OT: SELF DEFENSE AMMO

[roughcreek]

This has been discussed here numerous times. A lot of different opinions on handloading self defense ammo. hand gun or long gun. The following is a quote from an extensive article in "The Journal of Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network" that brings to light a consideration I had not heard before. I thought it would be of interest to fellow levergunners.
(quote)
I would be perfectly comfortable going into battle armed with my reloads. I would have personally checked to see that there was a proper powder charge in each case before seating the bullet, because I have had squib loads(no powder) from reputable ammunition manufacturers. Still, the negatives out weigh this positive. First, by using hand-loaded ammunition, you allow the opposition to portray you as some crazed, Rambo type whose hobby consists of making killer ammunition. Can you guarantee that a jury would not be prejudiced bythat argument? Although we know the argument is specious, it could certainly arise. More importantly, however, hand-loaded ammunition cannot be reliably replicated. Commercial ammunition manufacturers like Federal and Winchester keep independent records of the recipe used to make their products. Even if you keep exact records, you cannot provide independent data, so any ammunition used to conduct ballistic tests inevitably falls under suspicion. Exemplar ammunition for testing could be critical in two main areas. First, an independent expert needs to test the dispersion of the unburned gun power and other residue that creates the stippling seen on individuals shot at close range. Suppose you claim the person you shot was right on top of you when you pulled the trigger, but analysis of the gunshot shows little or no stippling. Suspicion that you lied, because normally stippling would be present. Let’s say you used extremely efficiently burning powder, and your particular load produced little unburned gunpowder. Your report is indeed accurate, but nearly impossible to prove. If, instead, you had used commercial ammunition, tests conducted using cartridges from the same lot of ammo corroborate your claim. If, however, no exemplar
ammunition is available, no test can be made, and the other side may convince the jury that you lied about the assailant’s position when you pulled the trigger. The amount of gunshot residue expelled while firing and its transference to skin is the other area in which hand-loaded ammunition can cause a big problem in court. Gunshot residue tests are used to determine if someone fired a gun. If you and your opponent were struggling for your gun when you discharged it into his stomach, wouldn’t it be nice to be able to prove that he had his hand on your gun when the gun discharged? Again, samples from a factory’s production lot of ammunition is the only conclusive way to show how much debris should remain after firing. Additionally, forensic science can determine if a particular gun fired a particular cartridge by examining the microscopic tool marks transferred from the
gun’s recoil shield to the case head. If hand-loaded cases have been fired before, this evidence is moot. Sometimes, even the bullet’s external ballistics come into question, and then bullet trajectory is replicated by live-fire testing.
With these points in mind, I must postulate that any advantage to using hand-loaded ammunition is considerably outweighed by the potential downfalls. (unquote)

PS: Incidently, this is a good organization to be a member of.

Roughcreek

[Modoc ED]

The short of it for self-defense ammo is:

If it'll put a hole in and kill whatever you're defending yourself against, it'll do. Doesn't matter if it's store bought, hand loaded, or what.

[JohndeFresno]

Good arguments, with certain provisos:
1) Stockpiling ammunition, for when it is no longer available, is done more cheaply with reloads.

2) There is no guarantee that first Internet ammunition will be banned in the near future, and then within a given state or jurisdiction as gun stores are again faced with frivolous but onorous "explosives" regulations or primers (for instance) are charged a huge surtax as proposed earlier, drying up their customer base. At that point, handloaded ammunition will not be viewed as the artifacts of a "nut," but rather as the only means to provide one's family with gun fodder. And in the final analysis, at least you will have something to use in your firearms.

3) Who is to say that powder or some other component of ammunition is not soon taxed into virtual oblivion?

It seems to me, then, that the best alternative is to stock up on a fair amount of factory ammunition that approximates what one can also hand load, through trial and error. The handloaded ammunition can be brought out in the event of some emergency if the factory stuff runs out. In fact, that is what I have done, and you may find some queries on this forum about certain factory loads and and equivalents from when I was working up my loads. I carry factory stuff, but if I run out, I can rely on handloads that are very close to the factory stuff in performance and function for each firearm that I use. I have finished the handguns, but am still working on a couple of long gun loads.

The other thing that I am currently doing is stocking up on primers, since they will possibly be a precious commodity in the future.

