Adjusting Windage On Fixed Sight Vaquero

[Adobe Walls]

Howdy,

It appears that my New Vaquero .45 is determined to consistently print left of center @ 25 yards with everything I've stuffed in it to date. Now elevation is pretty much correct with a 250/255 grain bullet and 9-9.5 grains of Unique, but the windage is just enough to gripe about. I know that you can bend front sights a bit to zero, but other than that, what's the next option? I would prefer this gun not look "Bubbad", dropped, or "boogered" after I get done zeroing it. It WAS however bought as a using field gun and it really does need to get centered with an appropriate do all field load. I'm still considering trying the RCBS 270 SAA mould and running straight wheelweights. Will that pill print significantly different than the lighter 250's? I've read a lot of good things about that particular bullet along with some of the LBT type WFN's, but haven't tried anything other than the SWC's and figured that a SWC of 250-280 @ 900-1000 FPS was all I would ever need in the lower 48. Anyone been down this road?AW

[J Miller]

I've got several revolvers chambered for the .45 Colt. Two with adjustable and one with fixed sights. All of them shoot very close to the same point at 25 YDS with every thing from 250 to 270gr bullets from 8 to 9grs of Unique. They don't vary enough in elevation to even tweek the rear sight screw.
As for the windage I totally agree with you, the gun must shoot centered with the front sight centered in the rear notch.

I have read a number of posts over on The Ruger Forum where owners of Vaqueros have attempted to bend their front sights and had them snap off. From what they say, the blades are a bit brittle. I've never had a Vaquero so I can't say from experience. What I'd suggest is carefully turning the barrel to index the front sight. If it's only off a little bit it shouldn't take much indexing to get it printing right.

A trip to Ruger will get it adjusted dead on, or a trip to a good gunsmith will too.

Joe

[kimwcook]

I can't address the Vaquero's, but with Colt SAA's one generally turns the barrel a little tighter which turns the front sight to the left and so it moves the barrel a little to the right. Hence, your generally put on target. Now if I didn't want to try that I'd get a hold of a good smith and have him put a dove tail front sight on and there ya go. I like the looks of a dovetailed front sight anyway.

[JReed]

Another way is to gently use a small flat file and use it on the inside right hand side of the rear notch. By opening up the rear site to the right it will cause you to aim right to center the front blade.

[L_Kilkenny]

The blades are VERY brittle cast. I swear it takes about 1/10th of a lbs to break em. Don't ask how I know

You have to get them into a barrel vise and turn/rotate the barrel the direction the gun is shooting. I'll let you know how it goes after I get mine fixed

[EdinCT]

I hate to admit it but here goes, I have a 44 bisley vaquero that shot about 3 inches left of center at 20 yards and was told that it was considered within acceptable tolerance. It wasn't for me so I took a set of hard wood blocks and drilled a hole that was the same size as my barrel. I needed to tighten the barrel and could not. I could of paid a smith to pull the barrel and cut the shoulder so the barrel could be turned in a little and check that the cylinder gap would be within tolerance.
I took a brass drift and gave the sight the sight a rap to the left, it did not break, I shot it and gave it one more rap and its on at 75 yards now and the front sight doesn't lean to the left too much. I thought if it didn't hit POA it wasn't much good any way and if I had to go to the smith I would have him resolder the sight.

[Little Doc]

what jreed said.
ld

[pokey]

i've got a magazine article about a fellow that
put his barrels in a several ton press and bent
the BARREL slightly the bring to point of aim.
he had made up some aluminum blocks to
guide and keep from marring the finish.
had done several different calibers and
lengths, said he did not like the look of
a crooked front sight when the barrel was
turned

[horsesoldier03]

i've got a magazine article about a fellow that
put his barrels in a several ton press and bent
the BARREL slightly the bring to point of aim.
he had made up some aluminum blocks to
guide and keep from marring the finish.
had done several different calibers and
lengths, said he did not like the look of
a crooked front sight when the barrel was
turned

Not sure a bent barrel would be much more attractive!

Cant say that I would like to look at bent sights but I would hate looking down my barrel and know that it wasnt centered. I guess if it shoots good you can forgive somethings. Personally I would take it to a good gunsmith and find out my options. If I couldnt get it the way I would like it, I would probably trade it off and put the funds towards something that was more to my likings. Prefably a COLT!!!

