Realistic maximum distance for .30-.30 on deer?

[Triggernosis]

What do you say?

[dr walker]

Everyone has a different maximum hunting range. With my scoped .30-30 I would shoot out to around 200 yards with no worries. I would not be that confident with open sights, but I have seen others make long shots with open sights.

[Gary]

FWIW - Hornady's published ballistics tables for their 30-30 LeverEvolution ammo says it is good for 300 yards.

[jlchucker]

The crux of this subject is how good of a hunter you are, and how well you can place a killing shot with your 30-30. The important part here, IMO, is not the cartridge and its ballistics, but the capabilities and sportsmanship of the hunter/shooter.

[rjohns94]

Shooter dependent. I know its good enough on deer out to where I might use it for hunting. Saw Tony Maklas shoot a buffalo bull in the neck at 120 yards with an old 30-30, dropped it right there. Mine is not scoped, (neither was his) but I feel comfortable with open sights out to over 100 yards. I hunt in Penn's Woods mostly and shots there are often under 30 yards, sometimes measured in feet. that is where the cartridge excels in fast handling carbines.

[Buffboy]

I made a 1 shot kill on a deer last year with my open sighted 38-55 at 200yards. I wasn't hesitant about that shot, I knew my rifle and where it shot at that range. I've shot deer at 200+ yards with the 30-30 and witnessed 300+ yard one shot kills lots of times over the years with 94 carbines with stock sights.

Learn the gun, where it hits at various ranges with open sights or scope, and the cartridge will do just fine. Practice range estimation, as it matters more on any long shot, be it 30-30 or 270 than the cartridge.

[J Miller]

In times past people couldn't afford many guns. They bought one and lived with it. Got to know it and it's capabilities. That allowed them to become proficient with it. Most people didn't use scopes either.

Now we live in a time where most people can buy many many guns. But there isn't a reason to really live with them. They never become proficient with them.
Scopes are commonplace now, and in my opinion are a crutch to compensate for practice and skill. ( Scope lovers, flame me all you want but that's my opinion.)

If you want to know how far your 30-30 can take game, then use it. Put the others away and get to know your rifle. I've seen it posted that the max hunting range for your rifle is as far as you can consistently put your rounds in an 8" paper plate from field positions, not the bench. If that's 50 yards then that's it. If it's a 102 yards then that's it.


JMHO

Joe

[86er]

The two factors most important are the capability of the shooter and the compliment of equipment. Dealing with the first, the shooter must be a good marksman and carry out all the steps of good marksmanship to shoot at longer ranges confidently and consistently. Second, the equipment must be able to compliment the shooters ability. If the shooter can't see the sights past a certain range the rifle should not be asked to send a bullet that far. If a scope is used, the range may be extended because the ability is complimented by a good, certain and steady sight picture. The further the shot the better the trigger needs to be. A great shooter cannot keep a tight group of bullets with a horrible trigger. Lastly, the bullet. The bullet needs enough weight, velocity and engergy to get where it is going and then inflict terminal damage. If the bullet by design expands between 1800 fps and 2400 fps and the impact velocity is 1500 fps, the bullet will not expand and this will effect the lethality of the shot - and should effect the shooters ethics in deciding whether or not to take it. My own personal criteria for determining maximum range, after my own ability, factors in the ballistics. Is the bullet designed to expand at the impact velocity for the range; is the sectional density .270 or better (for straight line penetration, especially when a bullet slows down significantly); is the energy over 1000 ft/lbs (small whitetail deer sized game). Next factor is the positioning of the animal. Is the shot unobstructed (even a small twig); what is the wind direction and speed); how is the animal standing (shot placement and terminal bullet path); is the gun pretty steady or rock solid steady; is the shot up or down hill; where is the closest cover the animal might run to; where is the property line? Am I sure - of all of this.

With this extensive criteria with a slight sprinkle of overthought the following would work for me:

160 grain LE bullet= 2400 fps MV = 1025 ME and 12.5" drop at 300 yards. That's the maximum shot with that cartridge and everything else just right.

150 grain RN bullet = 2390 fps MV = 1276 ME and 29.5" drop at 300 yards. The drop is too much to control at 300 yards. At 225 it is 12.5" low. I can deal with that. 225 yards for this cartridge.

170 grain FP bullet = 2200 fps MV = 1186 ME and 36" drop at 300 yards. The drop is too much to control at 300 yards. At 200 yards it is 10.5" drop. That's reasonable to compensate for. Maximum range with this cartridge is 200 yards.

