Another Rolling Block pistol!
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- marlinman93
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Another Rolling Block pistol!
Last week a friend called to tell me about yet another Rolling Block pistol he saw at auction. He wanted it, but said it wasn't going to happen since he lives in Ca. and it would be too much trouble to buy since it wasn't an antique. He sent me the link for the auction, and I watched it all week without a single bid on it! At the last 20 minutes I put in a bid and got it for the opening asking bid! Considering it's rarity, and provenance I was shocked nobody else bid?
This one is a Remington Model 1901 Target Pistol chambered in .22LR, and was customized with a special grip frame built to make the grips larger for some shooter. The gun has custom grips and forearm, and is stamped "A HUBALEK" on the barrel by the maker, Arthur Hubalek. Hubalek was a watch maker turned custom gunsmith in New York City in the late 1800's-early 1900's, and was a protégé of Harry Pope. Pope taught Hubalek how to build and rifle barrels, and Habalek specialized in .22 match barrels, plus custom offhand rifles. But when Hubalek struck out on his own Pope was unhappy with him, and considered him a traitor. He broke off all contact with Hubalek, and the two never spoke again.
The Model 1901 Target pistols were only built in two cartridges; .22LR and .44 Russian. They were an improved version of the Model 1891 pistols, and only 734 of these guns were made before production halted. Jerry Lankstron covered these in his book on Rolling Block pistols, and said they were the last and finest of the Rolling Block pistols. Some of these .22 pistols actually saw Olympic competition.
It should be in my hands by week's end, and then I'll have some more info once I can see it and disassemble it to see what Hubalek changed on it.
This one is a Remington Model 1901 Target Pistol chambered in .22LR, and was customized with a special grip frame built to make the grips larger for some shooter. The gun has custom grips and forearm, and is stamped "A HUBALEK" on the barrel by the maker, Arthur Hubalek. Hubalek was a watch maker turned custom gunsmith in New York City in the late 1800's-early 1900's, and was a protégé of Harry Pope. Pope taught Hubalek how to build and rifle barrels, and Habalek specialized in .22 match barrels, plus custom offhand rifles. But when Hubalek struck out on his own Pope was unhappy with him, and considered him a traitor. He broke off all contact with Hubalek, and the two never spoke again.
The Model 1901 Target pistols were only built in two cartridges; .22LR and .44 Russian. They were an improved version of the Model 1891 pistols, and only 734 of these guns were made before production halted. Jerry Lankstron covered these in his book on Rolling Block pistols, and said they were the last and finest of the Rolling Block pistols. Some of these .22 pistols actually saw Olympic competition.
It should be in my hands by week's end, and then I'll have some more info once I can see it and disassemble it to see what Hubalek changed on it.
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
a Beauty. what auction did those rollers appear at?
grizz
grizz
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
Wonderful find, Vall. I'd sure be tempted to shoot it.
- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
The first one I found locally, not at an auction. I don't ever look at online auctions as I've always been leery of buying guns online where I can't hold them and look them over. But this 2nd one was on Gunbroker, and I broke my own rule just because it was too neat to pass up.
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- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
I'm in the process of making brass for the 1867 .50 Navy, and it will be shooting soon. Since this one is .22lR it will see lots of shooting with no load workup required.Bill in Oregon wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 7:14 am Wonderful find, Vall. I'd sure be tempted to shoot it.
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
Thank you. there's a .50 1871 roller auction ending tomorrow. Too mucho for me.marlinman93 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 11:32 amThe first one I found locally, not at an auction. I don't ever look at online auctions as I've always been leery of buying guns online where I can't hold them and look them over. But this 2nd one was on Gunbroker, and I broke my own rule just because it was too neat to pass up.
- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
Should be a .50-70 Remington military and they usually get pretty good money being US military rifles. A lot of those were sold to national guard and militia units, especially New York State. I've never done much collecting of military guns, so this Navy .50 pistol is one of the few I've owned.Grizz wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 12:43 pmThank you. there's a .50 1871 roller auction ending tomorrow. Too mucho for me.marlinman93 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 11:32 amThe first one I found locally, not at an auction. I don't ever look at online auctions as I've always been leery of buying guns online where I can't hold them and look them over. But this 2nd one was on Gunbroker, and I broke my own rule just because it was too neat to pass up.
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- Scott Tschirhart
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
I’m in love with the way that pistol looks. I’ve never owned one or seen one in person. But I can go to a specific page in Sixguns by Keith where it is pictured.
- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
Thanks Scott!Scott Tschirhart wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:36 am I’m in love with the way that pistol looks. I’ve never owned one or seen one in person. But I can go to a specific page in Sixguns by Keith where it is pictured.
This Remington Target pistol is what I really wanted to find long before the .50 Navy 1867 showed up. But as is often the case right after I find something close the perfect gun shows up soon after. I've always loved these target models with their 10" half octagon barrels, and I also collect guns made or custom made by famous gunsmiths. So the Hubalek connection is a gunsmith whose work I wanted to add also, but is tougher to find than some of the well known custom makers most quickly recognize.
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
beautiful ! terrific find ! always wanted one in 22 an also one in 50 CF but never found either one at a reasonable price
i did get a slender little uberti rolling block replica in 38/357 that finally satisfied the craving to a small degree.
i did get a slender little uberti rolling block replica in 38/357 that finally satisfied the craving to a small degree.
cable
- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
The .22RF Target version is what always got my blood boiling, and the .50 Navy CF was a close 2nd. So if these had come up in reverse I might have passed on the big .50CF 1867. Since I now own both, I have to get the .50 setup to shoot and see how I like it! Then decide if I keep both, or let the .50 go.
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- Ysabel Kid
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
Congrats!
I've always wanted one. Don't know much about them other than the basics, but like Scott, just always admired the looks. I love the .44 Russian cartridge. May have to start looking harder.
I've always wanted one. Don't know much about them other than the basics, but like Scott, just always admired the looks. I love the .44 Russian cartridge. May have to start looking harder.
- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
As tough as these are to buy, one in .44 Russian is the needle in the haystack to find! I've never heard of anyone owning one, nor have I ever seen one anywhere for sale, even at the big online auctions. Probably best to find one a little beat up, or with a bad .50 cal. bore and have a new .44 barrel fitted, or line it.Ysabel Kid wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:08 pm Congrats!
I've always wanted one. Don't know much about them other than the basics, but like Scott, just always admired the looks. I love the .44 Russian cartridge. May have to start looking harder.
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- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
Just an update, as I've been doing research while waiting for the Roller to arrive.
I was loaned a copy of Landskron's book on the Rolling Block pistols and something he wrote jumped off the page when I read it. He mentioned that all the Rolling Block actions were made between 1865 and 1876! This means that no matter which model one owns, (even the 1901 Model!) they are all antique! The ATF uses the frames to date a firearm, and when the frame was made. So it's not based on when a gun is assembled, or when it was reworked, or sold. Since none of these frames, or the guns they were reworked from are later than 1876, they're all antique by ATF rules!
I made a call to my local ATF office to confirm a gun's receiver manufacture date dictates it's birth date, and was told this is true.
I was loaned a copy of Landskron's book on the Rolling Block pistols and something he wrote jumped off the page when I read it. He mentioned that all the Rolling Block actions were made between 1865 and 1876! This means that no matter which model one owns, (even the 1901 Model!) they are all antique! The ATF uses the frames to date a firearm, and when the frame was made. So it's not based on when a gun is assembled, or when it was reworked, or sold. Since none of these frames, or the guns they were reworked from are later than 1876, they're all antique by ATF rules!
I made a call to my local ATF office to confirm a gun's receiver manufacture date dictates it's birth date, and was told this is true.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
does this mean you could mail one to me?marlinman93 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 11:13 am Just an update, as I've been doing research while waiting for the Roller to arrive.
I was loaned a copy of Landskron's book on the Rolling Block pistols and something he wrote jumped off the page when I read it. He mentioned that all the Rolling Block actions were made between 1865 and 1876! This means that no matter which model one owns, (even the 1901 Model!) they are all antique! The ATF uses the frames to date a firearm, and when the frame was made. So it's not based on when a gun is assembled, or when it was reworked, or sold. Since none of these frames, or the guns they were reworked from are later than 1876, they're all antique by ATF rules!
I made a call to my local ATF office to confirm a gun's receiver manufacture date dictates it's birth date, and was told this is true.
- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
Yes, any of them could be mailed directly to any buyer in the US.Grizz wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 4:17 pmdoes this mean you could mail one to me?marlinman93 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 11:13 am Just an update, as I've been doing research while waiting for the Roller to arrive.
