fancy Winchesters

[KWK]

When did Winchester start offering options on their leverguns such as pistol grips and half magazines? In looking at the collection at RareWinchesters.com and at what's offered by Uberti in their replicas, it appears to have been early in the production of the 1873 model. Before that, engraving, plating, and sights seem to have been the options -- beyond carbine vs. rifle.

[gamekeeper]

I've seen some very fancy engraved 1866 models. Not sure what year they were manufactured.

[Pete44ru]

AFAIK, pistol gripped stocks started as an option in the 1878 catalog, listed as "EXTRAS" for the models 66, 73, & 76 @ $15 - as published in Wilson's book on pp.42
There are no magazine options on that list.

However, I know the model 76 was available sometime later with a button mag, as Wilson has a pic of one, also in his book - on pp.69
.

[KWK]

I have stored on my PC a picture of a half-magazine 76; I don't know what year it was made. It's a handsome gun. The fellows at RareWinchesters have a half-mag 73, s/n 27 from 1873; it too is rather attractive (to my eye).

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The Henry rifle, the direct ancester of the Winchester, was not available in many options. You pretty much got one barrel length and that was it. Just about the only options available on the Henry were sling swivels, silver plating, gold plating, and engraving. That was it. They all had 24" barrels, none were made with pistol grips, the design discouraged shorter magazines since the barrel and magazine were machined from one bar of steel. A few early Henrys were made with iron frames, but the majority had brass (actually bronze) frames.

Oliver Winchester, who was the main mover and shaker behind the Henry rifle, received many requests for customizations to the Henry, but between trying to keep the company afloat, and trying to maintain a cash flow, he never paid much attention to these requests and few of them materialized.

But when he began producing what eventually became known as the Winchester Model 1866, Winchester started making different options available. To start off with, the '66 was available in three different versions; carbine, rifle, and musket. Rifles came standard with a 24" octagon barrel, carbines came standard with a round 20" barrel, and muskets came with a round 27" barrel. In addition to barrel lengths, these 3 different variations sported different types of stocks and different methods of attaching the forearm to the barrel. Note, that length alone did not define a carbine or a rifle. Carbines and rifles had very different stocks, that is what defined them. The musket configuration was basically an over grown carbine with the fore end extending most of the way to the muzzle.

After serial number 100,000 (1872) the Model 1866 became available in just about any barrel length one wanted. Half magazines were first offered in 1871. I have not come across any examples of Model 1866 Winchesters with a pistol grip. Madis says that checkering and special stock dimensions were offered, but they were rare. Muskets were mostly produced for foreign military sales and many of them had provisions for bayonetes.

When the Model 1873 came out, most of the options of the '66 were continued, with the addition of half round/half octagon barrels, and pistol grips.

P.S. As time went on, the Model 1873 design evolved into a First Model, Second Model, and Third Model, distinguished by how the dust cover was attached. All Uberti replicas of the 1873 are copies of the Third Model, with the dust cover riding on an integral rib machined onto the top of the frame. The Model 1866 had four separate models, all distinguished by subtle changes in the shape of the frame. I do not know off hand which model Uberti chose to copy.

[KWK]

Thank you, Driftwood. I went looking for books by the Madis you mentioned, and I see he has been quite prolific. Is there one of his books that best shows the many variations? My local library has been very good at getting just about any book I request.

I've been wanting to get a toggle action and have an itch do something "different" while staying within the range of options Winchester did. I like the looks of the long barreled 73 Uberti has, but it will be rather nose heavy -- a round barrel and shorter magazine could help in that respect.

Regarding Henry's, an article at RareWinchesters.com says there is evidence a few were shipped with 19" barrels, and the factory would trim one if it was sent back. Ah, this article mentions The Winchester Book, which I find is by Madis, and perhaps this is the book to look for?

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

George Madis wrote The Winchester Book, which is often considered the definitive work on Winchesters. 640 pages and 1800 photos. It ain't cheap, but it is THE book. I have a copy of The Winchester Handbook, also written by Madis. About 280 pages. Not as many photos either, but still a good little reference book. You can find both of these books on Amazon.