[BenT]

One of my SAA uberti's shot to the left. I stuck the front blade in a vise between 2 pieces of cardboard and used the pistol grip to tweek the front sight a little . Shot it and tweeked it again , now it shoots POA.

[okdee]

I have had just about every Single Action pistol, that I own, that has fixed front and rear sights, and was not shooting deadon at a distance, bent by Alan Harton of Single Action Services in Houston Texas. I have set down with him on most of them and watched as he used a press with blocks to EVER SO SLIGHTLY bend the barrel to center the shot. It is just like taking down the front sight with a file......you do it in small increments.
It does not take much bend in a barrel to change the point of impact. You would not be able to see the bend with the human eye.

Basically what I do is, get the load that I want to use in that particular pistol, and should it be shooting high or low or left or right, I take it to Alan. I bring along about 50 rounds of the select load for that pistol. He can do it himself, but I live not too far and usually get to go with him to the range. I shoot 3 rounds at a pre-determined distance like 25 feet. If it is perfect as far as windage is concerned, but way too low. Alan takes it to the press and blocks the barrel in and gently, but firmly applys pressure, in a certain location that bends the barrel in the direction to raise the point of impact. Barrels have a wonderfull ability to bend and snap back in place. Alan is a machinest and is basically a metallurgy expert. This is not for someone to do willy-nilly, it takes a practiced eye and touch and someone that is very good at it. I believe Alan is very good at it. Anyway, once he bends it the first time, I sit back down with the pistol and shoot 3 more rounds, and see if it improves the accuracy. We do this until I am happy with the final results.

The wonderful thing about bending the barrel is, you do not bend or file the front sight! How many pistols have you seen that were filed down or bent on the sale rack? A person cannot see the bend in a barrel, it is so small you cannot perceive it.

If you are serious, contact Alan Harton of Single Action Service in Houston, Texas. He can speak with you and tell you exactly what he does to perform this process.

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee

[kimwcook]

Alan Harton will definitely not hurt your pistol. He's getting quite the custom following. There's a number of guys on here now that have personal experience with his work. I was wondering what Steve thought about bending a barrel.

[O.S.O.K.]

When I shot CAS, I absolutely demanded that my two Vaqueros in 45 Colt shoot to point of aim with my select load. I shot the pistols to determin the best grouping for the load - turned out to be 7 grains of W231 with 250 gr rnfp laser cast bullet - was best on average for both. About 800 fps. This load is considered too hot (but not ilegal by CAS rules) by most competitors nowadays.

What I did is follow Mike Venturino's advice (from Handloader) - which is to turn the barrel to move the front sight right/left.

I used some hardwood blocks with a hole drilled just smaller than the barrel diameter, applied some resin. Removed the cylinder from the frame and the extractor shroud/extractor from the barrel and put the barrel into the blocks and into a vice or shop press. Using a hickory hammer handle (or similar) I placed that into the frame window and tweeked the barrel to the left (mine were both shooting left).

Before you do all of the above, place witness marks on the frame and barrel where they'll be coverd by the extractor shroud on the bottom of the barrel - this will allow you to see how much you're moving the barrel.

It only takes a very minute amount of movement to move the poi several inches - this will not usualy affect barrel gap any appreciable amount but it wouldn't hurt to check with a feeler guage regardless.

That's what I did with both of my Vaqueros and they both shoot that load to point of aim. I also had to remove some material off of the top of the front sight blades as it was shooting too low with that load.

I would refrain from bending the front sight. I would also refrain from filing the rear sight notch.

[J Miller]

When I had Steve Young aka Nate Kiowa Jones rebuild my IJ, I told him to put a taller front sight on it because all the Ubertis I had in the past shot way high. He pulled a sight out of his parts box and soldered it in. Basically a S.W.A.G.. When I got it I looked at it real good I thought it was tilted. That would drive me nuts. But because it's a tapered front sight in a square rear notch it looks crooked from any direction.
The good part is, if you center the top of the sight in the notch IJ shoots dead on at 25 yards.

Tweeking and bending barrels is a job for a professional, or at least someone who knows a lot more than I do. With this old shooter we got lucky.

