Accuracy Problem with very late 94 ae in 44 magnum

[Alan Wood]

I bought a 94 angle eject very late in winchesters production of them. Little more than a year after I bought it winchester closed the plant. More to the point I have never been able to get a decent group out of it. And I'm not sure why. With a friends varmit rifle in 22-250 I place my second shot within 1/4 inch at 100 yards. Granted with a scope and at 46 my eyes aren't what they used to be. With the 94 I'm lucky if every shot is on paper at 100. The other suspect is the rear stock. It moves somewhere between a 64th and a 32cnd of an inch front to rear. Sugestions anyone?

[Travis Morgan]

Some people just suck with iron sights; how do you shoot other iron sighted rifles? (Or are you one of those misguided bastards that scopes Winchesters? )

[Alan Wood]

My other iron sighted rifle has a front sight issue that I need to correct. It drifts from right to left. It is a yugoslavian mauser with a loose front sight blade. I may try scoping the 94 in desperation. I suspect that I need to break out my air rifles and practice some more but still I should be better than this with the 94.

[salvo]

What are you shooting in it?
My eyes are a few years older than yours and lately I have had a heck of a time getting a good sight picture with irons at 100 yds. been using red paper plates lately and they help a lot! Try shooting a few groups at 50 yds and make sure the sites are set were you want them, you'll probable have to adjust elevation a bit at 100 but shooting at 50 will give your eyes a brake and let you know if it's the rifle or you.
Make sure you dont have a loose front or rear sight on you 94 too.
The butt-stock being loose wont help matters either, use some Accra glass and bed the stock if tightening the screw does not help.

[Old Savage]

If the stock moves that is a problem.

[J Miller]

Fix the stock problem then try again.
Realize that lever action rifles are not bolt guns. They do not always respond to the same bench techniques that work with rifles with one piece stocks.

When you retest use a known quality factory ammo. The traditional load for the 44 mag is a 240gr jacketed bullet at around 1200 or so fps. I always use a traditional load when trying to diagnose problems. It eliminates variables.

Joe

[AJMD429]

If the stock moves that is a problem.

Agreed.

I know that "scopes on leverguns" is a no-no for some, and I've removed more scopes than I have left them on, but for eyes over 50 years old, nothing is as good as a scope for precision shooting (or low-light situations).

Even with a gun I definitely intend to have scopeless, if at all possible (and sometimes it isn't possible) I try to get a scope on the gun for some bench time. THAT way, I can see what the GUN's potential is, without all the variables of sight types, etc.. On my Puma 92's, I've had to use those "side-mounts" which I don't really like, but they've helped me sort out which guns are VERY accurate, vs. just plain accurate, vs. not too accurate.

I agree with using standard factory fodder for that phase of a gun's evalutation, because you just want to find out a rough idea of it's potential. The ones that aren't very accurate you can push further if you want through handload development, but only if that is really needed for your intended use of that firearm.

I have one 1894 that will often give me 1-1/2" groups, and another that will do more like 4" - both using a 36x scope. Since with their peep sights, I'll get maybe 6" and 9" with them, and I want to scope one and have one with peeps, I will of course scope the more accurate one, but with say a 4x scope. When I put that more appropriate-size-for-the-gun scope on the gun, I will at least know it COULD get 1-1/2" groups if I do my part. Probably with the 4x, I will shoot more like 4" groups, which is fine, but if I'd used that one for the testing instead of the ungainly 36x'er, the difference in guns wouldn't have been as accurate.

[Mich Hunter]

Are you shooting with the original rear sight?? If so you might want to look into a peep sight for the rear. That had helped some folks dramatically. Look for a Skinner or Lyman. Might just make those groups tighter

[mikld]

Do you know your rifle's bore size? Slugging the barrel is necessary to shooting accurate lead boolits. My only .44 long gun is a Puma, and it wouldn't shoot well until I sized my boolits to match the bore. That is IF yer shootin' lead!

[Alan Wood]

Thank you all for the tips. I don't reload and mostly shoot CCI Blazer through this. So bore size is probably not the issue here unless they went way way over I think. Sounds like this is probably the rear stock. Wonder if I should just replace it with one of the ramline composite one. I have been thinking of doing that anyway. Either way I will fix the rear stock problem, check the sights to make sure they aren't drifting, and then try with some ones 240 grain jacketed bullets. Probably at 50 as sugested.

