OT - Historically correct movies

KCSO · Post by **KCSO** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:16 pm

Been there done that and spent a lot of time talking to a fellow who supplies guns for the movies. Here's why John Wayne carried a M92. Lawyers! The saftey rules are so stringent and there is so much pressure o the prop department that they only want guns that are easy to blank and easy to check. The thought of loose black powder and a muzzleloader treeify them and for good reason. Al it takes for somone to die for real is for someone, anyone to drop a piece of rock down a charged gun. At least with ctg guns you can open the breech and blow down the tube for ever shot. The rules and precautions on say Last of the Mohicans was about the most stringent ever used in filming. Everytinme a M/L misfired it was an hour delay while the gun was emptied, cleaned and recharged for another take, then the prop man had to hold on to the gun until it was ready to be used. Since even the extra's were getting $50-75 and hour and there might be 20-or more people in a scene figure the cost ves. JW fighting the civil war with trapdoos and M92's. The B movies couldn't afford to be too authentic.

As to Larry McMurty, how many times did Louis have a Sackett notch someone's ear with a 44-40 at 400 yards? Never let histroy come into conflict with a good story!

Rexster · Post by **Rexster** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:32 pm

I always like to see the weapons and prop be historically correct. I can understand changing the plot a bit, as the real event is often just so complicated and drawn-out. Composite characters are also sometimes necessary to keep it all understandable while maintaining brevity.

What irks me is when something is presented as historic, and the plot bears no relation to the truth.

I am also irritated when a real person did something really notable and worthy of praise, and in the movie, his character is not shown performing that act or actions. The movie "Zulu Dawn" is an example. The character of Mr. Verecker, played by Simon Ward, rode out of the main camp a horse, with the two lieutenants that were trying to save the colors. He is pinned when his horse falls, and as the Zulus run away with the colors, he shoots the one carrying the colors, so they fall into the river. The movie does not reveal his fate, but it implied he might have made it to safety. In reality, he caught a loose horse in the camp, which would have enabled him to escape the massacre, but then a lower-ranking soldier, a native, IIRC, approached and said the loose horse was his. Mr. Verecker, a blue-blooded son of a lord, nobly relinquished the horse to the lower-ranking soldier, and died in the massacre, on foot.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:45 pm

Ed Harris's new APPALOOSA is about as authentic as they come, from guns to saddles to clothing. Can hardly wait for it to come out on DVD so I can check out a couple details I may have missed watching it on the big screen the first time.

But only a dedicated masochist would lug along a 36" 8-ga. double, that weighs in at around 11 pounds and swings like a corral gate...

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:18 pm

Just a late thought...

Watch the SADDLES... Look for Blevins-type buckles on the stirrup leathers. A definite no-no...

Quilted/padded seats and/or low cantles with extreme 'cheyenne' rolls... GAAKKK!!!

Mini-Vibram boot soles...

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:17 am

Old Savage wrote:I believe Wyatt threatened to turn Ike's head into a canoe with a Smith and Wesson in Tombstone. Clint Eastwood uses a number of period pieces in his films.

I enjoy seeing the "mistakes" as a point of hollywood movie making.

I recall one contrail in and old cowboy movie. The reality is they are movies which are fake to begin with.

.......which would have ruined a top break in one whack!

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:20 am

bogus bill wrote:Go see "september dawn". Its about the mountain meadows massacure in 9-11-1857. (the 1st 9-11). The mormans and indians massacured a wagon train killing about 122 people. Jon Voight is in it. I have studied the incident as much as possible and the story line is accurate. Of course there was a love story built into it that I dont belive happened.
My wifes stepmother is a direct decendant of John Doyle Lee, the ONLY person exicuted for his part. Hence my intrest in the event. He deserved his exicution, but was the scapegoat for others that should have been shot too.
The movie is accurarte as far as it went but there was far more to the story. About 20+ kids that were to young to remember in the party were adopted by local mormans near cedar city.
This last thanksgiveing my wife and I went to southern california by my stepdaughters. Her fiances mother was there as was my stepmother. They never met before. In conversation we found that the woman was a decendant of one of the orphans saved from the massacure!

When I was engaged to a girl in Riverton, Utah, her grandparents thought they were gonna convert me to being a Mormon, so they took me downtown to see the movie about the migration. Her grandad was kinda upset at my comment about there being a lot of history they left out!

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:23 am

Ben_Rumson wrote:Besides all of the gear gaffs in movies..There's a couple of other outrageous gaffs that have stuck in my memory that make me chuckle.. In some Cowboy & Indian movie.. two braves talking..one has a Brooklyn accent!! The other was a cop TV show.. The M.E. recovers the bloody bullet from the dead victim...Only trouble is, the camera zooms in on a complete 3006 round with blood on it!!!