I still say take it or send it to a qualified gunsmith or the factory.

Joe

[JustaJeepGuy]

If I couldnt get it the way I would like it, I would probably trade it off and put the funds towards something that was more to my likings. Prefably a COLT!!!

The referenced article was in either Handguns 2000 (the Krause publication) or Gun Digest 2000 (?). The writer had gotten tired of his brand-new COLTS needing their sights tweaked, so he started bending the barrels. [I brought this article up several months ago, and some posters seemed to take umbrage at the suggestion that bending a barrel might work. I'm glad okdee knows someone who knows it will work]

[Pisgah]

Much good advice has been given. Now, I want to mention one thing.

I would bet that 75% of the fixed-sight handguns that don't shoot to center -- talking windage, here, because, of course, there all on for elevation with any load, at some range -- don't need to be bent, filed, or twisted. The problem lies with the shooter.

I am a prime example. For many years, I simply had the dickens of a time finding any fixed-sight handgun that would shoot center. When finally the light began to dawn, I realized that almost all of them tended to shoot low-left for me -- even from a rest. But then one day my best buddy picked up my Model 10 while we were at the range and began shooting nice. tight, well-centered groups with it. Could the problem be ME???

I went home and closely examined all of my adjustable-sight revolvers. By golly, all those rear sights were adjusted high and way over to the right. Now I started to get serious. Shooting my Model 10 again, I began trying to modify my hold. By golly, I saw improvement. Shortly afterward, I added a Tyler T-grip and, lo and behold, the problem went away altogether. This proved such a boon to my shooting that I eventually put service grips and T-grips on every DA fixed-sight gun I own. With single actions, I discovered that my main mistake had been holding too tightly. When I learned a firm, but relaxed, grip (even with the heavy kickers) my offcenter shots went away.

Don't get me wrong -- there are handguns out there that need to be fixed. But I really believe that most of the time we"fix" a gun's sight by bending, whacking, filing, etc., all we are really doing is adjusting the gun to cancel out our mistakes and bad habits, and thereby sometimes messing it up for whoever else might shoot it.

[madman4570]

One option you might try is what I am going to do this month.
Send you gun to BOB MUNDEN ,you know the world champ Bob Munden.

He does all the work himself and he is extremely reasonable.
I am having him do option 1 also honing the forcing cone and personally adjusting/sighting in my gun(1994 SS .45 Vaquero)For
sighting in the gun he uses his barrel vise and hand fits the
sights to shoot dead on. he gets $60 for this as an added option.
Of course I am having the option 1 done so I think you get a deal
for the sight in job.Call him to see!
Anyway how cool is it to have the gun reworked by him,I am having
him engrave his signature in the grips.
I am telling you, his prices are really good.I love watching him on
the outdoor network, he is somthing!! Thats my BD present from the wife!!!!!!!!

[pokey]

good call jeep guy,gun digest 2000 it was.
todd lofgren wrote it and mentioned larry
mears out of redding calif. as suggesting the
technique. he shows 5 colts he adjusted this
way. i might try it on a 500$ vaquero, but i
might not have the guts to stick a 1500$ colt
under the press.

[TX Gun Runner]

I have 7 Vaquero's and they all shoot POA . Before you start bending , filing . hammering or what ever . Change your grip on the gun , I found the little finger and thumb will control the POA in all guns . The little finger under the grip frame works for me , it keeps the gun from rolling in my hand .

[AmBraCol]

As mentioned, try shifting your grip a bit and see what happens. On my Vaquero I took it by Shapel's in Boise, ID and had their 'smith adjust it for me. It now shoots to point of aim. My current carry gun is a Llama Cassidy in 38 spl. I"ve got a line on a guy who I hope will be able to install the ramp/patridge front site combo I have. It's just a matter of time and $$$...

[madman4570]

INTERESTING STUFF !!!!!!!

[okdee]

Weee Doggies! Lots of great facts!

To quote a great target shooter - (although not exactly) " Trigger Control and sight picture are paramount! When you have the sight picture close to your mark, while gently pulling the trigger straight back, you will not know when the shot goes off. It will be a expected surprise." This will usually result in a very accurate shot!

Great insite all around!

