"Old" newbie question -- .357 ammo

[Fritz der Kat]

Here's one for the ages:

I recently bought a Rossi EMF "cowboy carbine" chambered in .38/.357. I did so largely because I wanted a repeating rifle, other than semi-auto, that is hard hitting at shorter distances and one that would complement my handgun, a S&W Model 60, three-inch barrel, also chambered in .357. In effect, I was hoping I'd need only one kind of ammunition.

Ha.

i've been researching various sites, have found all kinds of information, but none of it definitive, far as I am concerned.

Yes, the 125-grainers, usually JHP or SJHP, as manufactured by the leading producers--Federal, Remington and Winchester--are generally touted as the route to take for the handgun--proven "man stoppers," etc.

But then when it comes to the carbine, I see recommendations that run all the way from NOT using the 125-grain, especially in hollow point, because of the possibility they will disintegrate coming out of a rifle barrel at highly increased FPS; to 140-grain, which I find to be offered almost nowhere by the popular manufacturers; to the classic 158-grain and even beyond (180 grains, even 200!) for cleanly downing mid-sized game, etc.

For the handgun, shooting at targets and measuring relative accuracy, recoil and such, I've always found the 125-grain to work well. In experimenting with 158 grains, however, I've found the kick to be...considerable. In using.38 Special at 158 grains, the "FBI load," there's a great deal of fouling.

So, questions abound:

1. What happens were I to use the 125's in my carbine?

2. What is the ideal load for a carbine?

3. Is there a suitable compromise load for both handgun and carbine?

4. Is JHP preferable to SJHP?

5. What about soft points? What about ball?

6. Where does .38+P come into the mix? I find the Remington 125's in this caliber to work quite nicely for both handgun and rifle. But how much, if any, am I giving away by using .38+P in terms of relative stopping power?

Finally, for your information, I am not a hunter, and somehow do not foresee myself foraging for survival by shooting a deer. All my guns (I also have an old 16 gauge pump by WesternField) are primarily for self- and home defense. The main reason I bought the carbine is in the event that the bottom falls out of society, marauders are running through my backyard, etc.

Anybody's help here will be greatly appreciated.

[Rusty]

Fritz,
First let me welcome you to leverguns.com may your stay be long and fruitful.

You don't have to worry about your bullet coming apart while leaving the barrel of your carbine. The only time a bullet could "come apart" is after it has struck something. For your purposes in your M60 the 125 grain bullet is considered by many to be the best one shot stopper out there. Finding something that works well in both your handgun and your rifle will always be a bit of a compromise for one or the other. But both will still be effective.
You've started what I'm sure will be a very informative thread. Sit back and enjoy the replies.

Happy Trails and God Bless,
Rusty <><

[PPpastordon]

Personally, I would never go lighter than the 158 for general use. However, the 125's are good varminting bullets.

Your question makes it sound like factory ammo is the way you are going. Therefore, I would suggest beginning with what you fine that shoots in the "Cowboy Carbine" and then see how it does in your revolver. I suggest this way because after the testing, many have told me, "I can't tell any difference in my revolver's accuracy."

For years my bullet was the Hornady 180 JHP. They are great in my .357 Max., each of my lever carbines, and my long cylinder Blackhawks. With the dual crimp groves they can be seated to the rear grove for the same OAL (and same loads) as my .357 DW.
While I am not abandoning them, I am looking for a cast replacement. The Lyman 358429 might make it, but the testing is far from over.

Hope that helps.

[Hobie]

The thing is that the rifle gives several hundred feet per second more velocity. While some have used standard loads in the carbine with great success I just never felt comfortable doing that. That's just a prejudice I have and I admit it. So, I decided to go with the 180 in my rifle (until I shoot them up) and the 158s in my revolvers... I don't have a M60 .357 Mag. Another prejudice I'll just live with.

[Old Ironsights]

Yey Fritz. I've got Inlaws in New Hope & Blaine... They're probably Ice Fishing now...

1. What happens were I to use the 125's in my carbine?

Nothing bad. Too light for deer IMO, but will make a mess of a thin-skinned Varmint - 2 or 4 legged.

2. What is the ideal load for a carbine?

For what purpose? I shot a 8pt Basket up near Nimrod MN at 110 yds (ish) with a 180gr hard cast from my 20" Rossi. Would have been hard pressed to mangle the shoulder more with a 30-06 (good bone hit).

I shoot 158gr sjsp (Magtech) for plinking/target and 158gr LSWCHP at subsonic velocities for small game/"catsneeze".

3. Is there a suitable compromise load for both handgun and carbine?

My favorites are the Federal C357G 180gr SJHP or Federal P357XB1 Barnes Expander.