I HATE it when they pull out a bullet, don't bother to measure it, then proclaim that it came from a .357 magnum, .38 special, 9mm, or, in a recent case, I saw, "from a .357 GLOCK!!!"

piller · Post by **piller** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:52 am

I also don't remember seeing very many .45-70 carbines which many Civil War veterans would have brought home, and were fairly common for a while. I guess they were not cool enough for Hollywood.

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:20 am

Well Travis, I believe he was going to shoot him but I did wonder where they came up with some of the phrases - whether historical or creative writing.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:44 am

Old Savage wrote:Well Travis, I believe he was going to shoot him but I did wonder where they came up with some of the phrases - whether historical or creative writing.

Yeah, I guess one of those old soft lead bullets up close COULD put a canoe track in someone's head!

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:51 am

Pillar, I dont belive the 45/70 existed durring the civil war yet. That came out a little later. I once owned a sharps 50/70 carbine that was converted after the civil war. They were a popular conversion. The main caliber was 58 or 52. The sharps were sleeved.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:12 pm

They say that if you look at many of the early non-talking Westerns you will see a lot of authenticity because the actors were being advised by men like Charles Siringo, who lived as actual Cowboys/Lawmen during the Day. Seems to be so.

The stuff that doesn't belong in modern movies bothers me too. But, with movies like Unforgiven, Open Range, Ride with the Devil, Lonsome Dove, Tom Selleck and Sam Elliotts
many movies....etc....we are pretty fortunate to have the movies that we do. The bar has been raised significantly since the 70's, authenticity wise. Hope they continue with the trend.

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:15 pm

Just no jet contrails etc.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:29 pm

bogus bill wrote:Pillar, I dont belive the 45/70 existed durring the civil war yet. That came out a little later. I once owned a sharps 50/70 carbine that was converted after the civil war. They were a popular conversion. The main caliber was 58 or 52. The sharps were sleeved.

.45-70 dates from 1873...

Dewight · Post by **Dewight** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:38 pm

The more knowledgable I become the less enjoyable movies become, unless the story or the charactors are compelling. With a strong charactor or good story I can over look inappropriate props or impossible physical actions, otherwiseI spend the whole movie picking it apart.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:07 pm

bogus bill wrote:Just no jet contrails etc.

When you get to picking on stuff like that, you're just being TOO picky!

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Ysabel Kid wrote:
Gun Smith wrote: My second peeve is, of course, the 250 round magazines on sub machineguns, or the Colt SAA 26 gun.
I always wanted me one of those fancy 26-shot Colt's!!!

You mean an H-bar?

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:50 pm

KCSO wrote:Been there done that and spent a lot of time talking to a fellow who supplies guns for the movies. Here's why John Wayne carried a M92. Lawyers! The saftey rules are so stringent and there is so much pressure o the prop department that they only want guns that are easy to blank and easy to check. The thought of loose black powder and a muzzleloader treeify them and for good reason. Al it takes for somone to die for real is for someone, anyone to drop a piece of rock down a charged gun. At least with ctg guns you can open the breech and blow down the tube for ever shot. The rules and precautions on say Last of the Mohicans was about the most stringent ever used in filming. Everytinme a M/L misfired it was an hour delay while the gun was emptied, cleaned and recharged for another take, then the prop man had to hold on to the gun until it was ready to be used. Since even the extra's were getting $50-75 and hour and there might be 20-or more people in a scene figure the cost ves. JW fighting the civil war with trapdoos and M92's. The B movies couldn't afford to be too authentic.

As to Larry McMurty, how many times did Louis have a Sackett notch someone's ear with a 44-40 at 400 yards? Never let histroy come into conflict with a good story!

That idiot ALWAYS had a cowhand riding a studhorse, and continually diving off of it, because he saw the sun shining on a rifle barrel or front sight. What a moron.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:55 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:Just a late thought...

Watch the SADDLES... Look for Blevins-type buckles on the stirrup leathers. A definite no-no...

Quilted/padded seats and/or low cantles with extreme 'cheyenne' rolls... GAAKKK!!!

Mini-Vibram boot soles...

What about all the nylon ropes, rubber horn wraps, and rayon cinches? Also, rubber slickers, cattleman crease or gambler style hats, or that idiotic "Tuscon" shape that Stetson puts out! .......I believe you and I could ruin a perfectly good western!

Did anyone else vomit more than once while watching "Hidalgo"?

HATCHETTJACK · Post by **HATCHETTJACK** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:03 pm

i dont pay a lot of attention to the periodness of the guns... but where do they get off on throwing all those guns on the ground.

i have to hide my xlr 45-70's muzzle so it doesnt upset him

and promise to him i would never do that to him... and i know im not the only one packing when watching these movies

my wife thinks im nuts

shes prolly right

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:20 pm

HATCHETTJACK wrote:i dont pay a lot of attention to the periodness of the guns... but where do they get off on throwing all those guns on the ground.