If that doesn't fix it I will change sights. Not sure if it will be a peep sight or one of the hollographic red dot sights.

Alan Wood

[Hobie]

Once everything quits moving around on its own you'll tighten up those groups considerably. All that uncontrolled movement is simply problematic. As said, the first thing is to glass bed that butt stock.

If you can, and I understand about ammo availability, get some Remington 240 gr. SJHP (semi-jacketed hollow point) ammo. It is all you need and in my experience it may not be the best but it is consistently good from good guns and it won't be the ammo that's a problem.

Not to be critical of you, but I think that barring eyesight problems people SHOULD be able to shoot open sights. Unless they are damaged most any open sight is capable of giving one accurate aiming at least enough to stay on paper. A receiver sight should improve that due to increased sight radius as much as anything else.

[Alan Wood]

Hobie,
I completely agree about the open sights should be at least on paper accurate at 100. That is what has me so frustrated with this rifle. First things first though I will fix the stock issue then see were it stands then.

[J Miller]

Alan,

Before you alter any part of that gun, fix what ails it. If the stock is moving around your groups will suffer.
A mindset has developed over the years that the first thing to do with a new or new to your gun is fix, alter, modify, custom, or tune it. I think this is fostered by the internet.
Way to many know it alls that think spring kits, tune ups, fancy sights or scopes are needed on every gun that comes off the assembly line. Many gunsmiths feed this mindset with their "package" deals. Its darn hard to find a general practitioner gunsmith any more. Most of them now specialize and will only work on your gun if you will blindly accept what they think your gun needs. To me it's out of hand.

Don't spend a dime on that rifle, other than to buy some Acu-glass stock bedding epoxy. Fix the stock and then try it with the factory ammo. Like I and Hobie said, at that point the ammo is not the problem.

One more thing. I'm 56, almost 57 and last weekend I was banging the 200 yard ram with my Marlin 1894 Cowboy in .45 Colt using standard pressure ammo and the original iron sights. If I can do that the least you can do is give yours a try.

Joe

PS: I was typing as you posted. Give us a good report when you can.

[Alan Wood]

Joe,
that is my plan at this point. Thank you very much. Now to get the acu-glass bedding kit.
Alan Wood

[uncowboy]

Alan, If you are haveing problems after glassing the stock. Try slugging your bbl and feeling for tight spots. I have found tight spots where the dovetails are on the bbl on 2 winchesters.Make sure that the bbl band is not binding and moving bullet impact. These are more things to ck. Firelapping might be in order? J.Michael

[Alan Wood]

Alan, If you are haveing problems after glassing the stock. Try slugging your bbl and feeling for tight spots. I have found tight spots where the dovetails are on the bbl on 2 winchesters.Make sure that the bbl band is not binding and moving bullet impact. These are more things to ck. Firelapping might be in order? J.Michael

Thank you for the tips.
Alan Wood

[Travis Morgan]

Alan, after you get tired of trying to find Acu-glass, search for ACRA-glass. That's the correct name; I forget which acra-glass formula you need for this application.

[handirifle]

My FIRST suggestion, is to move the target up to 50yds then fix the stock, and try again. If YOUR shooting sucks at 50 it will be horrible at 100. If you group decent at 50 than a big part of it is you. Not being mean about it, but at 56 my own eyes are not real swift with irons, never have been for that matter.

I can shoot three shots touching at 50yds with my '94 Big Bore (open sights), but at 100, my groups open to about 5" or so. I KNOW it's not the rifle.

I have learned to always test a new rifle or scope at 50 or closer, first, than move back. saves me a LOT of ammo

[Travis Morgan]

Some shooters simply have trouble relating the sights to the target beyond close distances; generally, this has to do with a vision problem.

[Noah Zark]

If you repair the stock fit and try factory ammo and still have grouping problems, you might want to try removing the magazine tube and forend and firing that 94AE as a "single shot" from a benchrest to determine what its accuracy potential really is.

