LEO Attitude toward citizens and guns?

[AJMD429]

First thing that has to go is the war on (some) drugs.

That's probably the biggest part of this issue, and one of the biggest things which has destroyed freedom, increased violent crime, and harmed the citizen-LEO relationship.

Think about it - if you take something a sizeable portion of the population wants to do or have, and make it illegal, you've gone from maybe 1% of the population being 'guilty' of something at any given point in time, to maybe 20% of them. If that thing is something harmful to others, fine - if 20% of the population are thieves or rapists or murderers, lock 'em up! On the other hand, if it is NOT something harmful to others (say owning a gun, or drinking alcohol - both of which CAN be used to harm others, but are generally NOT so used), and it is made illegal, that 20% of the population will immediately resent the new law and the LEO's enforcing it. In many cases, the rest of the population will sympathize even if they don't do whatever is now illegal. If it is something that 20% strongly wants to keep doing, they WILL keep doing it, only illegally. Then you have a situation where say 2% stops doing whatever is illegal, 80% never did it anyway, and 18% continues to do what they were doing legally, only now at risk of arrest, and usually for a much higher 'black-market' price. You have more otherwise-law-abiding citizens in jail, more who are cash-strapped, and more who are angry at the asinine situation of having their otherwise harmless activity deemed illegal by others. PLUS - you've only reduced the 'undesireable' behavior by a minuscule amount.

So you have all these citizens fearing or hating LEO's rather than viewing them as 'Officer Friendly'; first off, the 18% of the citizens still doing whatever is illegal are rightfully fearful of LEO's, then on top of that, the rest of us have to fear being 'suspected' of whatever it is, or being in the wrong place at the wrong time when a 'bust' goes down, and getting hit by stray bullets or whatever. Plus we all know that there will be 'bad apples' in the LEO community who may decide to shake us down under the threat of saying we violated the new rules. (It is far easier to extort from a citizen by accusing them of a 'drug' crime than with a crime like theft or assault or murder, which require an actual 'victim' - all you have to do is plant the appropriate 'evidence'.) Such 'bad apples' are pretty rare when all the LEO's do is enforce legitimate laws against actual crimes, but the 'war on drugs' has created a whole new situation where a not-so-nice and not-so-honest individual is well-aware that becoming a LEO is a path to power, particularly over that "18%", but the 'opportunities' to abuse that power over the other 82% are there as well.

I don't do illegal drugs, but I do carry CCW, and this is the way I feel when in a state that disallows CCW - I feel that every LEO out there is a potential 'enemy' of not only me, but of freedom in general. Even though I don't CCW on the rare occasions I'm out of state, I'm so used to doing it legally that I still feel I'm somehow a 'bad guy' in LEO eyes when in Illinois, just because I would be CCW if I had my choice.

On top of that, you have now a LEO community which senses this distrust and fear, and which knows that 18% or whatever of the population they pass on the streets is a violator-of-the-law. As those 18% get in the court system and jails, and become dysfunctional, system-playing, and drains on society, the cops start to see that a high percentage of citizens are (or more accurately, have now become) truly 'bad guys'. Further, since those 18% become 'labeled' and not hireable, and not responsible (they spend all their money on dope/weed instead of paying their bills), we now have a large segment of society which exists 'outside the law' and drains resources by engaging in lucrative drug dealing vs. some constructive employment, and has nothing to lose by becoming a REAL criminal (thief, mugger, etc.) since their record already has been ruined by some bogus 'drug' crime. That translates into a bunch of violent nothing-to-lose individuals who prey on society, fight law enforcement, and turn our streets into war-zones. Thus we're all endangered when it becomes an "us vs. them" mentality for LEO's and/or ordinary citizens.

It isn't the 'drug' that makes all this violent crime, clogged courts, and overflowing jails - it's the prohibition of the 'drug' (we saw this with alcohol prohibition a century ago). When there was no drug prohibition, there was no crime due to drug dealers battling for turf, and the drug users either maintained gainful employment and used their then-affordable particular drug responsibly enough to not affect others, or they got out of control with it just like today's alcoholics. Like people who drink alcohol, most of them did fine, but some tanked. Our 'war on drugs' hasn't reduced the latter group one bit, so I see no benefit from it - only the cost of tax-funded courts and prisons and SWAT teams which do not reduce drug use anyway, but serve only to subsidize the high profits of the drug-dealing industry - increasing the resultant violence, and disrespect for the law which our drug war created.

One of the reasons I think the "Conservative Revolution" we're seeing now will unfortunately fail, is that they refuse to drop the war on drugs nonsense. Being angry that government doesn't trust you to make your own financial decisions, yet happily allowing them to take over your moral decisions, isn't really much of an improvement - it's just substituting one reason to create a police-state vs. another reason to create a police-state.