[Idiot]

The short of it for self-defense ammo is:

If it'll put a hole in and kill whatever you're defending yourself against, it'll do. Doesn't matter if it's store bought, hand loaded, or what.

Roger that! Assess, aim, shoot, comfirm kill, then call the cops to drag it away. There's an awful lot of ink spilled on something so simple.

[meanc]

Sounds like they're trying to do nothing more than boost the sales of factory ammunition and their own membership growth.

I've never heard/read of one actual case where reloaded ammo has ever been a subject/factor in the outcome of a trial.

The simple fact that US military snipers as well as Benchrest competition shooters mostly all load their own specifically for the firearm they use, lend credence to the accuracy and repeatibility potential of making your own.

And anyone that says mass produced ammunition (million+ rds a year) from a manufacturer is more precisely loaded than what reloads can be is sadly mistaken.

[Tycer]

A thought I had as far as that goes is that I could have 2-300 rounds loaded and they can use that for testing. Also, the argument can be made that a responsible gun owner shoots their weapon enough to be intimate with the weapon and using a different load changes the whole dynamic of the firearm, making it unsafe in a stressful situation. Practicing with commercial self defense ammo is too expensive.

[Old Ironsights]

Handy for me that I tend to carry .38sp +P LSWCHP... and that it's no trick at all to duplicate the loads. Even the Buffalo Bore .38 LSWCHP +P is made from the old standard Lyman 358156HP

Practice with factory equivelent loads...

'Course, if I reload the factory brass with matching primers... well, *I'm* not going to tell the CSI to do a powder residue crossmatch between what I'm carrying and OEM...

[Modoc ED]

And then again, everyone here is talking about rifle & pistol ammo. Most of us will be in some form of a home/property self defense situation when a self defense situation arises for us and in that situation "nothing beats a shotgun" for home/property defense. So the key for me is to have plenty of shotgun ammon on hand, which I do.

I reload for all my metalic cartidge weapons but do not for my shotguns; therefore, I buy shotgun ammo frequently.

[Old Ironsights]

And then again, everyone here is talking about rifle & pistol ammo. Most of us will be in some form of a home/property self defense situation when a self defense situation arises for us and nothing in that situation "nothing beats a shotgun" for home/property defense. So the key for me is to have plenty of shotgun ammon on hand, which I do.

I reload for all my metalic cartidge weapons but do not for my shotguns; therefore, I buy shotgun ammo frequently.

Shotgun isn't too hard to load for... in a pinch anyway.

12ga Lee Loaders are still pretty cheap.

[Hillbillygunsmith]

Just more "typical" attorney speakease. My main self defense pistol is a Colt 1911 that I handload for. I use new unfired starline +p cases and Remington 185 gr. sabre JHP loaded to 1100 FPS. I have several boxes they can use for comparsion and I would not have any problems arguing my case to any attorney in court. I have 30 years in law enforcement, extensive background in firearms as a competive shooter, state certified firearms instructor, 10 years as a licensed gunsmith and have been declared a expert in firearms on one court case.
Any of the above mentioned items in the first post can be argued away to the favor of the shooter by other experts or a good attorney on the shooter's side.
A self defense shooting can result in a person being charged with a crime even of he/she does everything right. All it takes is a sloppy investigation and a D.A. that does not believe a citizen should have the right to defend themselfs with the use of deadly force.
I reccommend that anyone who finds themselfs involved in having to shoot someone in self defense call the local law enforcement agency ASAP and then make a call to a attorney to insure their rights are not violated or trampled on.
Give the responding officer just enough information to show it was a self defense shooting and advise him that your attorney is enroute before you give a more detailed report. Lets face it, you will be under great stress after shooting someone and you can make a big mistake in what details you give out on what happen. Say the wrong thing and you go from a victim to a suspect in a heartbeat.
Above all, do not play the "Macho" man part and make statements about the *** deserved it and or "I wasn't scared of him". Instead tell the truth and tell the officer you were in fear of your life or a family member's life and the suspect gave you no choice but to shoot him to protect yourself, or other person from serious harm or death.
Then wait for your attorney to show up and be with you while being questioned. I would worry more about this then what I used to shoot the suspect with. I remember the words my first patrol Lt. told me over 34 years ago, " I would prefer to be tried by a jury of 12 then be carried by 6 pallbearers" !!!

