Improper cycling of action - handling ...

[Don McDowell]

Short action bolt gun bolt won't get your nose,but a long action will come powerful close.

[20cows]

It's a type 99 Arisaka rechambered to 7.7-06.

[Don McDowell]

Never handled one of the Arisaka's , but I'm thinking you'll not be able to keep your sights while cycling the bolt. Especially from "field" position as your right hand is going to drop the support of the rifle to work the bolt, the butt will drop some and you'll instinctively lift your head.
Off a bench an 03A3 will cycle aimed rounds almost as fast as a garand, but when the benchrest isn't supporting the rifle things change.

[adirondakjack]

These days, with a lightly sprung, very slick action, this works


The action is about fully open in the pic, and you can tell by the smoke it ain't been long since the shot was tripped.

[Warhawk]

I don't necessarily pause to admire my shot, and I sure don't look down at the action. But I do take the butt off my shoulder slightly and mount the gun immediately after I've cycled the lever. This is partly being very conscious of keep my trigger finger out of the trigger guard to avoid getting it caught on the trigger.

I shot a nice buck in Kansas in December, and I remember seeing that big 45-70 empty brass on the ground and not remembering working the action, but sure enough there was a live round in the chamber. Thankfully I didn't need it.

I do almost the same with a bolt action, but there its mainly to get my face out of the way of the bolt. I'm pretty sure I do OK with the bolt gun as I've killed multiple running deer with one a few times.

[Modoc ED]

What problems would those be? I find serious shooting, very much fun!

I doubt if you'd have much fun if someone were shooting back. That is about as serious as I can think of at the moment.

Ain't noth'n like hunt'n man, Doc!

I'm sorry "76/444" but that reply just strikes me wrong this morning. That is a pretty lame thing to say. I'm not saying you're lame or anything like that but that statement is just plain silly and then to follow it up with a "cool" smilie just ads to it's lameness.

I don't know what your background is (i.e., military or maybe in Viet Nam) but to say "hunt'n man" is way over the top. I don't know anyone from the service that got any pleasure or thought it was cool to stalk, snipe, or shoot someone.

This thread is about cycling guns not hunting and killing people.

Now that's just my .02¢

Feel free to flame me.

[madman4570]

Modoc ED,

I think 76/444 just means "serious" as in a serious shooting competition like at a match????????

[Modoc ED]

Probably so but that's an odd way to discuss shooting a match.

76/444 is a good guy but I just thought that statement was a bit lame.

He'll be along to flame me in a little bit and that's ok.

[Don McDowell]

Well said Modoc. I have no tolerance for the open advocacy of shooting another human for fun.

[76/444]

What problems would those be? I find serious shooting, very much fun!

I doubt if you'd have much fun if someone were shooting back. That is about as serious as I can think of at the moment.

Ain't noth'n like hunt'n man, Doc!

I'm sorry "76/444" but that reply just strikes me wrong this morning. That is a pretty lame thing to say. I'm not saying you're lame or anything like that but that statement is just plain silly and then to follow it up with a "cool" smilie just ads to it's lameness.

I don't know what your background is (i.e., military or maybe in Viet Nam) but to say "hunt'n man" is way over the top. I don't know anyone from the service that got any pleasure or thought it was cool to stalk, snipe, or shoot someone.

This thread is about cycling guns not hunting and killing people.

Now that's just my .02¢

Feel free to flame me.

I believe it was YOU DOC,.... that was the very first member to post about a NONE target shooting reference in this subject .....

Doc wrote:..."I doubt if you'd have much fun if someone were shooting back."

,... I merely replied to YOUR initiated sub topic, with my opinion to YOUR statement. Take it or leave it.

[mikld]

Well, this topic has grown to 4 pages and I have not heard of why lowering a rifle from the shoulder to cycle is "improper" or "wrong" or considered a "bad habit". Most have stated "I do it this way...", and the personal attacks have started (I'm sure I'll get straightened out about this statement). But no answer as to "WHY". Perhaps we need a sticky on "This is the Proper Way to Shoot a Levergun", but who is going to write it and who ya gonna believe?

[nemhed]

This discussion reminds me why I need to get a Marlin Mountie and set it up just like my Marlin 1894 in 44 mag. Like others I'm removing the rifle from my shoulder after a shot in order to grab that brass before it hits the ground. Lots of practice with a .22 right before hunting season should break that habit and into the mindset of reloading and immediately getting back on target. Many of my hunting practices come from years of muzzleloader hunting. I 'm always very sure of my first shot and I've seldom had the opportunity or need to fire a second shot when deer hunting.

