OT: Single Actions, fixed or adjustable sights?

[NonPCnraRN]

I've seen the arguments for the Vaquero vs Blackhawk sighting systems since joining this forum. If I had the money I would have Jim Stroh do his metalurgical artistry (Like that phrase? I just made it up) adding adjustable sights to both of my Birds Head Vaqueros while increasing the barrel length to 4.6". But I always hear the arguments that fixed sights are more rugged......etc. OK! How many of you have actually had the adjustable sights on a sixgun knocked out of whack by branches, dropping the gun, falling on the gun, etc. I once slid 200+ yds down a shale mountain cradling my grandfather's 94 Winnie with Redfield receiver sight. The gun was built in 1917. The metal was practically in the white with traces of bluing left. The stock was scarred from years of hunting but I cradled that gun like my life depended on it with my butt looking like it had a cheese grater used on it. So how many of you had a hunt ruined because an adjustable rear sight was knocked out of whack or worse yet damaged to the point of needing replacement?

[eric65]

Adjustable,never had any problems

[Hobie]

I think that each is what it is. I've seen folks who could apparently break a 1" solid steel rod and others that could carry delicate glass for miles just chucking it in their backpack. It comes down to how naturally careful you are.

[Griff]

One. Back in '74, shortly after I got out of the Navy I had a 3-screw Ruger BH with 4-5/8" barrel stolen from my apartment while in college. Some 5 years later the Alhambra Police Dept. called and asked if I was the rightful owner. Short answer, yes. I went up there and picked up the gun. It was TRASHED. Now, I have no idea of how it happened, but... it looked as though someone tied that old Ruger to the back bumper and drug it on the rear sight on the asphalt!

The rear sight blade was lopsided, with metal curled away on either side of the sight blade and ragged as all get out! The front sight looked as though someone had used it instead of a hammer. It was beat down, rolled over on both sides and fatter than the barrel! (Not really, but close!) I got a case of recovered Remington .357 Mag ammo, but I believe that someone had fired another case or two since the gun had last been cleaned or... anything. To say the gun was dirty doesn't even begin to describe it.

A few days later I traded that Ruger off to a friend for a slightly used Marlin 336 that I gave to my Dad for a B-Day present. He was moving from CA to AZ and living in the country and had expressed a desire for something besides his old single barrel 20 gauge.

Now, I'm pretty certain that given the type of abuse that Ruger had suffered, any fixed-sighted gun would have been seriously damaged also, but... maybe the rear sight picture would still be there as to run down that much metal may have taken more abuse. Main reason I traded the gun off was that I just didn't trust how it'd been treated and how well it would serve me in the future. My buddy really wanted it, and hey, I didn't need it, I'd already replaced it with a Colt.

And yes, I have had a hunt stalled due to a knocked out rear adjustable sight on a rifle. However, it was only temporary as I mark my barrel where the sight point should be. Probably shouldn't, but...

[CowboyTutt]

NonPC, I can't attest to any hunting stories with a pistol. However, I would like to say that Bowen Arms offers a "rough country" adjustable rear sight that has opposing Allen head adjusting screws to help it keep its alignment. Very rugged set-up. I have one on my Accusport Bisley and it was recommended to me by Jim Stroh. I don't see any reason not to use a target sight, but like Hobie said, it depends how naturally careful you are.

-Tutt

[JReed]

For me its just a matter of asthetics not one of function. I have had a blackhawk and it was a fine gun and I never had any problems with the sights. I just like the looks of the fixed sights better. Either is a win win choice.

[Grizz]

I'd prefer to have fixed sights on all my handguns.

But to answer the question, my superBlackhawk had a migrating windage problem when the adjust screw backed out under recoil. Easy to fix but obnoxious...

Here's my fixed rear peep sight on my redhawk:



I can use Alaska windage and elevation if the LZ is in an unusual location. I have since changed the front to a green fiber but haven't shot it yet.

Grizz

[rjohns94]

i have not had any adjustable sights get knocked off, but I don't hunt under the condtions that some of you do, and walking in the woods out here in the east just aren't hard on the sights.

[gon2shoot]

The only time I ever had a problem was when my SBH got throwed off a horse in the rocks, still in the holster

[J Miller]

NonPCnraRN,

I think I kinda fall between the two extremes Hobie mentioned. I've got revolvers with both fixed and adjustable sights. I've had no trouble with the adjustable ones getting knocked out of adjustment. I once slid down a concrete embankment with my Mdl 28 in my hands, NOT BY CHOICE either. Gun got banged up, sights came through OK.

I prefer the adjustable sights because I can adjust them so the gun shoots where I want easier than I can regulate fixed sights. And I can see them better. After that I just leave them alone. I can't remember the last time I adjusted any of my sights.