Oklahoma Dee

[mergus]

Not that I have any experience in these matters, but I remember reading once where a guy who worked for Colt, named Fitz, worked the armoror's tent at Camp Perry and used to adjust the POI of fixed sight Colt DA revolvers by looking at the target and determining what was need in the way of adjustment and then rapping the muzzle of the gun against the table. He would rap the gun once and send the gun and owner out to try it and if needed, he's rap it again to finish fine tuning the POI.

Mergus

[madman4570]

Mergus,
Are you serious? smacking the gun against a table for sight-in.
Holly cow, I never heard of that one!!!!
It seems that would not be a suitable/stable fix because after
shooting it awhile I would think the gun might not hold on target
due to even just the repeated recoil force,compared to a more
permanent fix like sight filing of the fixed sights or use of a barrel vise.

Regards!

[PaulB]

This is indeed very interesting.

I have a fixed sight Freedom Arms 97 which shoots VERY far low and left. I took it to the FA factory to get adjusted but it was only improved slightly. I also have other revolvers, some (but not all) of which have the rear sight very far to the right. Anyway, I haven't shot the FA much because I'm so disappointed at its point of aim, but maybe I will experiment some more with changing the grip. I did try shooting left-handed once, and found it still shot low and left.

One thing I don't like about the FA97 grip is that it is too skinny on top. I have tried the Ruger Bisley grip (on a Linebaugh gun) and really like that much better.

I know FA now offers a dovetail front sight. If my experiments fail, I may go that route.

[madman4570]

PaulB,
That left and far low,it shoots that way when even using a pistol bench rest?
How does it shoot when a couple other competent shooters try it?
Not saying you are not, and you tried the grip changes like stated above?

Man those freedom arms are the cream of the crop.
If its shooting that way for everyone and freedom arms cant/wont make it right/replace it or somthing, I would give Bob Munden a call and see what he has to say.He might want you to send him it for eval.

If that was my gun, I for sure would spend a little on that top of the
line gun.I would not sell it to someone else because you will not get
what the gun is worth.That would bug me so much I would have to
get that straightened out!

[Adobe Walls]

Howdy

Thanks for all the suggestions. Especially the one about front sights being brittle. That would be a real aggravation to bust the front sight off. I've often wondered about how much my grip was affecting the POI. I once had a Colt SA .22 that shot way off if I shot it right handed with a two fisted grip, and shot "on" if I shot one handed with my left hand! I'll probably shoot this New Vaquero some more before I get too ambitious tinkering with it. I still want to try that RCBS 270 SAA mould and some wheel weights. My plan for this six shooter is to have one "mountain" or "field" gun that will take care of anything I'm likely to stumble across between the Ozarks and the Rocky Mountains. The only other candidates for such a gun(in my mind) would be one of the S&W N frame mountain guns, and they are priced so high that I could nearly own a pair of Rugers for the same money. I became smitten with the New Vaquero after having wrapped my hand around one back in December. I really like the smaller grip. Unfortunately there is another Ruger New Vaquero singing a siren song and calling my name too.... The New Vaquero Montado. I prefer blue guns, but that cute little stainless six shooter would carry like an absolute dream in a good high ride holster, and that 3 3/4" barrel wouldn't really hurt a decent .45 Colt load all that much at the ranges that getting bit or scratched might become an issue. I think that's the beauty of a .45; even if it slows down a bit, it still keeps right on drilling and choppin' a .45 caliber hole.AW

[TX Gun Runner]

I screw the one on my sheriff model I built . I glue it on and test fired it to make sure it was clocked correctly before I drilled and tapped it .

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Much good advice has been given. Now, I want to mention one thing.

I would bet that 75% of the fixed-sight handguns that don't shoot to center -- talking windage, here, because, of course, there all on for elevation with any load, at some range -- don't need to be bent, filed, or twisted. The problem lies with the shooter.

I am a prime example. For many years, I simply had the dickens of a time finding any fixed-sight handgun that would shoot center. When finally the light began to dawn, I realized that almost all of them tended to shoot low-left for me -- even from a rest. But then one day my best buddy picked up my Model 10 while we were at the range and began shooting nice. tight, well-centered groups with it. Could the problem be ME???