I have seen one honest 300 yard shot on a Texas whitetail with a 20" barrel rifle shooting LeverEvolution with a graduated scope and shot from a tower blind. The rifle was motionless and the scope has a 300 yard line - so no hold over was necessary. I think the velocity was short of advertised because of the 4" less barrel on this gun, so say around 120 fps loss leaving 2280 fps. There was no wind at the blind but on the hill there was probably 10-15 mph crosswind. An intended shoulder shot hit 9 inches to the right (wind direction) hitting just rear of center in the rib cage. The deer went over the hill. We found it one hour later and it was barely alive and could not move. A finishing shot took care of that. The bullet lost the red elastopolymer tip an bent to the side with the jacket staying intact to the core - little expansion. It penetrated somewhere around 7 inches and luckily, it cut the lung sack on the rearmost portion on both lungs.

This is considered a premium bullet, extra long range cartridge (for the caliber) and advertised to stretch your rifle/cartridge ability into the next millenium. Okay - it killed a deer with one shot at 300 yards. However, the performance of the bullet was not up to my expectations and I would personally limit this combo to 250 yards. So if that is the high-tech long range rocket for this caliber, how can you justify a shot as long as or longer than 300 yards with a different bullet - MV, SD? I'm sure it could be done but I don't think it is ethical.

[Triggernosis]

Thanks for the responses, guys.
I shoot High Power Service Rifle competitions and am working towards my Dist. Rifleman badge, so the comments about good marksmanship really hit home.

[Don McDowell]

Shooter dependant +1.
The 30-30 is lethal along ways out, but it's only lethal as far out as the yanker of the trigger can place the bullet into a vital spot.

[Streetstar]

For me, its about 100 yards open sights and 150 with a scope --- i agree with 86er's reply 100% on a 300 yard max theoretically too.

Difference is, 86er is a pro and his effective range is probably at least 75 to 100 yards more than mine with any rifle.

But due to trajectory drop -- i dont feel comfortable with shots over 150 unless it is at a metal gong

I will stalk closer or wait for the next one ---- but much as i love leverguns, if i am hunting in territory where i think a long shot may be a realistic consideration, i am usually carrying a bolt gun with an optic (putting on my flame proof jacket now)

[leveractionjunkie]

I also believe it's shooter dependent. Some guys practice lots and lots with the same rifle others shoot a few rounds here and there from the bench and then head to the bush.

[Don McDowell]

I guess I always get a good case of the grins when the xpurts start spouting foot pounds energy and bullet drop.
1000 fpe is always the criteria they set for a rifle, Yet hand them a 357,41 or a 44 and they'll go after the brontosarousus, yet neither one of those cartridges from a handgun will get a 1000 fpe at the muzzle with any load within the realm of sanity. The lowly 30-30 whethe loaded with 150's or 170's will still beat the handgun muzzle fpe at 250 yds.
Then we always get to hear about the expansion range of a jacketed bullet, yet the same folks preaching this stuff won't hesitate a heart beat to tear out into the game fields with a hard cast bullet that won't expand if you squeezed it in a hydraulic press, let alone fire it out of a gun barrel.
Every potential shooter/hunter needs to know his/her limitations with the chosen weapon.
J Millers words about the far distance you can hold all your shots from field position into an 8 inch paper plate is very good, And I've had the encounters with highdollar hunters with all the latest equipment and whizbang rifles couldn't hold that 8 inch from a rest at 200, never mind from a field position.
We can all sit here and pontificate about how far this and which bullet that, but it all boils down to getting out in the field and gathering the experience to know what will work well what might be questionable.

[L_Kilkenny]

With this extensive criteria with a slight sprinkle of overthought the following would work for me:

160 grain LE bullet= 2400 fps MV = 1025 ME and 12.5" drop at 300 yards. That's the maximum shot with that cartridge and everything else just right.

150 grain RN bullet = 2390 fps MV = 1276 ME and 29.5" drop at 300 yards. The drop is too much to control at 300 yards. At 225 it is 12.5" low. I can deal with that. 225 yards for this cartridge.

170 grain FP bullet = 2200 fps MV = 1186 ME and 36" drop at 300 yards. The drop is too much to control at 300 yards. At 200 yards it is 10.5" drop. That's reasonable to compensate for. Maximum range with this cartridge is 200 yards.

Glad you limited that to yourself. But it's far from the limits of the 30/30. Like Don said, the old standard for a rifle with proper bullets was a 1000ft/lbs. But many states have set the handgun limits at 500ft/lbs at 100 yards. Some don't even go that far and just set caliber restrictions. I've seen what a 180gr .357 moving at around 1200fps will do to a deer and feel it's plenty of gun. I'll be honest and say that I have no idea what the energy is of that round.

