I need Help! PPPastor,Ambracol,PACO,Hobie????????

rafter-7 · Post by **rafter-7** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:14 am

I have not said a thing over the last 8 months but I have lost 9 friends to the other side.one of witch is my cow dog sparky that has saved my life twice. and I am eturnally greatfull rest in peace spark!

I only have two friends(Arjunky and Allen,that have been with me since the beginning, they have never waviered or critized me and/our friendship always rang through,I have been there for them, and them for me.

My problem is that Allen (Big shooter)(since grade school) took his own life last night.

I am Luthern as well as Allen and Byron and in our way a man that takes his oun life is not allowed in Heaven,

My wife looked for 3 hours tonight (in the good book) tring to find a loupold so that I know he will be waiting for me on the other side to pick up where we left off.

a passage of comfort to know that he will be there would be very helpfull right about now.

Chad
rafter-7

The furnel is monday at 10 // I and 5 other friends (no relatives) are carrieing him to his final resting place he was 38 years old.

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:24 am

Jesus - John Chapter 6 - I will lose none of that which is given to me.

Paul - to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Hagler · Post by **Hagler** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:32 am

Chad,

That is a shocker.

I am a Christian, too. I wish I knew where to point you in the Bible. I am an inadequate man, and about all I can do is tell you to keep trusting in the LORD, and continue to seek His wisdom, and lean on Jesus. Give Him your burden, as this is not your doing, and it is out of your hands. GOD is just & righteous, and HE knows what to do. I will remember you and his family in my prayers. We ALL need to lift up you & Allen's family in prayer. May GOD bless you all, and comfort you.

Shawn

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:39 am

John 10 - My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me: and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish: and no one shall shatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all: and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

rafter-7 · Post by **rafter-7** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:44 am

the only thing I can remember is the poem...

Footprints

the one where God carried me... if there was ever a time.. its now

I am sorry guys but this one put me over the top. A friend should have know.// To step in right??

Hagler · Post by **Hagler** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:00 am

Chad,

Do you mean that you should have known something was wrong, and you should have helped your friend?

I have a friend of more than 25 years. He has just about cut off communication with me. I believe that Hurricane Katrina affected him tremendously, and he rarely even e-mails me now. I know he is lonely, though he is married and has 4 beatiful, young daughters. He expressed to me that he needs "mental discipline", he has taken up martial arts to find it. He is now living in Texas, and believes that Louisiana, his home state, is not the place for his children. All I can do for him is continue to write him, let him know that he is always my friend, and pray for him. We are sepparated by so many miles, and I think of him often.

Shawn

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:11 am

There is no way to KNOW, it isn't on you. I had a friend that did this. It is not understandable by us.

rafter-7 · Post by **rafter-7** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:14 am

Hagler

My friend as yours was into more giving than recieving. He always asked hows it going for you... well that sounds great... And his troubles (though asked about) were just fine...I'am doing OK! when you know it can't be good///// I know now thats when its time to step in!

chad

rafter-7 · Post by **rafter-7** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:24 am

Old Savage,

the verses you have found have brought me comfort tonight,

For the first time in my life/ Life has brought me to my knees at the foot of my bed and asked GOD to bend the rules and let my friend in,

Allen never asked for anything for himself it was always for someone else

He left behind 3 children and a X wife.. I should have known christmas was always hard on him

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:05 am

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from Godâ€™s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

ROMANS 8: 38, 39

People today are imperfect, and especially those under emotional distress will do things which seem so illogical. GOD knows the frailties of imperfect man and I believe he takes these things into account when he inspects them, he can read the heart and what's inside the heart is what counts, not a single mistake. I have great faith I will see my Dad again, GOD knows he was a good man and lived a righteous life and one moment of weakness can never erase that. Nothing can separate us from GOD's love through Christ Jesus, NOTHING. I will pray for your strength and peace and for Allen's family as well.

rafter-7 · Post by **rafter-7** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:12 am

Thanks Ji.

its 3:11 in the AM here and I find myself walking around the house looking for somthing???

Devestating to say the least.

Chad
EDIT...
I forgot I am sorry // but you would know// you have walked the mile and I am just starting

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:22 am

Some may consider suicide is an unrighteous act but remember this scripture:

"and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous"

Romans 24:15

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:25 am

"For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin." Romans 6:7

rafter-7 · Post by **rafter-7** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:26 am

Well Ji,

That one left me in the "Dust" need further explaintion.

chad

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:28 am

"He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him. The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins."
1John 4:8-10

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:32 am

GOD shows us mercy knowing how frail we are.

"He has not done to us even according to our sins;
Nor according to our errors has he brought upon us what we deserve.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
His loving-kindness is superior toward those fearing him.
As far off as the sunrise is from the sunset,
So far off from us he has put our transgressions.
As a father shows mercy to his sons,
GOD has shown mercy to those fearing him.
For he himself well knows the formation of us,
Remembering that we are dust."

Psalms 103: 10-14

rafter-7 · Post by **rafter-7** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:40 am

Allen and I undersand it now.

We were confirmed on the same day at the same country church in the middle of nowhere. But I will tell you this his beliefe in God the Almighty was a Whole lot more than I at the time...// But now I know he is a good man/Dad/and a lot of prayers will get him in to Heaven.

But does it make since to me at this time???

no

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:48 am

rafter-7 wrote:Well Ji,

That one left me in the "Dust" need further explaintion.

chad

If you're refering to Romans 6:7 "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin."

The thought I was try to convey is that the sin of suicide has been acquitted by the commiter's own death, in other words

"For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23

He paid for his sin (of suicide) with his own death, he has a clean slate again in GOD's eyes, that's what I get from the scripture.

We all commits sins, without the mercy of Christ's ransome sacrifice we too would have to die first in order to pay for our numerous sins.

I hope that makes sense, it's late here too, sorry

rafter-7 · Post by **rafter-7** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:54 am

Ji,

Romans 24:15 had me wondering.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:07 am

Chad, my apologies, it's late and my mind is foggy at best. Hang in there, my prayers will continue for all involved. I know Allen would never want you to suffer the way you are. I think Allen is in good hands so don't worry even though I know you miss him so much, you'll see him again.

rafter-7 · Post by **rafter-7** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:16 am

You are a Man amoung men Ji,

thanks for your passages,

Chad

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:23 am

Chad,

I just saw this. You know the first thing I did was pray for Allen, his family and friends, including you. I know it is a tough thing for those left behind to go through. We who don't do this, who don't ever contemplate such action, simply can't understand the thought process of those who do. You are probably wondering why you didn't see this coming, but please, know that many folks who make this choice can be very good at hiding their thoughts and disguising their intentions.

I have read the Bible a couple of times, even considered whether or not I had the calling, but I'm a poor student and don't know scripture well enough to give you that comfort. What I can say is that I hope that you will be there for his family who are now particularly vulnerable to this awful thought/choice.

Again, our prayers are with Allen, his family and you.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:56 am

My condolences Rafter 7. ...very sorry to hear of this Sir. None of this is your fault and it was out of your control. I think Ji has it and he has been through all of this; there is no way that we can place a limit on the Grace of Christ Jesus. That is all up to him as He know us. Of course, as you know it's NOT the way to go out and leaves only devastation and questions behind. We'll know more later. God bless and stay strong in the Faith for yourself and those around you.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:14 am

Chad, e-mail en route.

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:19 am

Trust in the lord, for he is a forgiving God.

dsmith512 · Post by **dsmith512** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:10 am

For the Lord sees not as man sees; for man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart. 1 Samuel 16:7

Remember no one knows what state this mans heart was in when he died, that is for the Lord alone to see.

All my prayers for strength and encouragement for you and your family.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:13 am

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved!

gon2shoot · Post by **gon2shoot** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:19 pm

Rafter 7, Jesus didn't go to the cross so that "some" of our sins could be forgiven.
You've gone through a rough time, so did Job, youre in good company.
There is a question that you will have to answer for yourself: Do you trust God, and do you believe what He says?

Prayers up that He help you with your burden.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:25 pm

I can't add anything but you, yours and his family are in my prayers.

Truly sorry for your loss my friend.

Johnny

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:44 pm

Many many wonderfull Sciptural insights in this sad post.
We must trust in Jehovah and his Son as supreem judge over us and trust in his wondrfull promise of everlasting life. All of us will be in circumstance that will test our faith at some time however by reflecting Gods love and undeserved kindness by helping the ones most needy we can make ourselves open to His blessings. Peace to his family and you his friend, Nathan.

hartman · Post by **hartman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:54 pm

GOD Comfort you!

Don't blame yourself and down the road don't blame any one else. Now there is noone to blame. Pray for his family and yourself and leave it in GODS hands.

Hartman

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:51 pm

Let's not lift verses out of context & use our own flawed reasoning to make the outcome we desire. Let's only recognize the infinite justice & mercy of our loving Heavenly Father & be satisfied He is in control of the situation, & live our lives the best we can. jd45

dr walker · Post by **dr walker** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:23 pm

My wife and I lost a dear friend this past year to suicide. I prayed for his soul and will continue to do so. The pastor that led his memorial service told us it (suicide) was o.k.. I dont know and never will. but I'll keep praying for my friends soul.
As soon as I read your initial post I prayed for Allen's soul. I am sorry for your loss.

Rexster · Post by **Rexster** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:36 pm

I am not really up on my scripture-quotin', but from what I have read and remember, there is nothing to indicate suicide is unpardonable, and I am confident that suicide is forgiven. Church doctrine is often based on more on maintaining control of the members' behaviour than scriptural truth. Prayers from Texas for your friend! My condolences to all who knew him.

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:05 pm

I had a favorite uncle that was very close to me. We lived together several times. He was a highly decorated world war 2 vet, 82nd AB, gliders etc, bunch of bronze siver star, 2 purple hearts. He came home screwed up, stayed single and was a hell raiser.
About 1972 he had a heart attack and had open heart surgery in the early days of it. While the operation was successfull he had a stroke on the operation table and it affected him mentaly where he was highly depressed and threatned suicide untill he finaly did kill himself. He was suppose to come to my house that day! I took it harder then my own folks death that died naturly at old age. I belive that when someone is drove to suicide they are mentaly ill. There has to be lee-way from the lord in such cases I would think.
The day of 9-11 I happened to be with my 88 year old dad who had alzheimers. He was a strong christian. When we saw people jumping off the twin towers as it was burning, he shook his head and blurted out they were all going to hell, we got into one of the very few arguments of our lives!
Tragic as it is, one sure thing is you cant change a thing once it happens to a loved one. Saved or unsaved its over. We can wallow in misery or guilt or turn the page!

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:30 pm

rafter-7 wrote: a passage of comfort to know that he will be there would be very helpfull right about now.

Chad
rafter-7

Bringing comfort to a bereaving brother was what was done, to belittle this effort by others is not very Christian in behavior.

jd45 wrote:Let's not lift verses out of context & use our own flawed reasoning to make the outcome we desire. Let's only recognize the infinite justice & mercy of our loving Heavenly Father & be satisfied He is in control of the situation, & live our lives the best we can. jd45

Not sure to whom you're eluding to or what passage you seem to think was out of context but you need to have more faith in GOD's word, and realize that the Bible is consistent and interprets itself. Blind faith is never promoted or encouraged in the scriptures, but taking in accurate knowledge and making sure of the more important things is, so is promoting of this knowledge in wisdom.
To quote the Apostle Paul: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost. Nevertheless, the reason why I was shown mercy was that by means of me as the foremost case Christ Jesus might demonstrate all his long-suffering for a sample of those who are going to rest their faith on him for everlasting life. (1 Timothy 1:15, 16) I will be the first to admit that I too am foremost of sinners, GOD knows this. But I will continue praise GOD using his word.
You need to be more positive, less negative, and back up whatever you believe from scripture, not blind acceptance of dogma heard from the pulpit.

"Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine" 1 Thessalonians 5:21

Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to BeÂ·roe′a, and these, upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in ThesÂ·saÂ·loÂ·ni′ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.
Acts 17:10,11

For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge; for, because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
Romans 10:2,3

And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ, until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ; in order that we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error. But speaking the truth, let us by love grow up in all things into him who is the head, Christ.
Ephesians 4:11-15

And this is what I continue praying, that YOUR love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment; that YOU may make sure of the more important things, so that YOU may be flawless and not be stumbling others up to the day of Christ, and may be filled with righteous fruit, which is through Jesus Christ, to Godâ€™s glory and praise.
Philipians 1:9-11

That is also why we, from the day we heard [of it], have not ceased praying for YOU and asking that YOU may be filled with the accurate knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension, in order to walk worthily of GOD to the end of fully pleasing [him] as YOU go on bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the accurate knowledge of God, being made powerful with all power to the extent of his glorious might so as to endure fully and be long-suffering with joy, thanking the Father who rendered YOU suitable for YOUR participation in the inheritance of the holy ones in the light.
Colossians 1:9-12

Yes, for this very reason, by YOUR contributing in response all earnest effort, supply to YOUR faith virtue, to [YOUR] virtue knowledge, to [YOUR] knowledge self-control, to [YOUR] self-control endurance, to [YOUR] endurance godly devotion, to [YOUR] godly devotion brotherly affection, to [YOUR] brotherly affection love. For if these things exist in YOU and overflow, they will prevent YOU from being either inactive or unfruitful regarding the accurate knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:5-8

YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. In the same manner was not also Ra′hab the harlot declared righteous by works, after she had received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
James 2:24-26

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:24 pm

Ji, I understand what you & another were trying to do, which is commendable. I softened the thoughts I was thinking by the words I posted, but, I may have been wrong thinking this was the time to say what I thought. I meant no offense to you or anyone else, my brother. jd45

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:19 pm

I lost my best friend to suicide as well, after having grown up together. I have studied the Bible on a daily basis for over 40 years and I have taught it for over 30. In spite of all that, I would not claim to know what the answer is to this question. I do know that we are not given authority over the day of our death (Ecclesiastes), but what if we take our lives anyway? In interesting passage is in I Samuel 28. In this passage, Saul is told by Samuel (who is already dead, but whose spirit has been permitted to answer Saul) that "tomorrow, you and your sons will be with me." Clearly, Samuel was a man of God. We are also told that Saul took his own life, yet would be with Samuel after death. It would seem, therefore, that Saul's taking his own life, even though he lived a rather pathetic example of a person who follows God, would still be with Samuel in death. From the parable Jesus told of the rich man and Lazarus, there were only two places to go prior to the time when Jesus made the payment for sin. One was hades, and the other was referred to as paradise (a waiting place prior to Christ's sacrifice for sin .... now His people go immediately into the presence of God). If we assume Samuel went to paradise, which is a good assumption, then we also have to conclude that Saul went there as well. In spite of Saul's serious character flaws and his suicide, he still had faith in God for forgiveness of sin and eternal life and it seems he still went to the same place as Samuel.

Some would argue that it wasn't really Samuel who was saying this, but the Bible says that it was. Ultimately, we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of our sin and for eternal life.

This doesn't really answer your question, Rafter-7, but it is food for thought. Ultimately, we must choose whether we will have the faith to believe that God will always do the right thing. Your friend is in God's hands now and you must have faith that God will do the right thing.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:36 pm

jd45 wrote:Ji, I understand what you & another were trying to do, which is commendable. I softened the thoughts I was thinking by the words I posted, but, I may have been wrong thinking this was the time to say what I thought. I meant no offense to you or anyone else, my brother. jd45

I never dreamed my words of comfort from GOD's Word might bring out harsh thoughts (needing softening) from anyone, and I'm not sure what to think. Maybe I should just avoid these off topic posts and take it privately via PM or email so as not to upset others, it was never my intent.

Just to clarify my beliefs, I do not believe in a Hell where a GOD of love would punish his children for their sins for an eternity, it just does not jibe with scripture, and I could find no support in research of ancient manuscripts in original languages. Death is the price we pay for sins, not eternal torment: "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
Even Adam for his sins was not sent to a Hell to suffer eternal torment, no he lost his perfect human life and was returned to dust: "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.â€

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:47 pm

God makes the rules, not us! There is plenty in the bible about heaven, hell and salvation. What about the rich man in hell wanting god to send poor lazurus to dip his hand in water and cool his tounge? And then asking god to send the word to his brothers so they might change their ways and not come to hell? Gods mind isnt like ours, just because we couldnt send a loved son to hell does not mean that is not what he will do if they reject his word! He many places in the bible speaks of eternal punishment and the rewards of heaven. There is another passage in the bible that says or ask,s doth thou belive?, the devil also belives, and trembels! Best to take god at his word and not try to invent how we hope it will be! Guess whos idea of what god would do proves out!

PPpastordon · Post by **PPpastordon** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:16 pm

rafter-7;
I sent a PM to you.
There are some great comments, information and Scripture quotes in these posts. But I do not know if even those will help you; though I pray they do. I do know this; God wants you to be at peace, God is love, God loves your friend - even now, in death.
As someone who has talked with family members after suicides several times, I want to recommend you pay attention to what KirkD said. It is certainly on track; especially his closing stastement - "Your friend is in God's hands now and you must have faith that God will do the right thing."
Grace and Peace,

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:53 pm

God speaks in context and out. Sometimes it applies to the the immediate situation you are reading in the Bible at the time and sometimes it is speaking eternal truth. Sometimes both at the same time.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:08 pm

As one of the ringleaders in getting off topic and thinking of only my own viewpoint, I would offer that this debate is better had over a cheeseburger and a coke, with your brother in front of you, rather than here in front of all. Another time fellas

Were too close to home for both rafter and Ji to go into all this.

Brasso · Post by **Brasso** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:29 pm

No one can know the heart of another. Only YHWH knows the heart of man. Don't be concerned over church traditions that tell us what the Father will do. Trust in Him for salvation. His de ath covers all. Sui cide is a sickness, just like anything else. Like cancer, it can take believer and unbeliever alike. It is a sad thing to have to witness, but like any other de ath, there is always the hope of life in Messiah. I wish there was more encouraging words to share, but we just can't know another's heart. Don't let the fact that it was sui cide taint your own heart. If he was covered by the bl ood then he will live. He is the Elohim of the living, not the de ad. He has come to cut the bonds of de ath.

1Co 15:55 O de ath, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:04 am

bogus bill wrote:God makes the rules, not us! There is plenty in the bible about heaven, hell and salvation. What about the rich man in hell wanting god to send poor lazurus to dip his hand in water and cool his tounge? And then asking god to send the word to his brothers so they might change their ways and not come to hell?

We agree then, GOD does make the rules and that is why he provided us his written word the Bible so that we could learn what his rules are, what his will and grand purpose is, you cannot ignore his word and just declare everything a mystery or you show disregard for such a fine gift, read it, study it, take in the knowledge and use it to help others, Christ was our exemplar and we his followers, that is what being a Christian means.
You speak of The PARABLE of the Rich Man & Lazarus from Luke 16:19-31. This was a STORY made up by Jesus to teach a lesson and was not based on any real historical events. Christ is famous for teaching using PARABLES as teaching aids. If you would like I can go into detail about why this PARABLE is just that, a story (though a very good one), and what lesson Jesus was trying to teach.

You have validated my previous point with your loose paraphase of James 2:18-23 which states: Nevertheless, a certain one will say: â€œYou have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.â€

I need Help! PPPastor,Ambracol,PACO,Hobie????????

I need Help! PPPastor,Ambracol,PACO,Hobie????????

i need

old savage thanks!