I was loaned a copy of Landskron's book on the Rolling Block pistols and something he wrote jumped off the page when I read it. He mentioned that all the Rolling Block actions were made between 1865 and 1876! This means that no matter which model one owns, (even the 1901 Model!) they are all antique! The ATF uses the frames to date a firearm, and when the frame was made. So it's not based on when a gun is assembled, or when it was reworked, or sold. Since none of these frames, or the guns they were reworked from are later than 1876, they're all antique by ATF rules!
I made a call to my local ATF office to confirm a gun's receiver manufacture date dictates it's birth date, and was told this is true.
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
Great, I will PM you my address!marlinman93 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 11:16 am Yes, any of them could be mailed directly to any buyer in the US.
But seriously...
That's a beauty for sure! In the Single Shot Exchange, there are those who specialize in and want "Hubaleks", and I'm surprised they didn't see it. But you could always turn a quick profit if some other Ballard or High Wall catches your eye.
Navy Arms made a replica roller pistol in .22 LR that my brothers and I chipped in on and bought for our Dad years ago. It was nowhere as nice as yours, but it fired when the trigger was pulled. The grip wasn't really well shaped either -- yours looks like it will handle much better! Dad's held about as well as a LeMat revolver does -- meaning, "not that great"...
Old No7
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- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
I still would like to find a Hubalek Ballard rifle. Arthur Hubalek liked Ballard rifles over all the other single shots and built or barreled a lot of them. He even went so far as to partner up with a fellow named Worn who had a casting business closeby and had him cast Ballard receivers that were 3/4 scaled down versions. Hubalek built a striker fired breech block of his own design to add to his actions, and of course a .22LR Hubalek barrel.Old No7 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:01 pmGreat, I will PM you my address!marlinman93 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 11:16 am Yes, any of them could be mailed directly to any buyer in the US.
But seriously...
That's a beauty for sure! In the Single Shot Exchange, there are those who specialize in and want "Hubaleks", and I'm surprised they didn't see it. But you could always turn a quick profit if some other Ballard or High Wall catches your eye.
Navy Arms made a replica roller pistol in .22 LR that my brothers and I chipped in on and bought for our Dad years ago. It was nowhere as nice as yours, but it fired when the trigger was pulled. The grip wasn't really well shaped either -- yours looks like it will handle much better! Dad's held about as well as a LeMat revolver does -- meaning, "not that great"...
Old No7
The Hubalek Rolling Block wont be going anywhere, even if I am lucky enough to someday buy a Hubalek Ballard!
Some of those Navy Arms firearms were somewhat sketchy as they bid them out to low class gun makers who often cut corners and provided a poor quality product. But on occasion some were built OK, and those are the ones that are unusual.
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
If I had that gun I d probably sleep with it under my pillow lol
- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
Might get crowded with my 1964 Colt Commercial .45 under there now.barbarossa wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 4:41 pm If I had that gun I d probably sleep with it under my pillow lol
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
If I had that gun I would get a bigger pillow !marlinman93 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 11:26 amMight get crowded with my 1964 Colt Commercial .45 under there now.barbarossa wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 4:41 pm If I had that gun I d probably sleep with it under my pillow lol
- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
I just had my wife move to the spare bedroom so it can sit under her pillow!Grizz wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:48 amIf I had that gun I would get a bigger pillow !marlinman93 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 11:26 amMight get crowded with my 1964 Colt Commercial .45 under there now.barbarossa wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 4:41 pm If I had that gun I d probably sleep with it under my pillow lol
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- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
After waiting 10 days for this Rolling Block to arrive, I sent an email to the seller asking for a tracking number to see where it was. He replied it's still sitting at his shop and said he's waiting for a copy of my FFL dealer's license! Since I sent him all this info the day after I won the auction I told him he already had it, but he claimed it never got there! I sent it again, and a copy to my email too, and told him to please let me know he got it. A little irritated that he never let me know until I asked, yet was just fine with getting paid immediately.
So he replied he got the copy FFL, but wont ship until Tuesday since he only ships twice a week. This kind of thing is why I despise buying firearms that have to be shipped to me. Seems like something always goes sideways one way or the other.
So he replied he got the copy FFL, but wont ship until Tuesday since he only ships twice a week. This kind of thing is why I despise buying firearms that have to be shipped to me. Seems like something always goes sideways one way or the other.
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
Not a Remington I know that. Unmarked yes I checked. Seems like a 44 cal. Webley or Russian?
