Caution on who does Color Case hardening

[Mike Hunter]

Got in a Winchester 1886 a while back, nice rife, had been Color Case Hardened by someone else (advertises a lot in Gun List). Buttplate cracked when the owner tried to install it, too hard, frame was warped enough that the bolt wouldn’t operate properly, lower tang warped… geesh what a mess. A lot of folks have been advertising that they can do CCH, beware, unless they know what they’re doing …very easy way to ruin a nice gun.

Right now the only folks I would trust to CCH my gun; besides myself, Is Turnbulls and Color Case Company.

Mike Hunter
Hunter Restorations
www.Hunterrestorations.com

[Hobie]

Mike,

Thanks for posting this.

[Duff L Bagg]

Thank for the heads up Mike. I hate hearing stories like this, having been the victim of a couple of half azzed gun breakers. Its a wonder that they can stay in business.

[Old Savage]

Yes Mike - thanks for the info. CCH is not one of my tastes but many REALLY love it and it is good to know where to get it done right.

[dr walker]

I hate to hear that, ruining of good guns. Thanks for posting. The pictures I have seen of rifles that you have restored have looked great.

[winchester1886]

If I had an old 86 or some other old rifle there is no way I'de let anyone in the world touch it I don't care who they are, I hate people getting old rifles and trying to make them look new, they destroy 100 plus years of character and history I like them the way Oliver F made them, if they want a new rifle go and buy a new one.

[KirkD]

In general, I might agree, but there's a time for restoration if a fellow wants to do it. I picked up an 1886 for $650 that had been butchered (barrel and mag tube cut down, stock sanded so bad one side of the forearm fit inside the receiver, mag tube would fall out if gun was tilted down, etc.). I sent it to Mike Hunter and he turned it into a gorgeous rifle. Mike knows what he is talking about when it comes to CCH'ing and restoration of old guns.

[Griff]

I agree w/Kirk, I've got several projects in various stages, a couple of which will be color-cased. Kirk maybe another before & after set would show why often a restoration is tte best way to salvage a firearm.

[KirkD]

I agree w/Kirk, I've got several projects in various stages, a couple of which will be color-cased. Kirk maybe another before & after set would show why often a restoration is tte best way to salvage a firearm.

Griff, I deleted the 'before' photos from my computer .... just too painful to look at. However, the before and after photos of my Winchester 1886 can be seen at this link http://www.hunterrestorations.com/Examples.html .... and the 'before' condition of the gun was even worse than what the 'before' photos show.

[Ysabel Kid]

Great post Mike! Thank you for the warning. I think a lot of people (not many here, but a lot of firearm owners) probably think that CCH is simply a surface treatment like bluing. They don't realize the precision it requires to do it correctly.

Someday... when things stop breaking around the house and I can squirrel away some funds - I would like to ship off to you the Winchester 1892 .25-20 WCF I purchased from hfcable here on the forum. Someday...

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

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Right now the only folks I would trust to CCH my gun; besides myself, Is Turnbulls and Color Case Company.

Mike Hunter
Hunter Restorations
http://www.Hunterrestorations.com

Leveraction frames will warp if not done right.The first CC-ed Rossi's (late 90's) were real bears to make work right. Mike and turnbull are the only folks I trust to do it and not warp them.

Mike's currently doing the TTN SXS's for my CAS customers.

[KirkD]

Absolutely gorgeous. I can foresee doing a calendar featuring a different CCH'd firearm for each month.

[Pete44ru]

Thanks, Mike - But I fear you're shoveling sand against the tide, Pardner.

I can't remember how many times I've advised about various things in a similar fashion, only to be met with the opposing final view: "Yeah, but - XXX is cheaper".

Some folks just have to learn the hard way.

.

[Mike Hunter]

Thanks Again to KirkD for letting me use his rifle on my site; most of my customers don’t want it known that they had work done on their guns….

Steve; they look good assembled, still think the side plates on those SxS need to be CCH’d though.

Color Case Hardening is not a difficult process; but you need to understand what is happening to the metal, and what metals you can CCH safely. I’m afraid that there some folks out there that think you can Bone case harden steels like 4140 with no problems.

For those who don’t know; usually the last two numbers of the SAE steel designation is carbon content i.e.. 1018 steel will have .15 and .20% carbon, 4140 will have between .35 and .42% carbon.

General rule of thumb is steels with less than .25% carbon are good candidates for Color Case Hardening. Old Winchesters, Marlins and Colts used very mild steels for the guns, equivalent to today’s 1018-1020 which makes them ideal for CCH.

Time and temperature in the furnace have a significant impact on the hardness and depth of hardness; the higher the temps and or the longer the part is in the furnace will increase the depth of the case. I suspect the 86 parts I mentioned earlier, had been case hardened at a fairly high temp and for quite some time, causing the carbon to penetrate quite deep into the metal; my guess is that they also quenched at a fairly high temp, which caused the warpage (and no blocking).

I also suspect that they did not anneal the parts prior to CCH, annealing the parts prior to CCH makes the parts soft again; makes it easier to polish and machine, and also greatly reduces the chance of warping & cracking.

Finally after CCH the parts need to be tempered slightly. Tempering requires reheating the parts to a certain temp for a period of time. Tempering will reduce the strains and stresses in the metal caused by CCH.

Pete44, I agree, some folks buy on price alone…and I’ve been guilty of that myself; but considering all the work that goes into doing CCH properly:

Anneal the parts, repolish, clean so the parts are spotless, block, pack, case harden, then temper. Figure in cost of consumables, bone/wood charcoal, electricity (poor meter is spinng like a top when that kiln fires up). I think my prices are a little on the low side…

Back to that 86, customer paid $$ to have it color cased, and then sent it to me because he cracked the BP and couldn’t get the frame assembled. I had to anneal those parts, weld up the BP & polish that back down; 4 hours straightening out the frame, then re color case harden. That discount CCH job cost him a bunch of $$$.

Mike Hunter
Hunter Restorations
www.Hunterrestorations.com

[Ysabel Kid]

That discount CCH job cost him a bunch of $$$.

"Discounted" anythings often do. Truer words were rarely spoken than "you get what you pay for"...