Chances are, it will group just fine without all the stuff hanging off the barrel. You may have to bump the sights to make the POI in line with the POA, but the group should be pretty tight.

Then start adding the parts back on, but leave the screws slightly loose and re-shoot from the bench. The group size will likely grow a bit, but still be reasonable -- like 2" - 3" or so. If it is, then make certain the mag tube is aligned directly below the barrel -- not cocked to one side or the other -- and snug up the screws a bit more but do NOT overtighten.

I have a 94BB in 375 that out of the box patterned worse than a shotgun. I stripped it down to a "single shot" and was amazed that it was grouping 1.5" with factory 220 gr ammo. I carefully added the magazine and forend parts and saw that if I tightened the magazine cap screw tight against the barrel, the end of the mag tube torques over to one side. The recess in the underside of the barrel was drilled off-center. I straightened that recess with a tiny Dremel stone bit and slightly deepened it, and trimmed the mag cap screw so that when tight it only entered that barrel recess and didn't touch the barrel. Then I made sure the mag tube was centered and tightened the band screw. When I fired the assembled 94BB from the bench, the groups had grown to 2.00" to 2.25", but NOTHING like the 9" to 14" prior to the fixes.

Not saying your gun has the same issue; I'm just relating the general "things to do" with a lever that's patterning instead of grouping, and the muzzle crown is undamaged.

Best of luck,

Noah

[jlchucker]

I bought a Trapper version 94 in 1988, angle-eject but just before they started putting button safeties on them. I mainly shoot handloads in it. I'm now 65, and other than putting a Williams FP receiver sight and ivory bead front sight on this piece I've never messed with the sights. It shoots jacketed and cast bullets equally well, with a preference to the lighter, 215 gr cast. I wear bifocals these days, but can still hit clay pigeon fragments that are laying on the hundred yard berm at my gun club with it. I use a 240 grain Winchester HSP jacketed bullet for deer hunting, but the same 215 gr cast bullet would probably work just as well. My particular rifle, though, for some reason, hates Remington 240 grain flatpoints though. I've never figured out why. Others have posted that you should fix your loose stock and try shooting groups at 50 yards, with your existing sights or with a receiver sight. I agree with that, but will go one further. Try from a solid bench rest at 25 yards first, then move back. You should be able to see as well as you need to at 25 yards to get a really tight group--providing nothing else is wrong with the gun.

By the way--I'm not impressed at all with Blazer factory ammo when used in a pistol-caliber rifle like yours. 3miller suggests known factory ammo. I recommend Remington or Winchester for starters, since you don't handload--and start with jacketed bullets, too. If you get a decent group at 25 yd you should get a decent one at 50. At 100, I wouldn't worry about group sizes--until after you're satisfied that you can regularly hit sodapop or beer cans without missing at that distance. Then go for groups if you want to, but don't expect the same kind of groups that you'd get with a scoped boltgun-at least not until after you take up handloading.

[Griff]

What everyone else said, and might I add, read: Accurizing the Lever Action Rifle by Paco Kelly. Oh and off-topic... can we make the link under the logo go to http://www.leverguns.com/ ? Or is there a link from the forum to there I don't know about?

[Nath]

Hmm, my 30/30ae was a late one and I had poor accuracy problems too with out the loose stock!
Tried everything and never did get to the bottom of it.
Pacos 94 tuning mods, scores of different loads, trigger work, different reloading dies and different sight systems.
I never did do a chamber cast but I'd swear it had an eccentric chamber to bore!!
The brass case's came out looking odd on one side of the neck!

The ae with a cross bolt safty I had years ago was extremely accurate and I loath the day I traded it for a 336

Could you pack that stock with paper to eliminate it from your enquiry?

Nath.

[timkelley]

Midway and Brownells (also others) sell the Williams 5D-94SE Receiver Sight for about $35.00. I have never been very good with a standard open sight on any rifle but the Williams Sight helps me a lot. The above sight fits the rear scope mount holes already on your 94AE.

[Alan Wood]

Thank you for the tips gentlemen. I know that this carbine is not going to deliver scoped bolt accuracy but right now I am not getting usable accuracy out of it. Definately sounds like the place to start is bedding the rear stock.
Alan Wood