I don't know how today's LEO's do it - they are put in a position where they have to enforce clearly unconstitutional laws and regulations in addition to (often instead of) ones that truly serve the public. It would be like as a physician having to force patients to take dangerous medications in order to remain able to stay on the job and do the legitimate things like treat injury and illness. I suppose if I had to do that, I'd try to do the right thing, and treat the ill or injured, while finding reasons to avoid forcing the dangerous medications onto patients, but sooner or later I'm sure I'd run afoul of my bosses when I didn't fill my quota of the latter. Can our legitimate LEO's avoid falling into that same type of trap? One look at our clogged courts and filled jails makes me think not.

[76/444]

When the community chest runs dry because of these individual LEO's,... citizens will take better notice of what is going on in their community, imo. nothing like MONEY, or the lack there of, to get people's attention!

They'll just raise my taxes... remember we are subservient and sheep to be herded.

Hmmm,... and how will you vote after they raise your taxes?

[76/444]

If they can't handle it without taken their frustrations out on unarmed honest law abiding citizens,.. they should take a sabbatical, quit,...or be sued and then fired!

Problem is, they aren't fired. Not all of them anyway (although some departments are better at keeping the riffraff out than others).

They aren't sued either.

I'm not talking about what should be. I'm talking about what is.

Well, ...some members of minorities have learned to sue the establishment, with rather good results! I don't think it a great leap of technical aptitude for the majority to learn as well!

Maybe more of the majority should be concentrating on making what SHOULD be ,... into what IS?


just one man's opinion.

[piller]

I also live just outside of Dallas, and have had one, and only one, bad experience with a LEO. He was a Dallas Sherrif's Department Deputy who told me that I didn't need to have a concealed carry permit as he was protecting all citizens. He then gave me a ticket which his dashboard camera proved was not valid. He stopped me because he couldn't catch the guy in the Expedition who was doing at least 90 in a 55 zone. I say at least 90 because he was able to go into a 4 wheel drift to slide around 2 lanes of traffic in front of him, and then jump back into the middle lane and was out of sight in less than the time it took for Greg Kihn to sing "You've broken up for good just an hour before". That Expedition was later captured in a big Meth raid which I saw on TV. Many other times I have met, talked to, and even 3 times since then been stopped by LEOs. All positive experiences. One of the times I was genuinely speeding because I had missed seeing the sign for decreased speed ahead. That officer was very polite, asked about what type of concealed handgun I carried, told me he thought well of my Kel-Tec, and let me off with a warning. I was guilty, and admitted it when he told me where the sign was. I simply missed it. If I see him again, I'll buy him a Starbucks or some such. The other 2 stops had to do with a tail light that was out, and the second was that I was in a line being checked for drunk drivers during a holiday. Neither time was a problem. A State Trooper who is married to one of my Pharmacy Technicians has said that he finds the CCW holders to be much more polite in traffic stops. He and I have talked many times about guns, and he says that most State Troopers he knows are in favor of CCW.

[Note, CCW is used for clarity here, because in Texas is is CHL for Concealed Handgun License]

[Leverdude]

All that is needed , are citizens willing to stand up for their Rights, in court!

That is what Krause did in the article...and he won, but the LE's will continue the harrassment irrelevant.

The problem is the citizen needs to pay for their lawyer & the PD's lawyer too. Cops would care about our rights alot more if it cost them money from their pockets. In most cases almost nothing a LEO does can result in anything more than a loss of their job, and in most cases of abuse of power nothing meaningful at all is done. Should be a crime & like crimes involving mere citizens ignorance of a law is no excuse.

[Leverdude]

If they can't handle it without taken their frustrations out on unarmed honest law abiding citizens,.. they should take a sabbatical, quit,...or be sued and then fired!

Problem is, they aren't fired. Not all of them anyway (although some departments are better at keeping the riffraff out than others).

They aren't sued either.

I'm not talking about what should be. I'm talking about what is.

Well, ...some Blacks, Hispanics, and other minorities have learned to sue the establishment, with rather good results! I don't think it a great leap of technical aptitude for the majority to learn as well!

Maybe more of the majority should be concentrating on making what SHOULD be ,... into what IS?


just one man's opinion.

Again theres the financial hurdle. Theres groups chomping at the bit to fund suits for minorities.
I think it would go far to do away with the concept of police unions & fraternity in what is simply another municipal job, not unlike public works or parks & rec etc. We put cops up on a pedestal, why are we surprised when some come to believe they are superior? This is not meant as a dig on ALL leo in any way, most I know are good guys I'm glad to have at my back, but many aren't.

[Old Ironsights]

... A State Trooper who is married to one of my Pharmacy Technicians has said that he finds the CCW holders to be much more polite in traffic stops. ...

