.308 or .358 Winchester

[Bigahh]

Been thinking of a new BLR in either .308 or .358. My shots will be in Heavy cover, no farther than 100 yards. In your opinion will I notice a difference in Power on Whitetails at this range? I have been debating on these 2 for a week now. Please give me some input, the pros, and cons.......

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I believe Cowboy Tutt has one in 358 and may have an opinion. All I'll say is that one round is fired by dainty French soldiers in defense of cheese and wine, while the other is fired through thick brush in dense forests of the Eastern US by stogie smoking deer slayers. Also, the latter will probably have better resale value as there are far more BLR's around in the former chambering.

[CowboyTutt]

Bigah, I'm no expert on hunting at all, but I was faced with the same decision years ago and went with the 358 Win. If you can handload, I do think the 358 is superior for short-range hunting as it just leaves a bigger hole with potentially less meat damage (a heavy-er bullet at modest velocity). Also, the velocity of the 308 and 358 are virtually the same with 180 grain bullets, but obviously the 358 has larger diameter which is an advantage with that bullet weight. If you can't handload, then perhaps the 308 would be the better choice. One of the nice things about handloading the 358 is that you can use the same "match quality" components as the 308 which makes for some accurate ammo indeed! You may want to wait a bit longer (until Feb) as the new Savage 99 will be out soon, and might be chambered in the 35/284 Win cartridge which would be better still.

-Tutt

[BenT]

I don't know if this helps or not. But I hunted over a decade with a BLR in 308. Great Gun. I picked up a Win BB in 356 a few years ago and it drops deer in their tracks compared to the 308. Not saying the 308 didn't kill deer. It did a fine job. But I'm using 200 gr in the 356 compared to 165 and 150 gr in the 308. All my shots with the 356 were with in 50 yards. If you reload the 358 will give you plenty of options for bullets. You probably have plenty of 30 caliber guns ,why get another one. Go for the 358.

Good Luck !

[CowboyTutt]

Rimfire, thank you. Actually, I hope Doc Hudson weighs in on this as he is a better expert than I am. He and I are in agreement however that a BLR in 358 is a very accurate rifle. And even Old Savage likes the way the aluminum receiver BLR's carry in the field!

-Tutt

[Hobie]

I think you might not be able to tell the difference in how deer fall to well placed bullets. However, you might feel a special affinity for the bigger bore of the .358 Win. That is reason enough to get one.

[CowboyTutt]

I'm only to going to relate this story once. I have a good friend in Hollister who has been an avid hunter for a very long time. He routinely shoots a 30-06 bolt gun with a scope. One time, he used a 308 Win in another gun, and the bullet only penetrated 2 inches and the buck got away until "retrieved" later. Personally, I think he was using inferior 308 ammo, or just had an unusual squib load, but that is what happened to him. Again, I think the 308 is a good cartridge, but it is not my first choice for hunting, and thats an understatement.

-Tutt

[pharmseller]

Get a model 71.


P

[J35]

If you don't reload get the .308 there is no fly's on it.

My two favorite cartridges are the .308 and .358

Either one will kill any Whitetail that ever drew a breath. Brush or in the open matter's not. Neither one has any magic that the other doesn't.

good hunting

[Doc Hudson]

I'm writing this before I read the rest of the entries, so I don't know if I'm swimming against the tide or going with the flow.

About fifteen years ago, I was in a similar situation. I was looking at a good chance of making a black bear hunt in Upstate New York and needed a good rifle and cartridge suitable for bear, and other larger game.

I did weeks of research, calculating energies, velocities, trajectories, retained velocity and energies at various ranges from 100 to 500 yards. I compared calculated recoil, availability of components, and every variable I could think up. I printed or scribbled reams of figures, and charts. I drove my wife and friends to distraction with my research and discussions. Finally I reached a decision.

1. - Trajectory, velocity and energy beyond 300 yards didn't mean a darned thing to me since I had no expectation or intention of making a shot on game at ranges beyond 300 yards.

2. - All other things being equal, I wanted a medium bore cartridge, not a small bore.

3. - I had no real need or interest in the hot rock magnum cartridges.

4. - I concluded that the very best medium bore cartridge currently available is the .358 Winchester. And I decided I wanted a Browning BLR in that caliber.