I went home and closely examined all of my adjustable-sight revolvers. By golly, all those rear sights were adjusted high and way over to the right. Now I started to get serious. Shooting my Model 10 again, I began trying to modify my hold. By golly, I saw improvement. Shortly afterward, I added a Tyler T-grip and, lo and behold, the problem went away altogether. This proved such a boon to my shooting that I eventually put service grips and T-grips on every DA fixed-sight gun I own. With single actions, I discovered that my main mistake had been holding too tightly. When I learned a firm, but relaxed, grip (even with the heavy kickers) my offcenter shots went away.

Don't get me wrong -- there are handguns out there that need to be fixed. But I really believe that most of the time we"fix" a gun's sight by bending, whacking, filing, etc., all we are really doing is adjusting the gun to cancel out our mistakes and bad habits, and thereby sometimes messing it up for whoever else might shoot it.

Good stuff,
I was reluctant to get into this but now that you have brought it up here's my thoughts. When this subject comes up 9 time out of 10 it's a low left problem. This is because low left POI's are one of the most common right handed shooter induced problems. i know one well known SAA smith that send the guns out with the front sights turned slightly to the left and slightly filed just to compensate.


Here is a good sight to study if you want to be a top notch pistolero.

Error Analysis and Correction Army Marksmanship Unit
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm

PaulB,
That left and far low,it shoots that way when even using a pistol bench rest?
How does it shoot when a couple other competent shooters try it?
Not saying you are not, and you tried the grip changes like stated above?

Man those freedom arms are the cream of the crop.
If its shooting that way for everyone and freedom arms cant/wont make it right/replace it or somthing, I would give Bob Munden a call and see what he has to say.He might want you to send him it for eval.

If that was my gun, I for sure would spend a little on that top of the
line gun.I would not sell it to someone else because you will not get
what the gun is worth.That would bug me so much I would have to
get that straightened out!

Yes, even with a good rest. A good rest is only part of the equation. This is how I do it if I don't have a machine rest handy. First is target selection. I setup a target at 15 to 12 yds. This will depend on how you plan to use the gun. For me and my eyes, fix sighted SAA's beyond 25 yds is not an option. The target is an inverted "T" on freezer paper made using black electrical tape. The idea is to set the "T's" horizontal line on top the rear site and center the front sight with the vertical line. The objective is for the group to hit POI at the juncture of the two lines. Nex is the rest. I actually rest the front of the lower frame on the soft rest. Some folks will tell you to just rest your hands but not the gun. I've tried it both ways and have found little or no difference.
What I have found that makes a big difference is this. When shooting a rifle you have a much steadier platform and even a cheek weld on the stock to steady your head. I try to do the same thing by setting up near a post or use an ammo can or something that I can rest my head against. If your head can move it's no different than your sights moving. Now shoot a 5 or 6 shot group using the tips above.
You might even shoot 6 different target using only one chamber to see just what chambers group the best, mark the worst chamber and load only five with the hammer down on the empty chamber.

[madman4570]

SWEET GUN!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great info!!!

[2571]

pistol to a bad or even a mediocre gunsmith?

I hear that "good gunsmith" advice on every guns site I visit.

Kinda like asking the greengrocer to pick you a 'mediocre' watermelon instead of a good one.

[PaulB]

That left and far low,it shoots that way when even using a pistol bench rest?

I don't have a pistol bench rest. I generally lay my forearms and wrists on a raised flat surface, with the gun supported only by my hands. I can get pretty small groups this way, always low and left.

I must say, the sights on this gun are very poor. The front is bright stainless with horizontal striations, the back a very small notch. Everything hard to see. However I think they are not why the shots always go low and left. I may paint them or use a magic marker. Then I will have even smaller groups, low and left.

I did try a different grip on the gun yesterday, lower and with my pinkie under the grip. That did seem to bring it toward the center but still quite low (I know the vertical depends on the load, and may require filing the sight). I will have to experiment some more.

Recoil is heavy with this gun, as it is only about 35 oz. I wanted it for a carry gun in bear country, but it is just not the gun for that. My Smith 629 is much better for this. I will go to light loads from now on. I'm now wishing I had gotten any caliber but .45LC in this gun. Any one want to trade?

How does it shoot when a couple other competent shooters try it?

Don't know yet. Last guy I tried it on couldn't even hit the paper.

Here is my FA97 .45LC: