MLV's Blown up Colt SAA 45

[Pat C]

Was looking back on one of my favorite MLV books ,Shooting Colt Single Actions. In the book he talks about a 1914 SAA that came apart during a shooting session. Only guessing as to the cause.

[GunnyMack]

I saw the blown up SBH that John Gallagher had detonate in his hands. He came back into the machine shop, ears ringing and in minor shock, white as a sheet. Thankfully he nor the guys watching were hurt!
The cylinder was in pieces to parts unknown, top strap bent up and forward. One piece hit the test fire steel door, gouged it and pushed it open from 90°to the full 180° it would open.

[Walt]

I have heard of detonations in large capacity rifle cartridges loaded with moderate charges of medium burning rate rifle powders but detonations in handguns for any reason other than wrong powder, double charges of powder, barrel obstructions etc. are news to me. I don't doubt him but Venturino's story is a first.

[JimT]

I have heard of detonations in large capacity rifle cartridges loaded with moderate charges of medium burning rate rifle powders but detonations in handguns for any reason other than wrong powder, double charges of powder, barrel obstructions etc. are news to me. I don't doubt him but Venturino's story is a first.

There was a lot of discussion and arguments about this in the 1960's/70's. It has never been duplicated in laboratory trials that I am aware of. P.O. Ackley spent a lot of time trying to blow rifles with a detonation and never was successful. Those who are totally convinced of it are as adamant about it as those who are not.

[AJMD429]

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As strong as a Super Blackhawk is, I wouldn't want to be near one that kaboomed....

Its the same reason bullpup rifles other than 22LR make me nervous... I'm sure a 308 kabooming 10 inches from ones face is horrible, but if it is against your right cheek it has to be worse.

[GunnyMack]

The Gallagher gun was a SBH 357 Maximum that he rebarreled into what we lovingly called the 458 Big Fish( two Johns working on it, Gallagher and John Peich- pike - fish) anyhow they were cutting down 348 brass to about 1.75" and seating 400gr 458 bullets. I don't remember if JG had turned a new cylinder or just bored out the factory. They were checking out suitable powders and obviously that load wasn't it!

[Walt]

Years ago I used to make up plinking loads in my m70 in .375 H&H using small charges of IMR3031 behind 260gr cast bullets but considering that this was apparently the perfect formula for a detonation, I cut up toilet paper sheets into fourths and stuffed a piece on top of the powder to hold it against the flash hole. People theorized at the time that having such a large air space was akin to having a barrel obstruction but I never had a problem, never observed common signs of excessive pressure.

[JimT]

.
As strong as a Super Blackhawk is, I wouldn't want to be near one that kaboomed....

Its the same reason bullpup rifles other than 22LR make me nervous... I'm sure a 308 kabooming 10 inches from ones face is horrible, but if it is against your right cheek it has to be worse.

I saw a Ruger Blackhawk with a blown cylinder. Blew 3 chambers open. Did not hurt the frame. I had an extra cylinder and gave it to the gun owner who installed it in the Ruger and years later it still shoots just fine.

I feel the same way as you about Bullpup rifles.

[Pat C]

Mike speaks of the lighter bullet allowed for more powder capacity . So was he shooting blackpowder?
Did the semi wadcutter find a misalignment of cylinder to bore?

[Walt]

Although black powder is considered an explosive whereas smokeless is not, I believe black powder is more forgiving in terms of explosions. Regarding Elmer Keith's notorious .45 Colt explosion, the fact that he ground black powder to the consistency of flour, which certainly altered its characteristics, and then used 400+gr .45-70 bullets, it's not surprising that he had that incident which likely marked the end of his relationship with the .45 Colt cartridge.

[Pat C]

If you read Kuhnhausens Colt SAA shop manual he shows a number of blown Colts and copies . Misalignment of cylinder to bore ,and even under powered smokeless loads have caused these .

[Pat C]

Better picture of Mike's SAA 45 ,this sixgun was a gift from Hank Williams Jr.

[junkbug]

I wonder how much age, and wear from firing countless black powder cartridges with corrosive priming, had to do with that failure.

[Pat C]

I wonder how much age, and wear from firing countless black powder cartridges with corrosive priming, had to do with that failure.

My guess it had a lot to do with the lighter semi wadcutter bullets he used . He states in the book it allowed him to use more powder than he usually did in 45 Colt. So I'm assuming he was loading black powder loads.

Also he had already fired a cylinder full before the kaboom.
I'm wondering if there was an alignment issue barrel cylinder and the shoulder of those semi wadcutter got canted and caused a pressure spike .

[Sixgun]

If a squib load can happen…not enough powder….it can happen the other way too.

I’ve only blown up 2 guns….one intentionally and one not……that one me 4 G’s……..