Following that decision, I ended up searching for two years before I found it. In the meantime, I purchased a rifle in the runnerup caliber, a Ruger M-77 MkII Stainless All-Weather Rifle in .300 WinMag and I hated the ugly *** with a passion. The bear hunt fell through, but I kept searching for a BLR in .358 Winchester.

I found one in very near NIB condition and bought it. The only regret I've ever had about that rifle is that I've not had a chance to use it as much as I'd like.

When I started load development, the only .35 caliber rifle bullets I could find were some Hornady 200 gr. Spire Points. I was a little disappointed since I planned to use 250 gr. bullets. The gun shop told me they'd have some 250's in the shop in a few weeks.

In the mean time, I started load development. I loaded ten rounds with 40.6 grains of IMR 4198 and a CCI 200 primer. I also loaded a few cartridges with other powders.

The first couple of loads I tried were pretty good, but nothing to really brag about. I wiped out the bore and started shooting those IMR 4198 loads. I've shot nothing else since then. Those first ten shots went into a one hole group that could be covered with a half-dollar.

After I loaded enough ammo to sight-in the scope and do some serious long range shooting, things got even better. At 100 yards, that load put five shots into just a smidgen over 5/8", and at 200 meters, the five shot group was less than 1 1/2". Why on earth would I bother experimenting with other loads when I was getting accuracy like that?

That Browning BLR in .358 Winchester is the most accurate rifle I've ever owned, and one of the most accurate I've ever had the pleasure of shooting. Some years later, I read Paco making similar statements.

In honesty, I really don't know if the magic is in the cartridge, or in the rifle. All I can say is that my opinion of the .358 Winchester cartridge has been heartily confirmed by my BLR. I know several folks who own .358 Win's of various sorts, to the best of my knowledge, most, if not all, share my opinion of the cartridge.

I won't tell you that a .308 BLR would be a poor choice, but I will say that if I had a chance to buy another BLR, I'd get another one in .358 Win.

[Doc Hudson]

Rimfire, thank you. Actually, I hope Doc Hudson weighs in on this as he is a better expert than I am. He and I are in agreement however that a BLR in 358 is a very accurate rifle. And even Old Savage likes the way the aluminum receiver BLR's carry in the field!

-Tutt

Tutt,

I'm no expert! I'm just an opinionated old gun crank with a computer.

[Tycer]

The ballistics are negligable between the 308 and 358. IMO bigger is better. I have two 358 BLRs.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Pardon me for deviating here a bit, but does anyone have experience with the BLR takedown model? I'm curious as to how solidly the two halves lock up. In the pictures on the Browning site, one can only see the slim metal lever that seems to be a part of the mechanism. Since most BLRs are scoped on the receiver, I would think that the repeatability of this lockup would be of paramount importance.

I have a BAR 270 MK II Lightweight that I've had for years that I'm thinking of selling off ... perhaps to get one of these BLR Lightweight 358s in a takedown. Now that Bigahh has me all in a knot about a 358 levergun.

[Slick13]

My shots will be in Heavy cover, no farther than 100 yards.

Anything bigger than .22 cal, heavier than 100 grains, and going faster than 2000 fps will suffice. Get whichever one you want.

~Michael

[t.r.]

Deer are certainly not armor-plated. Either will topple a big deer quickly.

.358 is one of those cartridges never really made it big in the marketplace but has been kept alive by Browning and custom makers. Annual sales are quite low indeed. It certainly deserves to be more popular than it is. I'm certain that you'll be very pleased with performance.

Ammo costs have skyrocketed and the factories place production limits so they're not stuck with unsold inventory. For this reason, going with a popular cartridge means you'll find ammo easily and quite often offered at seasonal discount pricing. The hand loader is not concerned with these facts and loads his own whenever he chooses. This is an advantage that many shooters have embraced.

TR

This big muley was taken with .308 at long range with 150 grain pointed soft tip ammo. One shot and he toppled; never knew what hit him.

[Pete44ru]

I have had the opportunity to use both a .308 BLR and one in .358, for a few seasons, about twenty years ago.
I didn't handload at the time, so was shooting/hunting factory ammo.

The accuracy of both my riles was pretty close to one another (both were Williams peeped), and the .358 recoiled only a very little bit more than the .308 - but YMMV on that, since I'm not particularly recoil sensitive.

The terminal performance was a world apart in difference, however.

The Maine Whitetails I shot with the .308 BLR pretty much dropped at or very near the spot I shot them - even the runners.