An armed society is a polite society...

In large, I agree with PaulB.

You only "need" law ENFORCERS when there is a surplus of "laws" which need to be forced down people's throats.

When you have a society based upon peacable action only NON-peaceable action needs to be dealt with - and then mostly by the intended "victim".

I would much rather see/pay for a "criminal investigation service" than an "Enforcer".

I'll "enforce" the peace around me myself thank you very much.

[Mitch1352]

I agree with Firefuzz. I have been on the job 24 years, with the last 11 as a sergeant, in a county PD east of Atlanta. Part of me is nervous about the lack of training that most permit holders have, since there is no requirement for training here in Georgia. I don't want to get shot, not even by accident. Been there, done that.
That said, I strongly support an armed citizenry. I have had times where one has stopped to check on me, and although I didn't need the help, it was greatly appreciated. I had an occasion to have a good guy stop while I had a speeder on the shoulder. The driver was wanted and was getting kinda rowdy. This old boy in a truck stopped in front of me and got out with an 870. I saw that and wondered if I had remembered church that week and if I had fed the dog and if I had been nice to my wife and... Well, he quickly walked up and asked if I was ok. I said yes and the driver got polite real quick. He was arrested without incident. The good citizen was an accountant on the way home from work. I thanked him and he went on his way. I have also stopped to check on officers in similar circumstances, never saying I was LE. They were grateful and I drove on. I think it depends on where in the country you are: urban vs rural.

[firefuzz]

Times and conditions have changed so very much over the last thirty years. I was a street cop and deputy from '79-'84 and again from '90-'93. Even in that 10 year gap I could really tell a difference. BUT the one thing that hasn't changed...and the lack of this I blame on my fellow LEO's...is the fact that it takes no more effort to smile at someone during a glance their direction and no real effort to wave or wink at a youngster at a stop light or in a cafe than it back then. A lot, if not most, officers today develop a professional mask that says "stay back" that they wear whenever they put on the uniform no matter what the situation. Most don't include a smile which is unfortunate because a smile pleases gentle folk and disallusions the bad guy.

The officer that broke me in, they call them FTOs now..we didn't even know that phrase, was an old, retired WWII and Korean War vet. The VERY first thing he told me was that by just putting on the uniform I now had enemies that I didn't even know, but not to make an enemy out of someone that would be a friend by displaying a surly or superior attitude towards them. Second was to call everyone by their first name, either sir or ma'am, not out of an attitude of servitude but of respect for them as human beings. The third, and probably most important, was to grade yourself not on how many tickets you wrote or arrest you made but by the number of people you helped each day. I've carried that advice throughout both my careers as a LEO and firefighter and found it to serve me well. Probably the worst butt-chewing I ever handed out as a supervisor on the fire department was to a man that was having a bad day and was short with a child that came to the station to see the trucks. According to the others in the station it was quite suprising and memorable. Too many kids are raised that "the MAN" is the enemy, a smile in their direction goes a long way to offsetting that.

Unfortunately...manpower shortages, call volume and performance evaluations don't encourage this type of law enforcement any more, that and cities trying to use police departments for revenue generating agents rather than their true job as peace officers. Public relations is low on the totem pole for street officers. If you don't believe me just look at a personel evaluation form and ask some officers which item, less PR or less tickets and arrest, will get you a not-so-desireable chat from the shift sargeant. I'm glad this is not the case in my home town, being civil to the public, whenever possible, is not only expected but demanded by our police chief.

One thing I will say is that I've wittnessed in our state police academy over the last ten years is a marked effort to increase officer awareness in the area of good public relations. The main jest of this is that impressions made during contacts with the public last a life time for them, whenever possible is should be a good one.

Rob

[Aussie Chris]

Interesting topic. I am 'in the job' down here in Victoria.

Am probably what some of you here may term as a bit 'wet behind the ears' with a bit to learn, but I'm getting there. As we all do.

dbateman, dunno how they treat you up there in NT. Don't generalise Australia with your own bad experiences up there. Prehaps you would be so kind as to enlighten us here on your treatment. People will be treated how they treat others. Thats just the way humanity works mate. We are not all that bad mate There is a difference when it comes to the government and the Police. I get sick of members of the public telling me that the Police have done this, changed this law and that law. I don't agree with alot of things down here when it comes to firearm legislation, especially handguns. Hence the reason that I do not have a handgun licence yet, I would love a nice 1911 but I can't find the time to do the mandatory 10 shoots a year. When it comes to the experienced officers such as Kimwcook amd Griff I tend to listen and learn a little. As has been said there are, morons in everything. These morons cause the rest of us to look bad and it really pi$$es me off every time that happens. Then again there are great people kicking around too. Ive had plenty a chat with members of the public about shooting and hunting and getting permits and stuff. It's still funny that some are surprised when a Constable is giving advice on how to get ones firearms licence.