Yeah! And along the same lines, how about the complete and total disregard for even the most rudimentary efforts at safety, muzzle discipline, etc.

I also am surprised at how cast lead bullets apparently will not penetrate even the flimsiest barrier.

HATCHETTJACK · Post by **HATCHETTJACK** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:26 pm

Otto wrote:
HATCHETTJACK wrote:i dont pay a lot of attention to the periodness of the guns... but where do they get off on throwing all those guns on the ground.
Yeah! And along the same lines, how about the complete and total disregard for even the most rudimentary efforts at safety, muzzle discipline, etc.

I also am surprised at how cast lead bullets apparently will not penetrate even the flimsiest barrier.

yeah, the ol hide behind the water trough trick

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:34 pm

HATCHETTJACK wrote:
Otto wrote:
HATCHETTJACK wrote:i dont pay a lot of attention to the periodness of the guns... but where do they get off on throwing all those guns on the ground.
Yeah! And along the same lines, how about the complete and total disregard for even the most rudimentary efforts at safety, muzzle discipline, etc.

I also am surprised at how cast lead bullets apparently will not penetrate even the flimsiest barrier.
yeah, the ol hide behind the water trough trick

I like the standard stagecoach chase, where the bad-guys sling about 150 rounds at the coach from behind, and somehow manage to hit the driver, but nobody inside gets a scratch. Aren't stagecoach body panels made of thin wood veneer, almost like paneling?

Also, were horses bred differently back then? Everybody rides at a full gallop every where they go, for miles and miles. I'm pretty sure that would kill the weaker stock we have nowadays.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:21 am

HATCHETTJACK wrote:
Otto wrote:
HATCHETTJACK wrote:i dont pay a lot of attention to the periodness of the guns... but where do they get off on throwing all those guns on the ground.
Yeah! And along the same lines, how about the complete and total disregard for even the most rudimentary efforts at safety, muzzle discipline, etc.

I also am surprised at how cast lead bullets apparently will not penetrate even the flimsiest barrier.
yeah, the ol hide behind the water trough trick

Actually, that works.... if there's water in it! What gets me is when some guys hides behind a poker table, like in "The Shootist", and it absorbs dozens of bullets, with no injury to the guy hiding behind it. It's even worse in war movies, where you know they're using rounds that would penetrate, like 9mm and .30 cals.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:38 am

Otto wrote:I like the standard stagecoach chase, where the bad-guys sling about 150 rounds at the coach from behind, and somehow manage to hit the driver, but nobody inside gets a scratch. Aren't stagecoach body panels made of thin wood veneer, almost like paneling?

Also, were horses bred differently back then? Everybody rides at a full gallop every where they go, for miles and miles. I'm pretty sure that would kill the weaker stock we have nowadays.

Stagecoaches were typically built from very thin Poplar, so paneling would be a rough comparison. Another thing is, most folks couldn't hit a stagecoach driver from behind while sitting on a horse, even if the horse and coach were standing still, as the front of the coach sits lower than the rear.

As for running the horses everywhere, that always annoys me, too. The horses were bred just the same back then~stud on top!

Every time I've ridden off into the sunset, I ended up riding back home in the dark!

Les Staley · Post by **Les Staley** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:13 pm

One to watch for.. In the second version of "Stagecoach" , the one that stars Stephanie Powers as the leading lady, in one scene at a stage stop, during some conversation between the actors, if you watch the far away hillside, you can see a white pickup truck driveing down a road, dust and all... Les

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:28 pm

Travis Morgan wrote: As for running the horses everywhere, that always annoys me, too. The horses were bred just the same back then~stud on top!

Every time I've ridden off into the sunset, I ended up riding back home in the dark!

Here's another question: why does shooting the rider make the horse fall down?

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:04 am

They shot the horse. Horses are a hell of a lot easier to hit.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:36 am

Travis Morgan wrote:They shot the horse. Horses are a hell of a lot easier to hit.

First of all, that would be against the Code of The West. Second, I'm talking about when a rider arches his back and throws his arms in the air, as though shot in the back, and the horse suddenly noses into the ground, or rolls over like a cockroach but jumps right back to his feet.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:56 am

Why is it that people from the east insist on telling everyone else about the "code of the west", or the "cowboy way"? If someone's trying to kill me, shooting their horse is one of the LEAST things I'll do to them, if at all possible.

As someone who's had horses go down with me, you definitely try to "get loose", and land as far as possible from the horse. A broken leg(or arm or head) is darned serious, when there's no doctor waitin' in the stands.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:21 am

Travis Morgan wrote:Why is it that people from the east insist on telling everyone else about the "code of the west", or the "cowboy way"? If someone's trying to kill me, shooting their horse is one of the LEAST things I'll do to them, if at all possible.

