Range Report on "Old Savage" and Load Data

[CowboyTutt]

Hello fellas. I had a chance to shoot my "new" Enfield named "Old Savage" over Christmas Break in SoCal. Old Savage from our forum came over to Jim Williamson's place to hang-out and B.S. for awhile but could not shoot with us later in the week. El Chivo made the trip out though. It was nice to see him again. The 3 of us had breakfast before going to the range for shooting.

At the range later, the rifle seemed to work well, but was shooting 6-8 inches to the right. I have a sight ajustment "screw driver" that Jim fabricated for me from an Allen wrench. It fits the strange screw head that releases pressure on the front sight and allows you to drift it. Unfortunately, we forgot to bring a socket to the range to use it. It was not a total loss. I was able to hit the steel targets at 200, 300 and 400 yards off hand after sighting in off the bench when I adjusted my aim and did my part. The trigger on this rifle is terrible but I will get that taken care of. I will probably go with an aftermarket ball bearing trigger that is a drop-in and not modify the stock trigger which is stamped with the Savage block "S".

Before I forget, I want to publicly thank KCSO for sending me a Savage marked bayonet that is in outstanding condition. He let me have it for a rediculously low price. Thanks KCSO!

Anyhow, my first attempt at loading for this cartridge was interesting. The data for a 10 shot string is as follows:

Remington case, 40 grains of Varget, CCI BR-2 primer, light crimp with Lee Factory Crimp die, Sierra 180 grain Pro-Hunter spitzer bullet. Special thanks to our own Jeremy Reed who knew the right bullet for the two-groove barrel. Apparently boat-tail bullets will not stabilize in these barrels.

2359
2368
2368
2372
2372
2372
2343
2372
2359
2355

AVE: 2364
ES: 29
SD: 9

What is neat is the 3 sequencial shot duplicate reading and another 2 shot duplicate. What was not so neat was that I was seeing a lot more primer flattening then I expected for a reletively low pressure cartridge. I was a full grain below the max in 3 manuals and 1.7 grains below a 4th manual.

I sent my friend Mic McPherson an email and I thought I would share with you the correspondance as loading for the 303 Brit has been of some discussion of late:

Dear Andy,

Excessive working headspace, nothing else. Just be careful not to overdo the resizing. If you can get by with neck sizing only, do so. The mushroomed primers will disappear. Primer blows out against bolt face, pressure builds and locks case body in chamber, pressure continues to build until case head is driven back against bolt while primer is still inflated -- primer is therefore forced to seat into pocket while it is bonded solidly to case (same thing bonding case to chamber), result is excessive primer cup material that has to go somewhere and it cannot seat back into the pocket so the face grows bigger. I have a factory 8mm Mauser load (30,000 psi or less) that has the flattest primer you have ever seen, it actually extends beyond the bevel!
BR2 is not a mild primer. For such a small charge of VarGet is it actually rather hot.
Mic
----- Original Message -----
From: cowboytutt
To: MicMcPherson
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: 303 Brit chronograph results

I looked at the primers again. They are surprisingly flat, more so than I would expect for a lower pressure cartridge. I'm wondering if the BR-2 is too mild a primer? The other possibility I'm wondering about is if the generous chamber has something to do with the primer flattening. The fire-formed case has the shoulder slightly moved forward and the case body taper somewhat blown-out. Could the lack of contact surfaces with the pre-fire-formed case and the chamber wall have something to do with this?

-Andy

Dear Andy,
You are kidding, of course! With this sort of consistency, I would be amazed to discover a better primer choice. However, see what the 205M does.
Mic

So I will try the same load in the fire-formed cases and see what happens. The rifle did "shoot to the sights" with this load out to 400 yards. I had already ordered up some Lee Collet Neck Sizing dies from Graff's.

I'm sorry to report that I did not take any pictures while at the range. I was having a little too much fun I guess! Jim shoots right handed and I'm a lefty, so we were shooting shoulder to shoulder off-hand. Sort of special to be able to do that with a friend.

I took some more pics of the Enfield at home in lieu of not taking pics at the range.

-Tutt

[J Miller]

Andy,

That is an excellent report on your Enfield. A comment and a question if you don't mind.

Comment A: Check around and see if you have a Snap-on Tool man in the area. Or go to their web site. See if they still sell tool number S6404A. This is some sort of break tool that looks like a screw driver with a quarter inch round shank that's flat on the end with a grove in it that is absolutely perfect for the front sight retaining screw on the Savage and Long Branch Enfields. I got mine years ago and will not part with it.

Comment B: My old Canadian made Long Branch has a two grove barrel that looks like 25" of rutted back roads. In years past I have shot it with Mk VIII ball ammo and it has performed very well. I've never heard that the two grove barrels would not stabilized the 174gr BT bullets.

Question: You mentioned "an aftermarket ball bearing trigger that is a drop-in". I've never heard of or seen one of those, where do you get them?

Great thread, now I'll go back and let the pics download.

Joe

[Old Savage]

Looks like you hit the nail on the head the first time with those reloads - did your homework.

[JReed]

Joe
many of the Savage 2 grove dont shoot the 174 boat tail well they patern more then group. After a lot of research I learned that a flat base shoots better and this has been proven to me with my Savage it went from shooting 4" at 100yards to shooting 1 1/2" from the bench if I do my part. I dont know if this applies to the other manufacturers.