[roughcreek]

Just more "typical" attorney speakease. My main self defense pistol is a Colt 1911 that I handload for. I use new unfired starline +p cases and Remington 185 gr. sabre JHP loaded to 1100 FPS. I have several boxes they can use for comparsion and I would not have any problems arguing my case to any attorney in court. I have 30 years in law enforcement, extensive background in firearms as a competive shooter, state certified firearms instructor, 10 years as a licensed gunsmith and have been declared a expert in firearms on one court case.
Any of the above mentioned items in the first post can be argued away to the favor of the shooter by other experts or a good attorney on the shooter's side.
A self defense shooting can result in a person being charged with a crime even of he/she does everything right. All it takes is a sloppy investigation and a D.A. that does not believe a citizen should have the right to defend themselfs with the use of deadly force.
I reccommend that anyone who finds themselfs involved in having to shoot someone in self defense call the local law enforcement agency ASAP and then make a call to a attorney to insure their rights are not violated or trampled on.
Give the responding officer just enough information to show it was a self defense shooting and advise him that your attorney is enroute before you give a more detailed report. Lets face it, you will be under great stress after shooting someone and you can make a big mistake in what details you give out on what happen. Say the wrong thing and you go from a victim to a suspect in a heartbeat.
Above all, do not play the "Macho" man part and make statements about the *** deserved it and or "I wasn't scared of him". Instead tell the truth and tell the officer you were in fear of your life or a family member's life and the suspect gave you no choice but to shoot him to protect yourself, or other person from serious harm or death.
Then wait for your attorney to show up and be with you while being questioned. I would worry more about this then what I used to shoot the suspect with. I remember the words my first patrol Lt. told me over 34 years ago, " I would prefer to be tried by a jury of 12 then be carried by 6 pallbearers" !!!

Well stated, I agree!!!

[Doc Hudson]

Thanks RoughCreek!

I've been arguing this point for years and getting "poo-pooed" for my troubles. Thanks for making the post. I've given up the argument and simply buy my factory ammo every other year and let other folks do as they please.

[John in MS]

"The simple fact that US military snipers as well as Benchrest competition shooters mostly all load their own specifically for the firearm they use, lend credence to the accuracy and repeatibility potential of making your own."

U.S. military snipers use Lake City M118LR ammunition, arsenal-loaded with Sierra 175 gr. MatchKings, in 7.62mm.
In other calibers, they similarly use ammunition issued through the supply system.

John

[Modoc ED]

Thanks RoughCreek!

I've been arguing this point for years and getting "poo-pooed" for my troubles. Thanks for making the post. I've given up the argument and simply buy my factory ammo every other year and let other folks do as they please.

Well Doc, all I gotta say is, "Keep some "Handi-Wipes" close by". It makes those "poo-pooed" moments much more tolerable!!!!

[meanc]

U.S. military snipers use Lake City M118LR ammunition, arsenal-loaded with Sierra 175 gr. MatchKings, in 7.62mm. In other calibers, they similarly use ammunition issued through the supply system.

That may be true today, I have been out for a few years.

I do distinctly remember some using the same M852 168gr MK bullet and know of some that would actually load up the 168gr GK.

So while Lake City may be the contractor for snipers, I do know of a few that loaded and shot their own in different calibers.

All that being beside the point, I believe that rounds optimized for a specific firearm built one at a time and with careful attention to detail at every step of the process will always be more consistent and more accurate than standard factory mass produced ammo.

[Tycer]

Instead tell the truth and tell the officer you were in fear of your life or a family member's life and the suspect gave you no choice but to shoot him to protect yourself, or other person from serious harm or death.
Then wait for your attorney to show up and be with you while being questioned. I would worry more about this then what I used to shoot the suspect with. I remember the words my first patrol Lt. told me over 34 years ago, " I would prefer to be tried by a jury of 12 then be carried by 6 pallbearers" !!!

Yes and no. Yes, be very careful not to posture macho. No, never talk to the officers on scene. Plead the 5th. Wait for your attorney. This is explained clearly here by law prof James Duane: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4885833865

[Slick13]

"The simple fact that US military snipers as well as Benchrest competition shooters mostly all load their own specifically for the firearm they use, lend credence to the accuracy and repeatibility potential of making your own."

U.S. military snipers use Lake City M118LR ammunition, arsenal-loaded with Sierra 175 gr. MatchKings, in 7.62mm.
In other calibers, they similarly use ammunition issued through the supply system.

John

Several times I've seen a show on the History Channel where it shows ammunition being handloaded by the USMC, and the ammunition being loaded with various recipes for specific rifles. I think that was for marksman competition though, not sniping.

~Michael

[Hillbillygunsmith]

Tycer;

If you follow the advice of law prof. James Duane, I can almost guarantee you one thing. You have forced that officer on the scene to place you under arrest in most cases. Your case may not make it to court after the facts come out later, but you will sit your butt in jail waiting on a prelim. court hearing for 48 hours.
Of course this will benifit your lawyer as he will be charging you for appearing at that prelim over his original counseling fees. Could be James Duane is being self serving here for his profession.
I would prefer not to sit in jail waiting on the facts to come out later, just give the officer enought information to indicate that you shot in self defense. You should not go into details, and when the officer starts asking detail questions, AND HE WILL, advise him that you have contacted your lawyer and would prefer to wait until he gets there before you answer any further questions. Just by doing this you have invoked your 5th to remain silent and you have not given the officer any reason to arrest you as you may have done by not talking to him at all as advised by the law prof.
#1 you are trying to avoid any arrest of your person. #2 You do not want to place yourself in a position of making a detailed statement that due to "tunnel vision" or extreme stress you get the facts wrong and tell the officer something that makes him think you are lying or your version does not fit other facts.
You would be better off listening to the advice of Massad Ayoob who has far more experience in self defense shootings then most of your lawyers lumped together. In fact if you ever find yourself going to court for a righteous self defense shooting, you would be very wise to have your attorney to bring him in as a "expert" witness in your behalf.
He has a stellar record of his clients winning in court and not going to jail on a wrongful conviction. If it was a bad shooting, don't call him, his facts may convict you.

[adirondakjack]

On scene?
"I thought I was gonna get killed"
"I feel like I'm gonna be sick"
"I can't talk right now"
and SHUT THE HELL UP till ya talk to the lawyer.

In the courtroom:
"Yes sir, I load my own TARGET AND HUNTING AMMO."
"I can't remember what was in the gun. If the bullets were jacketed, then it was hunting ammo. If not, it woulda been target ammo. That's the only kinds I have." "it was an emergency. I just grabbed some bullets and loaded the gun"

[J Miller]

I generally do not load my self defense guns with my own hand loads. But I do have those around and there is always a possibility that's what might be in the gun at that moment. I'm not gonna sweat it.

Many times I've heard the comments above about giving minimum or no info to the police and call a lawyer. You guys much be freeking rich. I don't know anyone who has enough money to get to know a lawyer well enough he'll trot right over to your house after you've shot some cretin at O:dark:30. And no lawyer in the bloody phone book is gonna take a call from someone that doesn't already have him on retainer and trot over to the shooting scene.
This call "your" lawyer thing is bogus. You'll either get arrested and call one from the yellow pages from your jail cell, or you'll not get arrested and it's not gonna be a problem.
Most of us live from paycheck to paycheck, knowing a lawyer is something that just doesn't happen.

Joe

[Old Ironsights]

Actually... "my" lawyer is one I looked up in the phonebook/internet a good while ago - one who sideline/specializes in RKBA.

He is not on retainer, just speed-dial.

Look up a Pro RKBA attorney and keep his number handy. Update/verify it frequently.

A real Pro RKBA attorney who is a member of your State's Bar won't turn down a righteous SD shoot - even if he might not get back to you until the next business day.

A couple of nights in jail beats an incompetent/anti RKBA "phonebook-panic" attorney any time.

[adirondakjack]

Joe, I "have" a lawyer I've used from time to time (real estate, my will, etc) who I would call for the initial "run" to the PD to see about getting me out of the pokey, etc. HE would be the guy chasing down the proper lawyer for such an event, hopefully AFTER I'm home, trying to sleep in my own bed, and certainly BEFORE I make a formal statement. You sure do have the right to keep yer mouth shut, or to make a very minimal statement like I said above "I thought he was gonna kill me." I can't talk right now" "I'm too upset" etc. Let any FACTS be elicited ONLY in the presence of competent council BECAUSE COPS are entitled to lie to ya, intimidate ya, make ya think yer goin away for 100 years, trick you into a damning statement while professing to "help" you, etc.