[JimT]

I don't believe a mis-aligned cylinder can blow a gun like that unless the powder charge is over-pressure. If the cylinder is far enough out of line to stop the bullet the firing pin will not hit the primer. It takes a pressure spike to break and bend metal. There have been numerous tests running oversize bullets at full pressure through rifles and handguns with no ill effects. If the maximum pressure is within the tolerance of the firearm and if the cartridge seals the chamber, no issues happen.

I remember when Sixgun had that rifle let go. It was not a pressure spike. And it is most likely why Mr. Venturino's old Colt let go. The metallurgy in those old guns is not up to what is normal in modern times.

I shot Dick Casull's 1936 Colt Single Action that he rebarreled and rechambered to .44 Magnum. It was a standard 6-shot cylinder. His loads were running close to 1500 fps from that old smallish Colt frame and cylinder. BUT .. he had triple heat-treated the frame and cylinder himself, proving that if gun makers could afford to put the work in them they can be made right.

[Pat C]

I don't believe a mis-aligned cylinder can blow a gun like that unless the powder charge is over-pressure. If the cylinder is far enough out of line to stop the bullet the firing pin will not hit the primer. It takes a pressure spike to break and bend metal. There have been numerous tests running oversize bullets at full pressure through rifles and handguns with no ill effects. If the maximum pressure is within the tolerance of the firearm and if the cartridge seals the chamber, no issues happen.

I remember when Sixgun had that rifle let go. It was not a pressure spike. And it is most likely why Mr. Venturino's old Colt let go. The metallurgy in those old guns is not up to what is normal in modern times.

I shot Dick Casull's 1936 Colt Single Action that he rebarreled and rechambered to .44 Magnum. It was a standard 6-shot cylinder. His loads were running close to 1500 fps from that old smallish Colt frame and cylinder. BUT .. he had triple heat-treated the frame and cylinder himself, proving that if gun makers could afford to put the work in them they can be made right.

Kuhnhausens shop manual shows SAA repros with grossly misaligned cylinder to barrels with top straps and top of cylinders gone.Just like MLV'S
It can easily happen especially using semi wadcutter bullet.

Think about it, flat part of that shoulder hits edge of barrel end outside tge force cone taper. Bullet starts to can't, makes an obstruction ,Kaboom.

Round nose bullet probably wouldn't be as likely.
If that SAA was fouled a little plus wear ,maybe didn't quite lock up ,etc .

Under powered handloads were also mentioned in Kuhnhausens manual as cause for blowups.

[JimT]

As they say, "Anything is possible." I understand what is in some of the books and what it looks like. But I don't believe that is what happened.

Note these

blown_bisley2.jpg

uberti1.jpg

The cartridges in the chambers to the left and right of the one that blew fired also. One chamber was in line with the ejector rod. The same with the bottom photo .. the Uberti. The bullet in each was gone but it did not damage the ejector rod. The chamber to the left in each was partially obstructed by the frame. Yet each bullet was gone without damaging that part of the frame. In the Uberti, it appears the bullet took off out the side of the cylinder at least partially, leaving the cartridge bent and twisted.

Lead bullets are basically ductile. They are easily deformed, molded, shaped by heat or by pressure. A chamber that is out of line with the forcing cone will spit lead particles and shave lead particles. Unless the powder charge was excessive or there were some flaw in the frame, out of alignment can do a lot of things but I have serious doubts about breaking the frame if it is in good shape and the pressures of the load are within tolerances. Just my opinion based on what I have seen and worked with.

[Sixgun]

Like Jim T says, the loaded round can only be very slightly off center for it to ignite. Look at a primer……Reading Mike’s writings since the early seventies he started off with heavy loads but quickly came to his senses and realized that factory equivalents were fine.

Also, like Jim T, I too have fired many tens of thousands of rounds sometimes being stupid and fanning which will drop the hammer off center if you don’t pull the hammer all the way back. During these “fanning episodes” I would occasionally get a misfire, or so I thought. Primer was well hit but was between the center and the edge…….primers are designed that way and can be easily seen when looking at the innards…..

Mike had a double load. All he uses, or used were cast bullets. I’ve seen guns (more than a few times) where the person had a squib load which left the bullet in the barrel and let off another…..sometimes nothing happens …other times a bulge will be present…..

It does take quite a heavy load to blow up a gun…….a quality gun….I also know a well seasoned …..very well seasoned and experienced shooter who, if I remember correctly put a 45 Colt cylinder in a 44 magnum revolver….loaded a 45 long Colt round and it fired just fine…remember that Jim T?

Over the last half century I have seen multiple discharges from a single hammer strike of black powder cap and balls revolvers..none blew up but a few left some shooters with battle scars encouraging them to grease up the front of the cylinder.

The heat treating of cylinders was perfected around 1920 or so. Smith & Wesson Triple lock cylinders were not heat treated properly while the second model hand ejectors were.

Just another reason why I don’t own or have ever owned more than a few days, junk reproductions…..Quality of the steel, heat treating, alignment and overall fitting of the gun is no where near what the big three can do….and they don’t give away trade secrets to foreign competitors.