All that being said I'm of the belief that the accuracy of the rifle/ammo combo and the shooter will run out long before the effective range. I always sight in for Maximum Point Blank Range. Using 86er's numbers above the MPBR for a 6" target is as follows.
160gr LE = 235 yards, 200 yard zero
150gr RN = 220 yards, 190 yard zero
170gr RN = 215 yards, 175 yard zero
Again, the is MPBR without having to compensate in the least for drop. All calculated with a scope 1.5" above bore. This how I sight in.

That being a said, I've never had a problem taking shots that MPBR said I shouldn't. 400+yard running coyotes, 125 yard slug gun deer, etc. The main problem is it keeps working. One of these days I'll take one of those shots and wish I hadn't. But I understand and study bullet drop in my guns. Even go as far as to tape a brown paper to my stock with the info and confirm my info thru shooting. I study lead at different ranges too. Would I hesitate to take a 300 yard shot at a deer with the 30/30? Not if I thought the gun/ammo combo was up to it. Personally, I don't think my current one is.

[madman4570]

For me with the Marlin 336 but its a .35 Rem(100yards)thats enough.
Though its open sighted and only used as a woods gun!

[Old Time Hunter]

Darn, I always thought Teddy Roosevelt was an honest guy! Didn't he claim that the Winchester Model 94 chambered for .30-30 was the flattest shooting, farthest hitting rifle ever made? Did he not claim to take Pronghorn at 600 yards or farther (still looking for support data)?

Well boys, I think that I can substantiate that the .30-30 on Whitetails can take 'em down from a pretty far distance. As long as the shooter doesn't know better. For instance: Last December I took one of my clients on the special "antlerless" season. He was a FIB, so didn't know any better, but standing on a ridge over looking a cut down swamp that encompasses about 60 full acres but across the ridges around 600 to 800 yards, we glassed a doe walk'n just down from the ridge across left to right. My range finder didn't stretch far enough. Vic asked if he could take a shot, I told him probably not as he couldn't hit any way. He asked, "but if I could where would you aim?" I said "about half way up the trunk of that oak tree just behind her". Without hesitation, off hand, he shouldered his .30-30 Marlin (had an expensive 3X9 Tasco scope on it too!) and squeezed off a round. What seemed like five seconds(1/2 second?) the doe went butt over tea kettle and slid down the hill! After an hour of trudging around the cut downs, we walked up on a good size Doe with a hole clear thru her head! Vic says he was aim'n directly above the shoulder, but there must've been some windage, that 173 grain lead flat nose with gas check and 31 grains of H4895 did the job! I figure the bullet dropped 'bout five feet and traveled a good 650 yards......Vic is still a FIB, but still darn lucky too! Oh yea, and he has the pictures to prove it. Named the Doe Rudy of all things!

[JerryB]

A good many years ago I killed a big groundhog with my 94 30wcf 20 inch carbine. That one has a Marble's tang sight on it. The groundhog was 220 yards, I shot from a rest with a jacket rolled up. Today I would be lucky to see one at that distance. I shoot closer now.

[madman4570]

Ya,with those ground hogs and those slow moving bullets(I usually shoot em with a 22-250)unless you head shoot em good luck!
About 10 years ago at the gun club one stepped out onto the rifle range.no one was using it (we all were in the clubhouse)I ran out and grabbed the Marlin 336 35 Rem. from the trucks gun rack and it started quickly heading back for its hole.I gave it a 200 grainer smack in the middle of it broadside about 80yds away and it strung its guts out all the way back to the hole.Never did that again!

[J Miller]

O.T.H.,

What's a "FIB"??

Joe

[Don McDowell]

OTH if I recollect properly TR said that antelope was 186 paces.

[Malamute]

The Hornady leverevolution data is deceptive. It is not an even comparison. They use a 200 yard zero for the leverevolution rounds, then use a 100 yard zero for the other rounds, and, the standard Hornady 30-30 bullets have very poor BC's compared to other makers.

Lets compare them in a more realistic light. Speer 30-30 bullets have a noticably better bc than the Hornady's in similar weights. Lets sight them in at similar ranges also.

Hornady LE 160 gr
100 200 300
+3" 0.2" -12.1"

Speer 150 gr (bc .268) 2400 fps muzzle 1554 fps@300 yds
100 200 300
+3.3" 0 -14"

Speer 170 gr (bc .304) 2200 fps muzzle 1475 fps@300yds
100 200 300
+3.9" 0 -16.1

250 yards, if the shooter is able with the particular rifle, isnt out of the question with any of those loads, when sighted roughly 3" high @ 100 yards. 300 yards isnt out of the question, if one knows their gun, load, and range. The leverevolution is an improvment, but nearly as much as advertised. Hardly revolutionary. 2" less drop @ 300 yards than the 150 gr load.