Joe

[Ysabel Kid]

Only way to solve this is to always get one of each!

I am soooo helpful, aren't I?

[Andrew]

I think that each is what it is. I've seen folks who could apparently break a 1" solid steel rod and others that could carry delicate glass for miles just chucking it in their backpack. It comes down to how naturally careful you are.

I can be found in the former group.

As for the original question in the thread: Why use sights? I can't hit anything anyhow.

[Comal Forge]

I have a Ruger .45LC Old Model with 7.5" bbl that slowly backs off the elevation - I assume from recoil. This takes a bit of carrying and shooting but the POA will slowly walk upwards over time.

I also ruined a rear sight on a '94 Win in an unusual way. The carbine was in a rifle rack in a truck (muzzle pointing toward the passenger side) when I decided to give a buddy a ride to work. He tossed his coat up on the back of the seat and when he got out, a string from the coat caught the sight. He had momentum and yanked the sight clean off. Sort of a freak accident but would have ended a hunt unless you normally carry a spare rear sight.

In general, I never touch the sights once a firearm is on target at a known distance. Like Grizz said, it's easier for me to hold off - left, right, high or low - as required for the shot.

[Charles]

Elmer Keith had a strong preferance for adjustable sights on handguns and so do I. In all my years, I have only droped one firearm in the brush/woods and that was in Kentucky in 1972. I was crossing a little stream on some stones, when my feet went out from under me and the Browning shotgun and myself ended up in the drink. Other than one small scratch on the stock, the shotgun was fine.

The pleasure of having a handgun that hits to the EXACT point of aim far exceeds and theoretical excess ruggedness of fixed sights. Very, very few of us live and work under the circumstances where a damaged rear sight would be a major problem, should such and unlikely thing occur.

[J Miller]

I have read a number of complaints recently on several forums about Ruger rear sights not holding their adjustments. Both windage and elevation. To date and I've been shooting them for over 30 years I've never had such a thing happen. If I did, I'd fix the dang thing.

So for those with wondering rear Ruger sights -- FIX THEM. Don't just complain about them. These things are brutally simple, and easy to diagnose or replace.

OK, off my soap box now.

Joe

[Malamute]

I've had a few issues with adjustable sights, but nothing that was either preventable or disabling. The preventable was, a cheap holster (Hunter) with a Ruger Blackhawk. The rear sight rode directly on the holster instead of a piece of leather to keep the sight off the leather. This pushes the sight down in it's mortise, and allows the screw to back out. I'm wondering if this is what happened to those that had their elevation change on them. This is a holster design problem, not a sight problem, assuming that this was the cause in anyone elses sight change problem. After this happened to me, I filed the front sight down so the rear sight was sighted in just a few clicks off the bottom end of it's movement.

The other problem was with a Smith 29. I was truck camping, and was getting out in the night to do something, had the gun stuck in the front of my pants instead of a holster. Going over the tailgate it fell out and bounced off the rear bumper, the rear sight taking the hit. It cracked and bent the blade, but still functioned till I got a new blade.


I prefer the function of adjustable rear sights, and the looks of fixed on SA's. I personally think the factory front Ruger Blackhawk sights are very unattractive, reminding me of the tail fins of 50's Cadillacs or Chryslers. I've had one replaced with a small block and blade similar to the old Colt Flat Top Target sights of the 1880's. I want to do my others similarly. I also flat top the frames, and lower the rear as much as possible, and grind the sight tang to match the frame when it's sighted in a few clicks off the bottom of it's movement. I file the blade down a little also, and deepen the notch to keep the sight picture similar.


Over the past 25 or so years in northern Az and Wyoming I've carried a pistol a fair bit, for many years it was whenever I was awake, and is still daily for a least part of the day. When I'm not wearing one, it lives it its holster on the seat (or floor or wherever it ends up) of the truck, along with tools, dogs walking or laying on it etc. I prefer adjustable for daily use.

[jerry b]

The rear sight on adjustable sixguns are more out there and could take a hit, maybe if the gun is dropped. I have a spare rear (and springs) for Ruger SAs in the parts bin, but I doubt if I'll ever use it. But, I have seen a Vaquero front sight broken off. It looks easy to do. I can replace the rear sight in 3 minutes. The front blade of a Vaquero would take some finesse.

I think I'll just try to take reasonable care of the firearm, and a good holster goes a long way toward not worrying about the whole thing.