The ones I shot with my .358 however, penciled through the deer at those same close brush ranges, letting them run off - either to die unfound (I hunt swamp edges) or at the feet of some stranger, who would usually put a shot into the body & tag it as their own ( a New England hunting hazzard).

So...............My $0.02:

Get a .308 if you will be shooting only factory loads; but if you handload for it, the .358 is a better & more satisfying rifle.

.

[Nath]

Apples n' oranges to me, we are only talking whitetails @ 100ish yds, I remember when that was the realm of the 30/30!
It is possible to load a 308 with 220 grainers, I fancy it would be very pleasant to shoot with the cut in fuel volume, no?

Don't get me wrong, I have allways admired the .358 but have your deer aquired body armour

Nath.

[tman]

at 300yds+, i'd take the .308. close up on north america's biggest, go with the.358. if you handload, the .358 is best, if you don't , go with the .308. either way, 2 great cartridges in a great gun. you can't make a mistake whatever way you go.

[Lastmohecken]

I have used the .308 in an older steel framed BLR for deer for many years. I don't like the .308 with 180gr corelocks, but with 180gr Winchester Silvertips it works just as good as about anything you can use for deer from 0 to 250yds, anyway. And I have killed coyotes and deer at 350yds with it too. Unfortunately, the corelocks have failed to open up for me and others I know, on several occasions, but we still got those deer, eventualy, and that is how I know.

The 358 is a fine round, but you definately need to reload for this round, as loaded ammo is not always easy to find, and the .358 is very versatile with the right handloads. I had a Blr in that caliber, and it was very accurate.

I will say that I have also shot the .350 Remington Mag, quite a bit, and while I never shot a deer with the 358 Win, I have found that the 350 Rem mag is a fantastic deer dropper. it's a little faster then then the .358, but it's one of the best rounds I have ever used. Franky, I have seen little need to get another 358 BLR, since I have had such good luck with the .308 win, but if Browning ever comes out with a BLR in 350 Remington mag, I will be the first in line to buy one.

I sold my 358 BLR, because it wasn't reliable in feeding, but it was an older steel framed rounded clip model and those have been know to not feed very good, due to the magazine design and the fatter neck of the .358, but later models should work fine. I regretted getting rid of it, but I can't stand to own or hunt with a gun that is not 100% reliable. I almost purchased one of the later steel framed models last year at the Tulsa gunshow, and sometimes I regret not buying it, but since I already owned a Model 71 in .348, a BLR in .308, a model 71 in 450 Alaskan, and a Remington 700 in .350 mag, and several other rifles in 45/70, I just had a hard time seeing where I was going to have time to really enjoy it. Hopefully, someone else is enjoying it, by now.

[geobru]

I have never shot a deer with a 358, but I have a 308 BLR that I have used on blacktail deer that dressed out from 130 to 250 pounds, and several elk. Shots have been anywhere from 25 feet to 300 yards, usually in heavy cover at an average distance of about 60 yards.

Three things I can tell you about the 308 BLR.
1. It is extremely accurate, shooting sub-moa groups regularly at 100 yards if I do my part.
2. It will handle deer and elk without a problem if the shot is well placed.
3. 308 ammo is available wherever ammo is sold.

The only time I shot anything where I didn't get good penetration was on an elk. He was standing quartering to me, about 75 yards up a steep slope. The point of aim was in forward of his front leg, angling up through the bottom of the rib cage. That 180 grain core lock was stopped by the brisket bone, and didn't get into the lung cavity. The elk dropped in its tracks, and then managed to get up and move about 300 feet up through the timber, where he just stopped and was unable to go any farther. A head shot finished him. A larger caliber gun might have pentrated that bone, but the outcome would have been the same.

I like the 308 because I can hit where I want to and the recoil is light enough that I can keep the animal in the scope to see how it reacts to the shot. As has already been said, shot placement is really important. The gun that you can shoot accurately under all conditions will be the best one for you.

Just my two cents worth.

[PaulB]

My two favorite calibers.

Agree, you need to be a reloader for the .358. The .358 definitely has the cool factor going for it; I like the fact every Bill and Bob in the woods does not have one. I like that meat damage is probably going to be less.

I got a recent BLR in .358 because I figured I'd be hunting in grizzly territory, near where I live. Never hunted with it yet but spent some time blowing up lined-up milk jugs with warm loads using the Speer 250 GS and Hot Core. I can say the recoil is not bad at all; I think of it as the lightest easiest to shoot gun with the most thump at the muzzle.