[RKrodle]

Well, this topic has grown to 4 pages and I have not heard of why lowering a rifle from the shoulder to cycle is "improper" or "wrong" or considered a "bad habit". Most have stated "I do it this way...", and the personal attacks have started (I'm sure I'll get straightened out about this statement). But no answer as to "WHY". Perhaps we need a sticky on "This is the Proper Way to Shoot a Levergun", but who is going to write it and who ya gonna believe?

Here's my opinion on it, and I'm not trying to straighten you or any one else out on the subject. I believe most firearms can be traced back to militarily needs and development, and that repeaters be they bolt action, lever, pump, semi auto or full auto were designed to be kept in the shoulder so that sight alignment can be maintained for quick follow up shots. At least that is the way I was taught in the Marines way back when. I think it holds over into hunting also. If you talk to some of the African PH's they will tell you that is their biggest complaint about American hunters is they shoot and take the rifle down to admire their shot instead of keeping the rifle in the shoulder and putting another bullet in the animal to insure it is down and does not result in a long and possibly dangers tracking job. I do it because I've seen a lot of animals that where "hit good" run off and may never be seen again. My rule for me is I keep shooting til the animal is on the ground no matter what the animal. I believe it is the ethical and responsible thing to do. So, therefore that is the way I normally practice. Now if I'm working up groups and/or using the chronograph I don't shoot that way. I look at shooting as it relates to hunting and self defense and tend to practice that way. I never rely on one shot to do the job. I believe it is better to lose a pound or two of meat then to lose the whole animal. Just my opinion.

[86er]

My post title was intentionally put that way to evoke responses and opinions. I purposely called it a "bad habit" to get the folks that don't agree to speak their mind. Most actions were not designed to be open or closed delicately. The very mechanism that extracts, ejects and/or feeds relies on the energy and momentum of the bolt movement to accomplish its task (regardless of the action type). The shooters I spoke with were all practicing for field shooting - that was the purpose of the specific range session. I found it interesting that a few of us were shucking and shooting and others were doing it different. If I asked a lame question or did not "fuel the fire" I would not have gotten so many of the excellent replies. Somewhere there was a sneer about hunting inside a high fence. If that dig was aimed at me, you are off course. I've taken just over 650 big game animals throughout the world and exactly 36 introduced species that are recognized by SCI's Introduced Trophies of North America catagory were taken inside a fenced environment. Otherwise, I appreciate the responses from both sides.

[Buck Elliott]

Is it a "Bad Habit...?"

IMNSHO --- YES!

There you have it. For all the reasons mentioned by many responders.

Does that make it WRONG...?

Again, IMNSHO --- YES!

That kinda foolishness can cost you your life, or at minimum a wounded game animal...

YMMV...

[madman4570]

I am kind of interested how their shots turned out?
These guy's were probably just pot shooting.,then just said yep, we are practicing field shooting.
Honestly who is to say really what is right for someone else,unless they say in detail what they intend to practice for ? and even then I don't know on that one?

They could be practicing many different things like for example a ---------First shot from a stalk etc. ??
Honestly,at our range when the guy's are shooting their guns------no,many times they don't just pull up and empty their gun in a suto type rapid fire mode. If you tell me that it's not that and a slow fire then I will say leaving it up at the shoulder more than what's required except for the proper follow through time might not always be the best solution either.

We do have some special spring loaded steel targets we made(bear/deer/human) that represent an animal/person requiring numerous rapid shots to keep the animal down(last two benches on the right usually used for that stuff)

We also have a tire hill setup generally used by the handgun shooters for rapid shots also.

Honestly, I am no expert and I cannot say what is right for anyone except myself and family!
Don't want that responsiblilty.

[76/444]

I don't believe this way of handling a levergun has anything to do with individual preferences,... unless someone has a physical disability.

The levergun is a tool. All tools are designed and manufactured to be used in mostly one specific manner.

I could list a multitude of ways individuals improperly use all kinds of tools, from the common hammer to a fork,... but that does not make it right.

One last point,... it seems some here have acquired a mental concept that retaining a shoulder weld is for the purpose of RAPID FIRE. That may be one angle to present to try and minimize the need for a proper shouldered weapon,... but really isn't the case in the majority of instances.

As has been posted,... most hunting only requires a single well placed shot. The point of RETAINING a shoulder to stock position while cycling another round is for proper follow up shooting,.... even if it is not needed.

