OT question about face-to-face transfers

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Otto
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OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by Otto »

I was just over on the Politics forum reading a thread, and am a little confused.
Sorry, maybe I was unclear. Every gun I bought over 10 years a 1 day ago (even thought the FFL may have the records still) I sold 10 years ago and I no longer am required nor have the paperwork to whom I sold it to, so just try and find it.....
I see what you are saying, but if you sold a firearm, it will show on the NICS/FBI system, under the new owner. The only firearms that will not show, are the cash and carry instate transfers for longarms that are over 50 years old.
What are these guys talking about? I have always been under the impression that private sales were cash sales, no records necessary. Just like selling a used TV. Neither individual indicates his state of residence, so I don't know if that's a factor, but the context implies they are referring to federal law.
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oldmax
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by oldmax »

I think they are refering to FBI records as opposed to BTAF records. My belief is all transactions
made through an FFL are on file at the FBI, regardless of what the BTAF has done with them.
( Please, If I'm wrong, enlighten me. )

There is an effort to stop Cash/ Face to Face sales. As there are no records of these type transactions. Provided the seller does not keep one....

My opinion , The government WANTS EVERY GUN TRANSCATION IN A DATA BASE...
Sadly, I suspect that wil be the next big push for legislation.
flatnose
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by flatnose »

some info for you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473
Depending on which state you live in, you may be required to use a FFL for all, or just certain transfers. State to state transfers require going through a FFl dealer. Here in California, the only FFL exempt transactions are for muzzleloaders and non cartridge type blackpowder revolvers. A longarm sale between californian residents may be conducted without use of a FFL if the longarm is 50 years or older, excepting restricted arms. This type of transfer would apply to WW1 &2 rifles, leveractions etc etc.
These differing state laws can become confusing. The easiest thing would be for all states to have the same laws. If we all stuck to the constitution 2nd ammendment that would be easy. Each state has its own constitution. Why I do not know. I think the california constition does not include the right to bear arms.
All these differing state laws can become a big headache for the guys serving in the military when being posted to another state.
Pete44ru
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by Pete44ru »

Gun sales/buys/transfers CAN be like a game of musical chairs - only it's a game that can have possibly serious consequences.

Ya see, it's like this..................Someone, somewhere bought that gun ON PAPER from an FFL - who has to keep a copy of the transfer in his bound book forever.

When the Feds "trace" a gun, they start at the maker or importer, go to the distributor/wholesaler, the dealer, the first non-FFL buyer - and work their way down the line until they get to the guy that doesn't have the gun, or a record of where it went, and says......well, pardner, WE have a problem. :shock:

SO..................... The only FTF transfers by private (non-FFL) citizens, are the legal in-state transfers (both parties residents of the same state) OR the illegal transfers from a resident of one state directly to the resident of another state.
In the second example, both parties may be somewhat shielded, if the seller's name isn't attached to the gun's serial number anywhere - unless, of course, the buyer is an ATF undercover. :o

.
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Blaine
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by Blaine »

8) I don't know what you are talking about...I personally buy and sell every gun I have thru a gun shop and do the required checks and paperwork required, just like it was a new gun. I don't want to take the chance of having a "no paper" gun in my possession.
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Mike D.
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by Mike D. »

Many of us made FTF buys waaay back before any "laws' prevented such activity, and because of these purchases are in possession of "unregistered' firearms. OH MY!! What do we do? Not a darned thing, of course, so don't worry about it. It is a non-issue. :D
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by Tycer »

Mike D. wrote:Many of us made FTF buys waaay back before any "laws' prevented such activity, and because of these purchases are in possession of "unregistered' firearms. OH MY!! What do we do? Not a darned thing, of course, so don't worry about it. It is a non-issue. :D
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Jayhawker
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by Jayhawker »

flatnose wrote:......A longarm sale between californian residents may be conducted without use of a FFL if the longarm is 50 years or older, excepting restricted arms. This type of transfer would apply to WW1 &2 rifles, leveractions etc etc......
Actually, the buyer in this case would have to have a C&R FFL license to legally complete the transaction, in which case the transfer would be reflected in his bound book with the seller's information. I'm not sure of the CA laws regarding antiques (prior to 1899), but I'm pretty sure that's how it works for C&R items (more that 50 years old).
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Charles
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by Charles »