I don't hunt with the 30-30 in general, I prefer a scoped bolt gun. I shoot the 30-30 at 300 yards and find it isnt very difficult to hit the 18" plate @ 300 yards with iron sights. Scoped, it should be useful as a hunting rifle to nearly that range if one is a decent shot, is a decent judge or range, or uses a range finder. 250 yards is still "hold right on and shoot" distance when sighted properly.

Maybe a scope is a crutch, but one I find useful. I hunt to make meat. If I didnt have access to my regular hunting rifle, I'd use a 30-30 out to 300 yards without hesitation, with glass.

[CEMENTHEAD]

Depends on your level of marksmanship. My Dad can't see the sights too well past 100 yds so he limits himself to 50 yds MAX. Myself, I have shot out to 300 yds on a target range for fun. However I limit myself to 100 yds on moving deer,150 yds on quartering deer and 175 yds on stationary, broadside deer. My cousin, who hunts Colorado, routinely takes Antelope and small Mulies out to 200-225 yds every year. I told him he needs to improve his "Injun" skills and get closer.... Thanks, Tom

[Doc Hudson]

It really depends on the crank yanking the trigger more than the cartridge.

Jim Taylor once told me that a World Record Rocky Mountain Sheep was taken with a .30-30 WCF Model 94 some time back in the 1920's. The rifle was fitted with a tang sight and the range was a bit over 400 yards.

I'd never make a 400 yard shot on game with a .30-30 WCF. Then again I'd probably not try a 400 yard shot on game with a .300 WinMag either.

With a scoped .30-30, my personal limit is 200 yards. Feel free to try longer shots, but 200 is my limit. With iron sights, I'd try to keep my shots 100 yards or less.

Of course the truth of the matter is that with the condition my eyes have gotten to, I've no assurance of being able to make a 100 yard shot even with a scoped rifle, of any caliber, these days.

[El Chivo]

I'm pretty confident out to 200, although putting it in the heart/lung area is a little iffy. I can certainly hit the rams out that far. Shooting with a rest feels like cheating.

I want to practice out to 300 yds because I have a clearing that could go that far. But I haven't had a chance yet.

I am at least as accurate with a tang sight as a scope. And it's lighter to carry!

[Old Time Hunter]

O.T.H.,

What's a "FIB"??

Joe

It is an acronym that people up here in Wisconsin have for the gentrified urban dwellers that know more about what is good for you than you do, mostly from the north eastern area of Illinois. Their sense of superiority allows them unabashed confidence to ignore both time held cultural traditions and property owners rights, unless it is theirs of course, because they feel that they can always buy their way around it. Either through the legal system (they lobby like all git out) or from direct bribery.

That's as nice as I can put it without cause'n problems.

[Old Savage]

Hornady's BCs are just more conservative and have always been. There isn't any real difference between their comparable bullet shapes and other makers.

[jlchucker]

O.T.H.,

What's a "FIB"??

Joe

It is an acronym that people up here in Wisconsin have for the gentrified urban dwellers that know more about what is good for you than you do, mostly from the north eastern area of Illinois. Their sense of superiority allows them unabashed confidence to ignore both time held cultural traditions and property owners rights, unless it is theirs of course, because they feel that they can always buy their way around it. Either through the legal system (they lobby like all git out) or from direct bribery.

That's as nice as I can put it without cause'n problems.

We who've lived in Vermont all of our lives call these types of people "Flatlanders". They've overrun our State to a point where it's lost its heritage and soul.

[Dave]

For me max range with the 30-30 for game is 200 yards. The round isn't dropping off that much so as long as you do right you can get a good hit. I am too chicken to shoot past that with the 30-30 on deer but I will sling lead at varmints all the way out to "yonder". I hit them sometimes.

[Malamute]

"Hornady's BCs are just more conservative and have always been. There isn't any real difference between their comparable bullet shapes and other makers."

Have you shot them at various ranges to check that?


I can see a very noticable difference in shape just looking at them (the 170's), and when shooting in the field, can see a very obvious difference in drop/holdover at langer ranges. I believe their 30-30 bullets just have poor BC's. Their numbers may be off, but they still are not as streamlined as most other makers. It shows in the shooting, and by eyeball. The Hornady 170's have been very accurate in several of my guns, but just dont shoot as flat. Same loads.