Tutt
Great report glad to see the old girl shooting so well. You will find that the Enfield is a rather springy action with its rear locking lugs as Mic said neck sizing is the best way to reload for these rifles between action stretch and over size chambers it is comon to see some funky looking primers. Once you get the brass fire formed to your gun you will notice that it becomes less of an issue.

Great job keep up the good work.

[model55]

The Huber Concepts trigger about $70.00 either from them or Midway.

[1886]

I did not know that Old Savage's wife let him out without permission. 1886.

[CowboyTutt]

Joe, I haven't tried any of the 174 boat tail military ammo, so I cannot say. However, looking down the 2 groove barrel and looking at a boat tail bullet I can see how both grooves would not be engraving the bullet (the grooves are pretty far apart). Jeremy's been shooting his Enfield forever, so I trust him.

Here are some links to the Huber Concepts trigger. They look pretty neat!

http://www.huberconcepts.com/Lee-Enfiel ... cement.htm

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/hub ... /index.asp

-Tutt

[Hobie]

Nice report.

I like the Sierra 180 gr. Pro-hunter, too. However, I have used the 174 gr. BTs and they shoot just as well. So does Greek ball (if you can still find any).

These are the best bolt guns ever.

[CowboyTutt]

Hobie, I honestly can't remember: Is your rifle a 2 groove design? Some were made with 5 grooves.

-Tutt

[Hobie]

Hobie, I honestly can't remember: Is your rifle a 2 groove design? Some were made with 5 grooves.

-Tutt

No, I forgot to say, mine are 5-groove barrels. I have a Fazerkly and a Long Branch.

[CowboyTutt]

Hmmmm. Joe's is a 2 groove barrel like mine. Not sure what to make of this. As an interesting side-note I just found out that Beartooth Bullets make some 170 grain gas checked hard cast in various sizes. I'm going to slug my bore and order up the proper size for my next tests using Varget and the BR-2 primer!

-Tutt

[Ben_Rumson]

Nice report Tutt.. Congrats on that load! I've been using the Pro Hunter bullet in my Enfields and Finn M39 about 10 years now and am happy with it's results too... Enfield nuts may find the below info food for thought.

[Old Savage]

Tutt, I use the Pro Hunter as my basic bullet when looking for the most accurate load for a bolt rifle. Sometimes something else is better but I don't recall the Pro Hunter ever not being a good choice if not the best. Some rifles will do as well or better with boattails but if you look at Sierra's manual you will see the Pro Hunters have a more consistent BC at varying velocities which is probably an advantage in long range shooting in some situations.

[Griff]

GREAT report, and WOW! Superb looking rifle!

[CowboyTutt]

Old Savage, your are probably right about the Pro-Hunter. It will depend on what my groove diameter is. Jeremy told me tonight his bore was far above 311 diameter of the Pro-Hunter (314 I think he said?) and his is probably the same as mine. Hey, its always fun to try something new and see how it works? Marshall Stanton at Beartooth makes a great bullet and can be sized perfectly.

Ben, thanks for the interesting article. I have not read Mic's book on "Accurizing the Factory Rifle" but I have spoken to him about beddng the Enfield. He mentioned that what had worked for him in the past was "hogging out" the wood, laying expoxy for regidity, then silicone bedding it to dampen vibration. Obviously, I'm not willing to do that to Savage-marked factory wood. However, applying a little more pressure at the nose while silicone bedding the rest to dampen vibration might work and would be easily reversable (mine is a number 4). I want to see how accurate I can make it with the right load first.

-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

Here is the link for the Beartooth bullet:

http://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

-Tutt

[Ysabel Kid]

Tutt, you're killin' me. I've always wanted one of these Enfields, and you are making it impossible to resist!

Sweet range report. Sounds like you had a great time!!!

[Nath]

I enjoyed that, thanks Tutt.

Nath.

[nemhed]

Tutt here's a link for an interesting article on using Trail Boss for light plinking loads for various milsurp arms.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/articles200 ... /index.asp

I was just recently given (for Christmas) an Ishapore No.1 mkIII and have 800 cast bullets from the Lee C312-185-1R mold referenced in the article. As soon as I get my 303 dies and a can of Trail Boss I'm going to see what I can whip up. I'm pretty excited about it because that Ishy has a like new bore and action hiding under some ugly wood and black paint. I hope it will make a good project.

[O.S.O.K.]

Great post - thanks!

If you'd like another treat, get yourself a Lyman 314299 mould (200 grain gas check "bore rider" bullet design) and cast some up - I size them in Lee's .314" sizer die set and us the liquid alox - pushed to about 2000 fps, these are tack drivers. You can expect 2" or less groups. The two groove should like the gas checked bullet.

I think these are so accurate because they absolutely fill the grooves being .314". I think that's the primary reason that .311" bullets are less accurate because they're often a little undersized for the bore.

[CowboyTutt]

Nemhed, please keep us informed or tell us the story after restoring your Enfield. You might be surprised how well old wood can look with steaming out the dings and a little steel wool. Oil and very fine steel wool works pretty good on metal too. Anyhow, I'd be real interested in hearing about it.

I don't cast my own bullets and down plan on it anytime soon as I don't even have a garage! But I can get the 170 grain oversized and I suspect some others too. Thanks for all the advice guys, it really does help.

-Tutt