I don't think anyone in agreement of this technique, is trying to promote "RAPID" firings of a levergun, in this thread. Just proper use of the tool.

When I hunted, I noticed that 'concussion' sometimes plays a big role in the bringing down of an animal. I have had a few instances where the shock/concussion of the bullet would bring the animal down, but before I could get upon it, it would recover and take off. Shooting , chambering another round while keeping sights on as I approach a downed animal,... was just standard procedure taught to me by my father when I was a boy. I was taught to never take my sights off what I was killing, from the very first shot, until I was absolutely sure it was dead.

[Buck Elliott]

Very much so.

Shoot until you know it's dead, then shoot again, until IT knows it's dead.

[Don McDowell]

So let me get this straight....You're going to go from your firing point across a distance , let's say 100 yds, with your rifle cocked and locked, in firing position, with your full concentration on the sights? Sounds to me like a good way to get your feet crossed into a stick or step in a hole and blow your own head or foot off. Or worse yet somebody else takes the round.

[madman4570]

Joe,
I assume you mean like this, only working the action slower?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLhlSys-_ao

[76/444]

Hmmmm,... make a note to self,.......................................never go hunting with Don McDowell.

[Buck Elliott]

C'mon Don...

Don't get tangled up in semantics of your own making.

Who said anything about covering ground with a cocked rifle at the shoulder?

("Let me have men about me who are fat, sleek-headed men. Yon Cassius has that lean and hungry look. Such men are dangerous..." Julius Caeser )

[Doc Hudson]

What problems would those be? I find serious shooting, very much fun!

I doubt if you'd have much fun if someone were shooting back. That is about as serious as I can think of at the moment.

Ain't noth'n like hunt'n man, Doc!

You got that right!

And if I never have to do it again for he rest of my life I'll be purely pleased.

But what really gets your adrenalin pumping and your bunghole puckering is being hunted.

I don't recommend it for entertainment.

[RKrodle]

Kinda like this as for as practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LFwiTfKFEE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uGICBfDFdQ&NR=1

[FWiedner]

My preferred method is to put a bullet where I believe it will have the greatest effect, measure the result of that shot, and then repeat if necessary. SOMETIMES, I will take a rifle out of my shoulder to get a better view of the subject of concern.

I've never been a fan of "hosing down" my target with bullets, and unless I am tasked with providing some level of covering or diversionary fire, I'd look on this practice to be an indicator of poor fire discipline.

I don't mind giving an animal time to die. That said, neither do I relish the idea of chasing a wounded animal. I really do try to anchor or wound as greivously as possible with that first round. If I think that taking a shot will result in anything but a gut-pile, I don't take the shot.

As to whether a PH feels he is justified to bad-mouth his client's preferred technique, all I can say is pi$$ on 'em, who works for whom? Maybe he can "politely suggest" a better technique. It would likely be appreciated by some and not by others. It's all in the delivery, I guess.

[FWiedner]

Kinda like this as for as practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LFwiTfKFEE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uGICBfDFdQ&NR=1

That's an excellent exercise. I've not ever been on a DG hunt.

[RKrodle]

Hey Fred, that PH is the one who will go put an end to that wounded and upset Cape Buffalo that his client wounded, and is now looking for who done it so it can stump a mud hole in somebody.

[RKrodle]

Kinda like this as for as practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LFwiTfKFEE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uGICBfDFdQ&NR=1

That's an excellent exercise. I've not ever been on a DG hunt.

That's as close to DG as I've been or will probably ever get. It's a lot of fun.

[madman4570]

How about where the bullets hit on that! That barrel was moving around pretty good on that!
Defintely not easy, Good job Joe!

[Don McDowell]

Shooting , chambering another round while keeping sights on as I approach a downed animal,... .

Buck you really ought to pay attention to "symantics".

[madman4570]

Ok, Let me jump in here. Guy's come on! This is just a Forum,(though a great one) let's not let it get between friends.
I have no doubt that all you guy's are great shots/hunter's and would be proud to hunt with any of you guy's.
I know you respect each other more than that.We are just discusiing preferred methods.Even if I agree or don't agree I respect you guy's and I sure know you guy's also respect each other.

Heck, really I have a lot to learn about Lever Actions and view each one of your guy's as somthing to think about. It's not worth going against each other.

And yes I am trying to practice what I preach from now on

P.S. Yes,Joe could whip my rear I bet on that DG event!
Let's Group Hug!

[AmBraCol]

OK guys. Step back form the keyboard. Take a deep breath. Click on a username - use the "Foe" option. Henceforward you'll be spared the pain of knowing that person exists. See how much easier it is on you?