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about moooviiieees.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:43 am

Ohio was the old "west" - the frontier as it were at one time.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:47 am

Old Savage wrote:Ohio was the old "west" - the frontier as it were at one time.

I thought anywhere outside of Manhattan was considered "frontier country."

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:59 am

I can just imagine the entries in your diary from a journey west:

Crossed the mighty Mississipee today. No cell coverage. Haven't seen a Starbucks in the last 200 miles. It's rough, out here on the frontier!

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:11 am

I have never been to Starbuck's, and I don't think there is one within 40 miles. I thought we were having a good-natured talk about movie "reality." If you feel the need to start hurling insults, then I'll just say, "Have a nice day."

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:18 am

My journey west originally took me from the east side of the Delaware river to the south side of the Susquehanna river in Wilkes Barre, Pa, then back across the Delaware to NJ again - a brief stint in Louisiana at Ft Polk then back to NJ but then (and you might be psychic) to the western shores of the (you guessed it) "mighty Mississip" at Davenport, Ia. Then to Californy then back to Ia. Then back to Ca. with a honeymoon trip coast to coast twice Maine to Ca. sandwiched in - lets not forget trips to Minnesota and Wisconson. All the while -------- looking for "the Golden Arches" or the Burger King signs off the freeway exits.

No Starbucks back then and still no cell phone. Wife won't allow it.

But I do have $1.86 left on a Starbucks gift card given to me by my personal barrista.

Still trying to find out what a Tucson style hat is.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:51 am

Otto wrote:I have never been to Starbuck's, and I don't think there is one within 40 miles. I thought we were having a good-natured talk about movie "reality." If you feel the need to start hurling insults, then I'll just say, "Have a nice day."

Man, you YANKEES get riled easy! The previous comment was in response to your comment about "anything outside Manhattan". No need to get bent. And, FYI, NRA or a bunch of gun owners needs to buy Starbuck's, so I won't feel so darn guilty every time I get a White Chocolate Mocha latte'.

Savage,

The Tuscon is similar to your hat, but with a little bitty brim. It's put out by Stetson, and I've seen 'em in the Shepler's and Drysdale's catalogs.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:52 am

OMG! http://stetson.com/hatforobama.php

Another reason for me to keep wearing Resistols!

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:53 am

Travis Morgan wrote: YANKEES

There you go with the insults again.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:54 am

Savage, pretty much this shape: http://www.sheplers.com/hats/wool_felt_hats/096279.html

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:55 am

Otto wrote:
Travis Morgan wrote: YANKEES
There you go with the insults again.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:59 am

Travis, thanks for the link, mine is a Dobbs Fifth Avenue of New York City.

lucky at the races, picked 4 of the first five winners

and had two dollars on the nose of each won 94 dollars minus the 8 to bet the last four races. Last time my wife won 90 I wore a hat from Catalina Island and picked a series of last place horses.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:05 pm

Just checked here and I have a Rancher 6x in Mist Grey and a Morgan (we call that "all hat no cattle").

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:52 pm

That Tucson looks like a modified fedora to me.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:52 pm

I am watching The Good, the Bad and the Ugly right now. In the scene at the hotel, when Blondie is cleaning his revolver, it sure does look like a nylon brush he is using in the cylinder chambers.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:25 pm

I'd noticed that, too. I can't think of anything else that woulda been available back then that would look like that.

J35 · Post by **J35** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:00 pm

Anyone notice the Hell Bitch in Lonesome Dove is a gelding.

I have also noticed in a few modern non western movies they like to use the word cordite for modern gunpowder.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:20 pm

I think my favorite still has to be the wristwatch-wearing Roman soldier from Spartacus... who is also carrying a decorated Pompeii pattern Gladius (79 AD) rather than than the more appropriate Gladius Hispanicus (200 BC to 20 BC)...

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:25 pm

Yup.

Reminds me of a time when I was working as head wrangler for an outfitter. We had one kid named Cody guiding for us. Fresh out of the Marines, and a real arrogant idiot. Well, every morning, he'd constantly ask me which saddles went with which horses, which horse was which, etc.. ....which is fine, for the first week. After that, you need to start learning. We were a coupla months in.

Well, one morning, I was already pretty busy, and he asks me, "Is this Ruthie?". Ruthie was the only female mule in camp, and he darn well knew it. The hunters, the boss, and everyone but the cook was standing around when I asked, "Does it have a pecker?!?!" .......silence. Laconically, I inquired, "Well?" "No", he grumbled. I replied,"Well, then it sure as HELL ain't Ruthie!"

After that, he started to learn.