I can't speak for other states, but in Texas face to face sales must comply with state law regarding age, mental condition and so forth. However there are no record keeping requirments, nor are their any Federal requirments for face to face sales not requiring a FFL.
Otto
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by Otto »

You guys are losing me. Are you saying it is illegal for a resident of Ohio to sell, face-to-face, a firearm to a resident of West Virginia?
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flatnose
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by flatnose »

Jayhawker,
That is not correct. Private individuals within the state may do cash and carry without a FFL.
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by AmBraCol »

Otto wrote:You guys are losing me. Are you saying it is illegal for a resident of Ohio to sell, face-to-face, a firearm to a resident of West Virginia?
It depends on if you depend on the US Constitution (no infringement means no infringement) or on anti-constitutional regulations. Of course, if there's a problem, then just TRY to argue in favor of the more lenient 2nd Amendment over the meddling controls of the more recent regulations. In other words, the fed have determined since 1968 that any transfer of a long arm between individuals in different states MUST go through an FFL - the same with a handgun. You can buy a long arm from a dealer in a different state (in many cases - not all) but you CAN NOT do so without going through an FFL in your own state, no matter WHAT the 2nd Amendment says. I still don't understand what's so hard to understand about "shall not be infringed". These laws do nothing to change the way people think and act and bind only the law abiding. Criminals will continue to obtain weapons any way they can.
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by adirondakjack »

it all depends where ya are.

In NYS for example, I can sell a gun face to face to another NYS resident. For a long gun there is ZERO paperwork required. I just have to eyeball or ID that they are of age, and as long as I have no knowledge that they are a prohibited person, I'm good to go. It's on them to know they are OK to possess. For a HANDGUN I need to get the buyer to go to his county office and get me a "pickup ticket" showing he added the gun to his permit. In either case, NO FFL is needed. If it goes to another state, or I'm in BUSINESS selling guns, that's different.
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cjm135
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by cjm135 »

The writer of the posted thread was describing an end around process for record tracibility on the purchase of his older firearms when the "Gun Band" become the new law. From what I gather, there is a record keeping requirement that expires after ten years. So if the records are destroyed then the tracability is also. PUFF I have no guns.
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marlinman93
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by marlinman93 »

Otto wrote:You guys are losing me. Are you saying it is illegal for a resident of Ohio to sell, face-to-face, a firearm to a resident of West Virginia?
That is 100% correct! State laws may allow the sale or transfer of used guns between private parties, but Federal laws over ride this when it is across state lines. You can not transfer a gun (new or used) to a resident of another state without proper FFL papers, unless that gun is 1898 or older.
Some states require no paperwork betweeen private parties on used guns (like mine!) but the laws say you do have to know the buyer, or see his ID before making a sale. Of course Oregon also has the Gun Show Law, so that law requires a background check if the same sale was at a gun show and is a modern weapon.
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Jayhawker
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by Jayhawker »

flatnose wrote:Jayhawker,
That is not correct. Private individuals within the state may do cash and carry without a FFL.
Are you sure? Check out this link, bottom of page 37 which states:

The infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms between individuals - meaning five or
fewer sales per year of any number of handguns or irregular and occasional sales of other firearms
is allowed. However, such sales/transfers must be completed through a dealer licensed pursuant to
Penal Code section 12071.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by flatnose »

Jayhawker,
Thanks for the link.
Check out page 4 . Exemptions at the bottom of the page.
I wish they would simplify all this, and make it easier to understand. Ask a cop about the laws, or a gunshop, and they probably could not give a correct answer.
If you think CA firearm law is confusing, take a look at the ocean fishing regs. You will need the advice of an attorney before you take a fish out of the water.
JustaJeepGuy
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by JustaJeepGuy »

Just move from state to state every other year or so, and buy and sell guns FTF every time. You've done nothing illegal, and there's no more paper on anything. What's wrong with that? Nothing, except to Big Brother...that's why we should ALL do this, for 10 years or so, and see what Big Brother can do about it.
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Re: OT question about face-to-face transfers

Post by stretch »

I prefer to buy guns from a private individual with no paper.

In Maine, there is NO obligation to keep paperwork on private sales.

Why would one? Even if the FBI or BARF (sorry, BATF - but I thought the
typo was appropriate!) comes knocking, I've done nothing illegal.
Because no paperwork is required, and I don't have legal access to State
or Federal records to see if a buyer is a crook - I just have to eyeball him
and trust my luck.

The Feds are beginning to make some folks scared over nothing.

-Tom
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