[Modoc ED]

OK guys. Step back form the keyboard. Take a deep breath. Click on a username - use the "Foe" option. Henceforward you'll be spared the pain of knowing that person exists. See how much easier it is on you?

They just need to chill Paul. If they hit that foe button, they'll miss out on a lot of good stuff posted down the line in other threads.

I'm not taking any sides here or taking the teachers side either. Like I said earlier in this thread. The proper way to handle a rifle is up to every individuals taste as long as it's done safely.

[AmBraCol]

They just need to chill Paul. If they hit that foe button, they'll miss out on a lot of good stuff posted down the line in other threads.

This is true. And Hobie and I will miss out on sorting through "who started it" when we find reports from every side on a dust up claiming "HE isn't playing nice." I must be a sucker for punishment. The kids left home but here on the forum sometimes it's like they're still here and nine years old. And once more, my attempts at humor seem to fall flat. Thank God I still have a day job!

[Lastmohecken]

Well, I think most people will agree that it is usually the first shot that counts for the most, and we all want to make that first shot count. Our goal is to see the animal drop on the first shot, hopefully so fast that the gun is still in recoil, as the animal bits the dust.

But lets put all of that aside for just a minute. There are still times, when a quick second or even third or more shots are needed. Not spray and pray, because that rarely works out, but quick aimed shots can still often save the day.

Now, lets say you have 10 seconds, (and it might even be a lot less) before your chance is gone to bag that once in a lifetime buck, or keep something big and mad from comming over to discuss the matter up close and personal with you. Bottom line is if you keep you face down on the stock, butt to you shoulder, and work that action fast and sure, instead of dropping you rifle lower first, you will have more time to aim you next shot inside of that 10 second time frame.

[RKrodle]

This entire thing is assinine. The original post of this mess never mentioned "hunting" at any point in time. I don't think theres anybody here that would disagree with the need to be prepared for a follow up shot in a hunting situation. BUT HUNTING was never ever mentioned until we got into the silliness about "huntin man is fun" and guns are only made for killing people, and some of the other nonsense that seems to have spewed forth.

Don, I must of missed it, maybe edited or deleted, but where was it said that "guns are only made for killing people"? And as far as hunting I guess I just assumed ( I know, I know, not a good thing) that it was about hunting. Knowing 86er and that he has a one track mind that revolves around hunting.

[Lastmohecken]

Maybe 86er's first post didn't mention hunting, but I think it was implied that, one should practice, like he should be shooting under hunting conditions. Otherwise, everyone has been wasting a lot of time dicussing it. Paper bullseyes, don't usually charge or run off, and require a second shot in a hurry, unless it under a timer in a match.

It's been proven, time and again, that people usually preform as they have trained. If you have always lowered your gun, to cycle the next round, then you will very likely do the same when it really counts, for more then punching holes in paper, but that doesn't mean that you have to always keep the gun at the shoulder when target shooting.

So really, what is there left to argue about?

[TedH]

You fellers are gonna get another thread locked if you keep up this childish name calling and bickering. This much discussion and arguing over something so personal is pointless. If a man at the range wants to lower his rifle to cycle the action, so what????? It's HIS business! It's nobody else's place to tell him he's using his rifle in a poor or incorrect manner. If he misses an opportunity at a needed second shot come deer season, well then maybe he's learned a lesson and will do it different next trip to the range, or maybe not.

[shooter]

Maybe we all just need to get out for some range/woods time to calm the nerves. I know I do. I have a brand new lever I got at Christmas that hasn't been shot yet. That will frustrate anyone!! I know there are some opinionated folks on here, and I are one , but sometimes I think we just need to agree to disagree. We all have our own way of doing things, and as long as they're safe, there's nothing wrong with it. There may be certain techniques better suited for certain situations, but that is up to each individual shooter to decide what works for him in each situation. I think my ways are best for me unless someone comes along and shows me a better way, and I think most of us are like that, but we shouldn't get our feathers ruffled because someone thinks different. Just a young, inexperienced guy's opinion.

[AmBraCol]

OK guys - let it die. And learn to keep a civil keyboard. Personal attacks are NOT allowed on the forum. Get a grip. Chill. Relax. Get a life. Whatever it takes - just don't bring your coarse behavior to this forum. Behave as you will in your own home, but this is not the place for anti-social behavior and we won't tolerate it. There are plenty of forums where such an atmosphere is apparently even encouraged - this is one of the places that insist on polite and civil discourse.