest that you do not take the information Mitch shared as gospel for your rifle. Shiloh Sharps Rifles and Italian Sharps are not built to the same specifications or standards of perfection. Mitch's Shiloh is a semi-custom rifle hand built by outstanding craftsmen while the Italian rifle is a mass produced rifle made by union labor. While according to the info Mitch received his rifle is perfectly safe at higher pressures, yours might not be as safe.

I am not belittling the Italian rifle, just plainly stating that it is not in the same league with the Shiloh. A comparison might be to consider the Shiloh as a World Cup-winning Soccer Team compared to a Championship-winning High School Soccer Team. Both are outstanding in their leagues, but they are entirely different leagues."

Read the above two or three times.

Living near the Shiloh company and being there numerous times I can tell you that Doc is spot on. That said , hotrodding your rifle is not the way to enjoy
a Sharps of any make. I've been told what the SHILOH Sharps rifles are proofed at and while I won't repeat it here I know you have little to worry about
with any sensable load below the Lyman Ruger #1 data. Recoil will stop you before you enter red territory.

[haterock 2]

Thank You for all the answers so far. I must admit that I am still a little confused, but am I right in the following conclusions:

1. A Sharps is a stronger construction than a Trapdoor.

2. Allthough not the fit and finish of a Shiloh, an Italian Sharps is made of better steel than the original.

3. A modern Italian made Sharps will take some more pressure than an original Trapdoor.

Regards

[JerryB]

I ain't got a horse in this race but it sounds to me like you got the meat of this talk pretty well.

[kimwcook]

I ain't got a horse in this race but it sounds to me like you got the meat of this talk pretty well.

I agree. And I do love my Shiloh.

[CowboyTutt]

I have to be the "odd man out" here and say that I have heard VERY disheartening things about the owners of Shiloh Sharps and their customer service from people in the firearms industry. I also had a god awefull experience on their forum with their customers a while back. I was not assisted by the moderators on the forum in any way. I was told that the owners of Shiloh are not in the "internet forum" buisiness and they are in the buisines of selling guns, thus they do not monitor their forum. But in addition to that, I also met the owner of Shiloh at a SHOT SHOW 2 years ago, and some red flags were raised for me even then. I will have nothing to do with Shiloh. Period. I was very impressed with the character of David Pedersoli, and the good things I heard about him from other companies that import his firearms. Take it for what you will, but this is what I have heard. C Sharps seems to be a very fine company meanwhile and comes highly recommended to me.

-Tutt

[kimwcook]

Wow, Cowboy, that begs for a "I need more."

[Don McDowell]

Tutt if I can get to your next Dixon, I'll bring some extra rounds so you can have some quality time with my CSA 75

[CowboyTutt]

I'd like that a lot Don! Hopefully we can get more people there for the next event. -Tutt