[horsesoldier03]

Not a hard and fast rule, but for me 100 yrds for Iron Sights and out to 200 with a scope.
Alot of it depends on if I have a good rest or if I have only a fence post for support. Personally, I try to keep all my shots less than 100 yrds. If you cant get closer than that, IT AIN'T HUNTING! But that is just my personal opinion!

[El Chivo]

O.T.H.,

What's a "FIB"??

Joe

It is an acronym that people up here in Wisconsin have for the gentrified urban dwellers that know more about what is good for you than you do, mostly from the north eastern area of Illinois. Their sense of superiority allows them unabashed confidence to ignore both time held cultural traditions and property owners rights, unless it is theirs of course, because they feel that they can always buy their way around it. Either through the legal system (they lobby like all git out) or from direct bribery.

That's as nice as I can put it without cause'n problems.

Oh yes, I had it explained to me when I lived up there. It stands for "Fine Illinois Bretheren" (or perhaps persons from the Land of Lincoln who indulge in fornication and whose parents were never married).

[Don McDowell]

If I can make this thing accept a post and pic later on I'll post a pic that compares the Hornady, Remington, Winchester and Speer 30-30 bullets. The Speers are a lot more aerodynamically shaped than the others.

[Old Savage]

Malamute - can you quantify that? How much difference do you find?

The manuals aren't altogether consistent on this but the listed difference in drop for 2200 fps. at 200 yds with a 100 yd zero is 7.8" for Speer, 9.2" for Hornady and 9.05" for Sierra in the manuals I have here. Don't know about you but I would have to do quite a bit of shooting at 200 yds to prove those differences.

Speer does some funny thing with numbers on BC. Look at the 308 data in the #12 manual. Look at the BC gain from 150 gr to 165 gr in the RN, Spitzer and Grand Slam. Do you really think the difference in change is so different between those various shapes?

Their Rem 700 308 shoots faster than their Rem 700 30-06. None of mine with 4 of each has done that. I also find their 6mm data to be significantly off from mine.

Look at their velocity difference between RL 19 and IMR 4831 on the 100 gr Grand Slam. 310 fps. ????? I don't think so. Then look at the difference in their two 100 gr bullets. In maximum velocity where there is no difference in charge with RL19 between them???

On the 30-06 - 52.0 gr of 4320 only gets 2700 with a 150 gr bullet? They ought get another Rem 700 if theirs is that slow. Mine is much faster.

When I start with their data I always include a grain of salt.

[Don McDowell]

Notice the difference of the Speer bullets on the right compared to the hornady 150?
Notice also the difference in the 170 Corloc and the Speer 170 loaded in the ai?

[greyowl]

For me, I consider point blank range to be the max distance for a specific round. I think a pbr +/- of 6" for deer hunting. That's my starting point, then can I, with that rifle hit the target consistantly. At what ever distance that is out to the pbr of 6" is my max. For me with my 336, that's 150 yards. I feel very comfortable and confident at that distance. I'm sure some can go farther,I think the cartridge can kill deer and be accurate at 225-250 yards. But not with a bpr of 6", and not in my hands, so I stay shorter. Be honest with yourself about your abilities with your rifle in the field.

[w30wcf]

Don,
Thank you for the pics.

Old Savage,
Yes, indeed. Bullet drop at 200 from a 100 yard zero between the Hornady and Speer 170 gr. bullets is almost identical (-8" vs. -7"). However, as the range increases, the higher b. c. of the Speer really begins to show. At 300 yards, there is a 9" difference (-36" vs -27").....also a big difference in retained velocity (1,200 f.p.s. vs. 1,500 f.p.s.).

At 400 yards, the difference is almost 2 feet! (-86" vs. -63").

I have shot both bullets at the 300 meter (327 yards) steel Javelina and with the Speer bullets hitting dead on, the Hornady's were shooting underneath....about 1 foot lower.

Sincerely,
w30wcf

[Old Savage]

More on BC differences - compare Speer's # of .483 for a 180 gr spitzer and Sierra's of .415 - think there is that much difference between the two bullets? Where do they test them - Idaho? Altitude? I think you will find their BCs are consistently higher than Sierra who incidently had to redo theirs when they found there was a slight measurement discrepency at their test range. They found this out from the target shooter feedback that they got. But we are still talking about a difference of approx. 1 1/2" at 200 yds in drop. Highly significant?

[Gary]

Will the Hornady LE bullet better the Speer 170 gr past 200 yards?



Hornady LEVERevolution Bullet, 30-30 Winchester (308 Diameter) 160 Grain Flex Tip Expanding.

Ballistic Coefficient: 0.330
Sectional Density: 0.241