I was told it’s probably Belgian.
I was told it’s probably Belgian.
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- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
That's a pretty neat old Rolling Block pistol! Any markings at all on it?
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
Looked under the wood and all over, not even proof marks.
- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
Got a call from my friend who does my FFL transfers to tell me a package came in my name today. He said he wont open it until I get there tomorrow! Updates after I get it home and look it over good!
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- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
Went over and picked up the Rolling Block Hubalek pistol yesterday. We both agreed it's a Model 1891, so no FFL needed to hand it to me. After we looked it over good, and played with it a little I headed for home.
Once I got home I immediately tried to remove the grips and after removing the two grip screws they still stayed in place? I reinstalled the lower screw a couple threads, and tapped on the head to release the off side panel. Then tapped the left side panel off too. Big surprise when I removed both panels! There's a filler block between the panels fitted closely inside the grip frame!
The reworked Hubalek grip design has about 3/4" of extra steel down at the bottom, and the front side of the extended frame is part of the trigger guard, so it's got a screw down low in front that attaches the front frame to the rear grip frame. The rear has been permanently brazed to the original backstrap so it's part of it now.
The wood filler block has two holes for the grip screws, but also has two pointed pins on each side to further align it. Appears he didn't want anything to shift as the grip panels also slip up into the action at the top. A really nicely designed conversion. I think the extra thick base part of the extended grip frame is to add weight in the grip as it balances the long 10" barrel pretty nicely.
The bore is excellent, and Hubalek obviously worked over the trigger also as it's a wonderful clean, crisp, light trigger. Can't wait to take it to the gun club and see how it does at the indoor range with some .22LR match ammo.
The gun has 3 "serial numbers?" on it. One on the side of the grip frame, and two on the under side of the barrel. The one on the grip frame is original Rem. stamp, and one of those on the barrel has the same font. The pistol is a Model 1891 frame, fitted with a Model 1901 barrel, thus the different numbers. The 2nd barrel number is likely a Hubalek shop number and a larger font. Probably so he could enter the work in his records for future reference.
Hubalek was an avid shooter and attended almost all the Zettler Bros. indoor gallery shoots, winning a lot of those events. His shop was in Brooklynn, NY so close to Zettlers and many of his customers were other shooters there.
Once I got home I immediately tried to remove the grips and after removing the two grip screws they still stayed in place? I reinstalled the lower screw a couple threads, and tapped on the head to release the off side panel. Then tapped the left side panel off too. Big surprise when I removed both panels! There's a filler block between the panels fitted closely inside the grip frame!
The reworked Hubalek grip design has about 3/4" of extra steel down at the bottom, and the front side of the extended frame is part of the trigger guard, so it's got a screw down low in front that attaches the front frame to the rear grip frame. The rear has been permanently brazed to the original backstrap so it's part of it now.
The wood filler block has two holes for the grip screws, but also has two pointed pins on each side to further align it. Appears he didn't want anything to shift as the grip panels also slip up into the action at the top. A really nicely designed conversion. I think the extra thick base part of the extended grip frame is to add weight in the grip as it balances the long 10" barrel pretty nicely.
The bore is excellent, and Hubalek obviously worked over the trigger also as it's a wonderful clean, crisp, light trigger. Can't wait to take it to the gun club and see how it does at the indoor range with some .22LR match ammo.
The gun has 3 "serial numbers?" on it. One on the side of the grip frame, and two on the under side of the barrel. The one on the grip frame is original Rem. stamp, and one of those on the barrel has the same font. The pistol is a Model 1891 frame, fitted with a Model 1901 barrel, thus the different numbers. The 2nd barrel number is likely a Hubalek shop number and a larger font. Probably so he could enter the work in his records for future reference.
Hubalek was an avid shooter and attended almost all the Zettler Bros. indoor gallery shoots, winning a lot of those events. His shop was in Brooklynn, NY so close to Zettlers and many of his customers were other shooters there.
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- marlinman93
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
In doing my research, I think I may have stumbled across a similar pistol to yours. It was advertised as Remington Nagant that was made under Remington's patent and royalties paid to Remington to allow them to copy the design. Nagant I believe made these as single and double barreled models?
Link here:
https://www.remingtonsociety.org/nagant-model-1877/
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Re: Another Rolling Block pistol!
Yes, thanks, great reading. I think my gun came from that area, but puzzling with no proof marks.