The definitive work on the Henry rifle is The Historic Henry Rifle, by Wiley Sword. A paperback book of 102 pages and a good collection of B&W photos. What makes Sword's book really good is the amount of research he did into Oliver Winchester's correspondence for the entire time he was running the New Haven Arms Company, the producer of the Henry rilfe.

Regarding Henry Carbines, Sword goes into quite a bit of detail regarding Winchester's efforts to win a contract to supply the Union Army with Henrys. Winchester felt the key to government contracts was to produce a carbine that would be more useful to mounted troops than the 24" barreled standard rifle was. Fully loaded, the standard Henry weighed around ten pounds, not a very convenient firearm for mounted troops. A prototype Henry carbine was produced, and submitted to the Army for testing in January of 1864. There is a photo of this carbine in Sword's book. The specific barrel length is not mentioned, but it appears to be around 19 or 20 inches. This prototype carbine also differed from the standard Henry in that it had a tubular magazine slung underneath the barrel as opposed to the integral barrel machined from the same bar of steel as the barrel that was standard for the Henry. Winchester had already realized that making a separate magazine from a tube of rolled steel was much less expensive than machining a barrel and magazine all from one bar of steel. This prototype carbine was chambered for a new experimental cartridge, longer than the original 44 Henry cartridge and carrying a heavier bullet. When the Army tested the carbine, it was a dismal failure, the gun binding up with fouling after just a few shots. The Army rejected it. However Sword goes on to comment that it was the new experimental ammunition, not the gun itself that was the real failure. Had Winchester tested it properly, he would have discovered the problem and could have corrected it, but he was juggling several attempts at winning large contracts to keep the enterprise afloat, and did not give the carbine the attention it deserved. The Army tested the carbine a second time, and Sword believes it was the exact same gun that was resubmitted, and again it failed the test. By this time the Civil War was beginning to wind down, and Winchester had begun to realize he was not going to win a big wartime contract. According to Sword, that is about the extent of forays into a carbine that were done with Henrys. He makes no mention of guns being custom produced in different lengths.

Regarding various configurations of Uberti manufactured '73 replicas, Cimarron seems to have the best selection. The 30" barreled model looks nice, but frankly, I think that length barrel is a bit of overkill. My own '73 is the standard straight stocked, 24" octagon barreled model. I do not find it to be particularly nose heavy, but others might disagree. Mine is chambered for 44-40 and I shoot nothing but Black Powder through it. I have no difficulty with fouling because I use special bullets that carry an enormous amount of bullet lube. But I suspect with a 30" barrel even my bullets might run out of lube before they reached the muzzle and I might start having hard fouling build up for the last 6 inches or so.

By the way, my avatar is a photo of my 'iron framed' Henry. It is really steel, but it approximates what those few iron framed Henrys would have looked like. The steel frame is brilliantly case hardened, and it is also chambered for 44-40. I shoot nothing but Black Powder through my Henry too.

[KWK]

Driftwood, I'm grateful for the time you've spent in these replies.

30" is indeed overkill for such a short cartridge, but I do like long barrels. It ought to be a quiet shooter! Since I shoot mostly jacketed, I wouldn't have to worry about lube running out -- not that it occurred to me this could be a problem. While the single shots of the era often ran 30", their longer bullets had several grease grooves.

Sword's book is on my list to bother the librarians for. I'm currently reading another book they fetched for me, Sellers' book Sharps Firearms.

The Henry is a very tempting choice for a toggle action, if for no other reason than it was the first truly successful one. I have admired the photos of the color case version at Uberti's Italy site. I've yet to handle a Henry; the dealer's nearby certainly don't stock them; perhaps I'll be lucky at this month's gun show. I've read a few comments about them being nose heavy, but I'll test that for myself.

[OJ]

Is one of these fancy enough ??





Winchester 94 30-30
or





Winchester 95 30-06
Both shoot even better than they look !!

[Jaguarundi]

OJ nice Rifles !I just picked up today a used Buffalo Bill Commemorative for $450 out the door.