IMO the 180gr C357G has less felt recoil out of my SP101 than the Magtech 158gr SJSPs.

The Barnes Expanders are "snappier" out of the SP101, but they carry better in my pocket than exposed-lead bullets.

Both are excellent out of the Rossi. Spendy though. Right now, Magtech 158gr SJSPs are the cheapest and most accurate out of my guns - and are still good to 100yds from the rifle.

4. Is JHP preferable to SJHP?

I don't think there is a JHP available in .357. I think they are ALL SJHPs.

5. What about soft points? What about ball?

SJSPs & ball/cast for Target or hunting only. I really hate pass-through collateral damage to innocents...

6. Where does .38+P come into the mix? I find the Remington 125's in this caliber to work quite nicely for both handgun and rifle. But how much, if any, am I giving away by using .38+P in terms of relative stopping power?

Can't say there. Should be fine for 2 legged Varmints though.

Finally, for your information, I am not a hunter, and somehow do not foresee myself foraging for survival by shooting a deer. All my guns (I also have an old 16 gauge pump by WesternField) are primarily for self- and home defense. The main reason I bought the carbine is in the event that the bottom falls out of society, marauders are running through my backyard, etc....

Now you tell me...

Shoot what is accurate to you in your guns, that you can get the most of.

Shot placement will ALWAYS be more important tha absolute energy, expansion or velocity.

If you like 125gr 38+P, have plenty and can shoot nickles out of people's fingers at 50yds, then I wouldn't worry about it.

[Fritz der Kat]

A couple of comments and another question.

First of all, thanks for the input. This is adding up to the kind of info I've been looking for. It would appear that my quest for one ammo for both rifle and revolver is likely not the way to go--except in a pinch, of course.

I am not concerned about bullets disintegrating upon "leaving the barrel," but rather, based on other info I have read, that lighter loads fired from the carbine might "splash" or break up upon hitting the target.

Second, yes, I'm talking about factory ammo; I am not a reloader.

Third, and here's the question, whereas I understand that shooting .38 Special for target and practice is preferred and practical, does this have any effect on sighting in the rifle? In other words, were I to sight it in using, say. 158 grain, what would be the result in accuracy when I substitute .38 Special? Or vice-versa, for that matter.

As for ice fishing in Minnesnota--oh, yeah, they're all out there, and so are the snowmobilers. After several years of warmish winters, comparatively speaking, the winter enthusiasts are downright giddy. Might I add, it's colder here than yere proverbial witch's teat.

[Tycer]

Changing from one ammo to another in any gun changes point of impact - both windage and elevation.

I would recommend the same ammo in both for personal defense. No need to adjust your sights for inside the home distances. The 125's are fine. I do not believe penetration will be a problem in-home. The Cor-Bons would be my choice.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Corb ... 20Ammo.htm

Same ammo in both for plinking and small game. Set your sights for these. Bulk 148 grain .38 Special Wadcutters is what I use. (Clean your chambers well before firing 357s again)

Specialty ammo for larger game. Adjust your sights appropriately for when you hunt. Grizzly or Buffalo Bore 180s there if I did not handload.

[FWiedner]

I did a similar evaluation of factory .357 cartridges about 4 years ago, but was trying to optimize on the hunting side rather than personal defense.

In the end, I selected the American Eagle 158gr JSP for general use in both my revolvers and my carbine.

I also occassionaly use the Buffalo Bore 158gr JHC, or the Winchester Supreme 180gr JHP.

[Old Ironsights]

Here's the advantage of having a Peep (Tang or Reciever) AND regular buckhorns.

My Peep is sighted for 180gr hunting loads (75-100yds) and my Buckhorns are sighted for 158s (5oyds) & Catsneeze loads (25yds).

Don't forget that if you are regularly shooting .38s in your .357 you will need to clean the fouling before it will feed the .357s right.

[Idahoser]

[centershot]

Welcome to the forum, Fritz! You pose an intrersting question, qnd it has many answers! For me, I went with a 180 gr cast TC over 11.0 gr of 2400 for carbine and pistol. It runs around 1500 from the rifle and around 1100 in the short gun, accurate in both. I'm not worried about expansion (there isn't any), I wanted an accurate load that shoots where the sights point. I'm a firm believer in the "two-hole-theory"; one going in and one coming out! It takes the wind out of anything I'm likely to need to shoot!

centershot

[Hillbilly]

I like lead 158 grains out of my Marlin. I do shoot some 125 Remington soft point or Mag Techs from time to time. All seem to work well on feral dogs and coyotes and whatever varmits we run across.

the leads and soft points work pretty good on mid sized deer if you keep the distance less than 75 yards.

Oh..hollow points make a mess...dont ask me how I know this.

`J