I'm interested in trying .357 handgun bullets for varmints too. Pretty versatile.

The little I shot at paper targets, I didn't have much luck but I think it was a combination of peep sights, 50+ year old eyes, and poorly lighted target range (under the trees). I should drag it out of the safe and give it a fair try. Part of the problem with this gun is it is so pretty you hate to take it out and ding it up; should have bought a used one!

[Bigahh]

Don't get me wrong, I have allways admired the .358 but have your deer aquired body armour

Nath.

No, I have not spotted any plating on our Whitetails as of yet, but my main concern is probably similar to many others on this board. I have been fortunate to harvest many Bucks in my life, some small, and some very large. I believe the truly large ones are a totally different deer, and to be successful must be hunted differently also. Around 15 years ago I became strictly a "Trophy" hunter only with a few Does harvested for the meat, and because my Biologist neighbor tells me on occasion some Does need to be harvested. If the Buck I am after presents himself with a less than perfect shot I am taking the shot if I am confident and want a capable rifle. I now believe it will be the .358 loaded with Round Nosed Hornady Bullets. Thanks everyone for your input, especially Doc Hudson, and Tutt

[Meeteetse]

Just a quick comment. I have never fired a .358, but looking at the ballistics I am sure it will do the job. My experience begins in 1963 when I had my first opportunity to hunt with a .308. Previously it had always been the 30/06. The joke in Wyoming was that the .308 and 30/06 were the same except you could watch the .308 go down range. Well it may be slightly slower than the /06 but it certainly knocks down game. I have harvested many mule deer and elk and none walked or ran away. The longest shots in the 250 yd. range, dropped the game quickly and humanely. Many of the close shots caused the deer to drop immediately.

I believe in the .308 and trust it completely on all game in the Rocky Mtn. area except perhaps the biggest bears in NW Wyoming and Montana. I have a 45/70 for that. If I'm not mistaken the .308 has proven very popular in Canada for deer and caribou. I also like the fact that I can find/buy .308 anyplace that sells ammo. That may be a problem for the .358, but perhaps that is not an issue for most people.

[JReed]

I dont own a BLR or a .358 I do how ever own a .308 H&R and would not think twice about using it on anything in the lower 48. Our boys have been using the .308 a.k. 7.62X51 on many a bad guy for decades out to 800 yards and then some. As the others have said ammo for the .308 can be had every where at reasonable prices.

[Nath]

Don't get me wrong, I have allways admired the .358 but have your deer aquired body armour

Nath.

No, I have not spotted any plating on our Whitetails as of yet, but my main concern is probably similar to many others on this board. I have been fortunate to harvest many Bucks in my life, some small, and some very large. I believe the truly large ones are a totally different deer, and to be successful must be hunted differently also. Around 15 years ago I became strictly a "Trophy" hunter only with a few Does harvested for the meat, and because my Biologist neighbor tells me on occasion some Does need to be harvested. If the Buck I am after presents himself with a less than perfect shot I am taking the shot if I am confident and want a capable rifle. I now believe it will be the .358 loaded with Round Nosed Hornady Bullets. Thanks everyone for your input, especially Doc Hudson, and Tutt

Good choice pardner, still apple n' oranges to me mind.
The big red deer over here are big but most fall to the 243, done it my self.
Bigger ain't allways better but your choice is still a winner because you have the choice so good for you

Nath.

[brucew44guns]

This discussion is informative for sure. Looks like the .358 tips the scales a little for the rifle in question, so I'm glad I bought a .358 some time back in a BLR and will give it a try this season. I went on the Gun Trader rag magazine a year ago, a guy had 22 boxes of fairly recent .358 Silver Tips, wow!---20.00 a box shipped. I gave him an extra 20 for shipping just trying to be fair, heck of a deal. But you can get factory ammo if you buy ahead of the time you need it, and get a few boxes here and there, soon you will be in fat city, even if you don't load. And you will have a very special rifle and caliber indeed. I always felt that way about the .348, until my old eyes got a little blurry in bad light with open sights.

[1886]

I have a SUPER accurate Ruger 77 Frontier Rifle in .358 Win. The .358 makes a bigger hole. The .358 will work great in heavy cover but is not just a "short range" proposition. The .358 will handle a wider range of, larger, game. There are plenty of superb bullets available for the .35 bore.That pretty much sums it up for me. 1886.