[JimT]

A gunsmith who was present said it would blow up the gun. Five rounds were fired and then the gun examined. There was no leading, no shaving, no spitting. Accuracy was pretty decent. And anyone who tries such stunts is on their own. I am not recommending it. But I was there.

[Streetstar]

It does take quite a heavy load to blow up a gun…….a quality gun….I also know a well seasoned …..very well seasoned and experienced shooter who, if I remember correctly put a 45 Colt cylinder in a 44 magnum revolver….loaded a 45 long Colt round and it fired just fine…remember that Jim T?

[Grizz]

It does take quite a heavy load to blow up a gun…….a quality gun….I also know a well seasoned …..very well seasoned and experienced shooter who, if I remember correctly put a 45 Colt cylinder in a 44 magnum revolver….loaded a 45 long Colt round and it fired just fine…remember that Jim T?

what? a weak swaging die

[Pat C]

Mike wrote about this mysterious blow up several times. You have to read them to get a since of what happened that day.
The .200 grain semi wadcutter bullet I believe played a big roll in what happened. He stated a "guy" gave him 200 count .
What were they cast from ?

Doesn't sound like a close friend to me my guess they could have been to hard .

He also stated he loaded 5 cartridges and fired all 5 hitting the target. He then loaded 5 more and the first shot on that cylinder was the Kaboom. It also hit target .

6 of the 200 rounds all accounted for , he checked each of the 194 rounds remaining all fine powder wise.

He also states he mounted anouther cylinder in that blown up Colt and loaded a double charge of same powder and bullet in each chamber and fired them without a top strap.
No affect what so ever .

Mike stated he eventually gave up to conclusion as to what caused it.

[Pat C]

Delete,double post

[Pat C]

The other possibility that seems overlooked is the fact there could have been a crack in one of the chambers from a previous shooting and went unseen and the ammo used had absolutely nothing to do with the blow up.

45 Colt chambers there is only about .012 wall thickness at locking notch . Pre WW1 steel too.

Not sure what exact steel Colt was using at time for cylinders .
The machine bluing could not be used on any heat treated parts so just a grade of lower carbon steel is probably it.

[Scott Tschirhart]

All I know is that such a blowup is liable to cause a hell of a flinch!

One of my friends was shooting an M1a and was badly hurt when it let go. His eyes were saved because he had good eye protection. But he struggled with a flinch for a long time after that.

[JimT]

The other possibility that seems overlooked is the fact there could have been a crack in one of the chambers from a previous shooting and went unseen and the ammo used had absolutely nothing to do with the blow up.

45 Colt chambers there is only about .012 wall thickness at locking notch . Pre WW1 steel too.

Not sure what exact steel Colt was using at time for cylinders .
The machine bluing could not be used on any heat treated parts so just a grade of lower carbon steel is probably it.

That would be the #1 Culprit in my thinking. The metallurgy in the early guns. I replaced the cylinder in my 1st Generation Colt with a modern cylinder.

[Grizz]

steel is tough and wants to hang together, but a tiny imperfection can cause a blade to break in a stress test, [forged in fire style]. this was known early on in blade smithing. somewhere in my notes I have the instructions for heat-treating the frame and components of the 1911. it is part of the design. and a point of failure if neglected or botched.

what we have now is the ability to examine metal micro structure before and after heat treatment. the narrative of the blown Colt sounds a bit like bending a piece of metal back and forth until it breaks, and makes me think that a thorough cleaning and die search of the cylinder might have shown that the failure was in place, and each fired shot lead to the last straw. maybe, idk.

cast gun parts are castigated because they are cast, but Ruger figured out how to cast jet engine compressor blades that last for thousands of hours of heating and cooling cycles, which propelled them into one of the large producers of quality cast parts. it's the quality of the part, and the exacting control of them, that makes their modern firearms high quality.

just random first cup-of-coffee notes

[JimT]

Every time you fire the gun that chamber expands and contracts .. very minutely ... but it's still "working" and in time it can begin to crack. I know of a Model 29 S&W .44 that cracked the cylinder at a bit over 110,000 rounds. None of the loads fired ever exceeded factory pressures, though the majority were factory pressure loads. The S&W cylinder expansion during firing with factory loads can be measured .. and has been.

[Grizz]

Every time you fire the gun that chamber expands and contracts .. very minutely ... but it's still "working" and in time it can begin to crack. I know of a Model 29 S&W .44 that cracked the cylinder at a bit over 110,000 rounds. None of the loads fired ever exceeded factory pressures, though the majority were factory pressure loads. The S&W cylinder expansion during firing with factory loads can be measured .. and has been.

shows that saami pressure isn't all it's cracked up to be

[Pat C]

The simple fact how thin a Colt 45 SAA cylinder is would merit being very cautious if firing was planned. I think possible crack or other issue with steel is climbing to the top of this failure analysis.