I DON"T CARE what it costs. 20 years costs more.

[Old Ironsights]

Also a good idea to just "know" a few lawyers. I did some campaigning for one who was running for Judge. He'd help me in a minute.

And another from Church - even though she's a "corporate".

Not a bad idea to keep several numbers in the wallet.

[Hillbillygunsmith]

J. Miller;

You have brought up a very valid point that does effect alot of citizens. I do not expect everyone to always follow my advice due to circumstances that can not be controlled or foreseen. Or they may feel different about what advice to follow. What I have tried to do is give some advice that may help a person that falls into a self defense shooting circumstances.
Every person that falls into this must make a decision of what to do after the shooting, the same as they made the decision to shoot in the first place. If you do not have a family attorney or know one that will respond, they will usually meet you at the police station where you will be questioned, then you might just have to make the decision to tell all to the officers and hope for the best.
I have seen citizens that have done this and got their eyeballs screwed out later by a over zealous D.A. I have seen them pled guilty to a lessor offense in court just because they did not want to spend the thousands to hire a good lawyer, but did not qualitfy for free counsel. As the result the guy lost his rights to own any firearms for the rest of his life. His crime was to pull his licensed concealed firearm and back down a 270 lb. outlaw biker who was walking towards him after telling him that he was going to beat his *** into the ground. The biker has just finished beating his own girlfriend, needless to say she lied later and defended her biker boyfriend. A good lawyer would have gotten him off of any conviction.
All of us facing this issue, should it arise, must decide what is more important, my freedom or paying monthly installments to a lawyer to keep from being railroaded. The guy in the above senario has told me later that he wished he had listen to my advice and obtained the services of a lawyer and not have that conviction on his record and having to give up his firearms because of the conviction.
In the aftermath of a shooting that was self defense, I have seen persons make statements, while under extreme stress, that came back to haunt them later and make others think that the shooting was not self defense after all. If those persons happen to be the cops or D.A. you are in for a rough ride via the justice system.
Everyone is free to handled this as they see fit, but they should be aware there may be pitfalls in the course they decide to follow.

[Bogie35]

Just more "typical" attorney speakease. My main self defense pistol is a Colt 1911 that I handload for. I use new unfired starline +p cases and Remington 185 gr. sabre JHP loaded to 1100 FPS. I have several boxes they can use for comparsion and I would not have any problems arguing my case to any attorney in court. I have 30 years in law enforcement, extensive background in firearms as a competive shooter, state certified firearms instructor, 10 years as a licensed gunsmith and have been declared a expert in firearms on one court case.
Any of the above mentioned items in the first post can be argued away to the favor of the shooter by other experts or a good attorney on the shooter's side.
A self defense shooting can result in a person being charged with a crime even of he/she does everything right. All it takes is a sloppy investigation and a D.A. that does not believe a citizen should have the right to defend themselfs with the use of deadly force.
I reccommend that anyone who finds themselfs involved in having to shoot someone in self defense call the local law enforcement agency ASAP and then make a call to a attorney to insure their rights are not violated or trampled on.
Give the responding officer just enough information to show it was a self defense shooting and advise him that your attorney is enroute before you give a more detailed report. Lets face it, you will be under great stress after shooting someone and you can make a big mistake in what details you give out on what happen. Say the wrong thing and you go from a victim to a suspect in a heartbeat.
Above all, do not play the "Macho" man part and make statements about the *** deserved it and or "I wasn't scared of him". Instead tell the truth and tell the officer you were in fear of your life or a family member's life and the suspect gave you no choice but to shoot him to protect yourself, or other person from serious harm or death.
Then wait for your attorney to show up and be with you while being questioned. I would worry more about this then what I used to shoot the suspect with. I remember the words my first patrol Lt. told me over 34 years ago, " I would prefer to be tried by a jury of 12 then be carried by 6 pallbearers" !!!

+1

bogie