I am one of about 160 odd at a big station here in 'the big smoke'. There are about 6 that I know of that are shooters/hunters. Even, in the job it is surprising at how some of my collegues are surprised at my hunting/shooting.

Chris

[Malamute]

In the Rockies, most of the guys in law enforcement that I've run into are shooters and hunters. Some of my friends are in LE, and are among some of the most enthusiast shooters and hunters I know.

I was stopped in AZ years ago at night, on a lonely 2 lane highway. The Highway Patrol came about and stopped me on my motorcycle. Fisrt off he noticed the nickeled Colt's SAA on my belt, and the sheathed Winchester 1886 on the side of the bike. He took the Colt's pistol while he ran me, then came back,...."Is that bike really a 1947?" "Yep, that was part of my problem, the speedometer is broken (true story) and it isn't easy to find one for it". Next was the "Nice pistol, what's your rifle?"

We ended up talking for 20 minutes beside the road. He said he understood that it must be hard to find a speedometer for a bike that old. I just got a warning for the speeding stop.

Was stopped in Wy years later. Wasnt paying attention. When the Trooper came up, I said "I have a pistol on the seat" He asked if I had any other guns, I said I had a Winchester carbine behind the seat. He wasnt worried about the Winchester, but told me to hand him the pistol while he ran me. When he came back, he gave me my ticket, and handed me the pistol back, still loaded, still in the holster. I put it on the dash, and we talked for some time also. Very nice guy.

[Doc Hudson]

The only meaningful answer would be eliminate the 'permit' system entirely, and allow everyone to carry. If and when someone acted criminally or irresponsibly, THEN they could be charged.

The social 'good' to come of a permit system is that it gives LEO's one additional charge to use when arresting the hoodlem-type on something 'light' like vandalism or tresspass or making threats/assault or whatever, and our court system lets those people off in a heartbeat, otherwise. Adding 'unlicensed handgun possession' does help clear the streets a bit of those types, but it doesn't do that much good, and if the social 'harm' to a permit system is that the good guy has to walk down that street un-armed, then the 'permit' system should be scrapped. Perhaps that is unfortunate, but blame the anti-gun LEO's for destroying it, not the NRA.

I respect the LEO community, and 90% of the individuals in it, but you simply cannot have a stable and safe society for long if the collective citizenry (call it 'militia' or whatever) does not have the upper hand defensively against the armed agents of their government. Governments don't generally 'nuke' their own citizens, so it isn't a matter that free citizens need tanks and jets and bombs, but governments do regularly abuse their own citizens with arbitrary arrest, shakedowns, property seizures, etc. - things that a little potential 'pushback' could deter.

Bottom line - if the LEO's and their 'bosses' would be truly reasonable and allow CCW licensure to the ordinary, law-abiding citizen, the permit system could work just fine. When the LEO's start to abuse their ability to deny CCW permits, then THEY are causing a problem, and should lose their 'right' to decide who carries and who does not.

Some truly excellent points!

i will add one more problem between LEO agencies and the public. Property confiscation!

Some agencies have turned property confiscation into a big moneymaker. If you will remember "60 Minutes" did a segment on how some Louisiana PD's were making big bucks by pulling over high-dollar out of state cars for "Illegal Lane Changes" and then trumping up a pretext to steal their cars under Property confiscation in return for not pressing more seerious charges.

Some of you gents who are strongly in favor of the war on drugs might change your tune if one of your kids or grandkids gets busted for drugs in your home and the DA seizes the house under Property Confiscation laws. Don't sneer, it has happened and it is not a rare occurrence. And don't try to tell me that no one ever gets "snowflaked" or that Drug Dogs can't be made to make a false alert. It happens, and everyone knows it. It basically comes down to the fact that many departments are being corrupted by the profits of the War on Drugs, even if they are not taking dirty money from drug dealers.

Another problem is the fact that so many cops, especially the young ones and the new ones, think that their badge and baton are a crown and scepter. They don't just think they are above the law, they think they ARE the law.

I will be honest. My respect for and trust of policemen has greatly eroded over the last 25 years. I've seen police attitudes change from being everyone's friend and protector to the point that many act like they are too superior and know too much to have any regard for any lowly civilian. And the most arrogant LEO's I've ever encountered in my life are Mississippi State Troopers. All of them could stand to take some long and serious lessons from the Lawmen who frequent this forum.

Let's face fellows. If all the cops in the US had and used the good common sense and attitudes expressed by most Levergunner Lawmen, we'd all be a derned sight happier with our policemen.