[jerry b]

Grizz,
Is that one of those "one ragged hole" sights on your Redhawk? My eyes are getting no better, and I have to do something some day, sooner than later.
jb

[Grizz]

Grizz,
Is that one of those "one ragged hole" sights on your Redhawk? My eyes are getting no better, and I have to do something some day, sooner than later.
jb

Jerry, that's home made from a piece of aluminum angle. It looks large on the gun but it works great. I switched the front to a green fiber 'cause I'm having trouble with the bead now. Haven't shot it that way yet. But I can keep my bear load in a deer size kill zone and 45 yards with that sight so I'm liking it. I'm going to make some more and try getting the profile a little lower, but right now it's very functional and makes the 50 yard area a no go zone for whatever moves into it.

Grizz

[Idiot]

I've had rear sights come apart in the field on a couple occassions, both because of loose screws. Fixed sights have no screws.

Here's the rub, although fixed sights are durable, the ones found on Ruger single-actions are awful (IMO). The rear notch is too narrow and are stuck within a rounded frame. The front blades are thin and almost useless. They are fine for romance and pretend, but for my eyes are nearly worthless in the field.

On double-actions, the front blades are usually okay, and if not, can be easily replaced. Some good blind file work on the rear notch makes it usable.

As a result of the above, I usually buy adjustible sighted handguns and either make it a point to make sure the screws are tight before a hunt or replace them with good after market adjustibles.

My next Ruger single-action will have fixed sights, but I will send it off to have a rear drift adjustible sight installed and a good wide blade or bead soldered on up front. I would have to spend money anyway to replace the rotton stock adjustibles if I were to buy a gun with adjustibles, so I might as well get the best fixed sight arrangement I can get and not have to worry about it.

Thats my nickles worth and it is only my opinion.

[shooter]

I think it's mostly a matter of personal opinion. If you like fixed sights, get a gun with fixed sights. If you like adjustable, get adjustable. I like both. I've never seen anything that would indicate a durability problem with either, but I'm sure there could be. Quality control is good with reputable companies, but it's not perfect. If you get adjustable and don't like them, there are plenty of options for a quality replacement. The only problem with the fixed sight is that if they're off, it's a lot bigger hassle to get corrected than adjustable sights.

[Grizz]

I think it's mostly a matter of personal opinion. If you like fixed sights, get a gun with fixed sights. If you like adjustable, get adjustable. I like both. I've never seen anything that would indicate a durability problem with either, but I'm sure there could be. Quality control is good with reputable companies, but it's not perfect. If you get adjustable and don't like them, there are plenty of options for a quality replacement. The only problem with the fixed sight is that if they're off, it's a lot bigger hassle to get corrected than adjustable sights.

I agree to a degree. But the amount of metal removed from the top strap of the rugers makes me nervous. If you take the adjustable sight off you will see how deeply the rabbet is machined into the strap. Fixed sight guns are kind of the opposite, metal is added to the top strap. It just seems stronger to me, looking at it with a handyman's eye.

I wrote to Ruger about making a SBH with a fixed rear sight and told them about my livestyle. The wrote back and allowed as how they wish they could live like I did, but the demand for adjustable sights was so high that they didn't see any market for fixed sights on that gun.

I still think most adjustable rear sights on most hand guns are unnecessary, a fad, and a waste of good metal in a place where it does some good.

I realize I am in a very narrow minority. But as someone who has actually fed a family of five for many years with a revolver, that adjustable sight irked me every time I used it! I guess I'm just easily amused. I experimented with lots of different rear sights, I chopped the rims off of cartridge cases and epoxied them to the groove for the rear sight apparatus, making a kind of tubular receiver sight. Recoil knocked them off

Anyway, what's the practical use of an adjustable sight on a handgun??? How about this scenario: " O for Pete's sake. That shot missed the deer by 5 clicks of elevation and 7 clicks of windage. Hold on there Bambi while I dial in the adjustments."

That's the point where I recycle the teeth grinding, what's the point of a useless feature on a hunting hand gun?

Grizz

[NonPCnraRN]

I would have been perfectly content with fixed sights....I have 2 Birds Head Vaqueros in 45 Colt. The problem is that being in Kalipornia I will be using Barnes XPB bullets in any handguns carried in the field. I don't want to worry about whether I'm in a Condor Zone or not. Besides, the state will probably go non lead entirely within a year or two. At a buck a piece (bullet, not ammo) I can't afford to practice with them. Even with lead bullets of similar weight the poi will be different and even when practicing I like the bullet holes to be where I am aiming. Since I spend a lot more time at the range than in the woods hunting (reality of suburban living) I will change the sight setting for hunting ammo at the range prior to a hunt. Regarding the previous post: How about this scenario: " O for Pete's sake. That shot missed the deer by 5 clicks of elevation and 7 clicks of windage. Hold on there Bambi while I dial in the adjustments." I have never used adjustable sights to adjust where bullets hit like an artillary piece while actually shooting at an animal. But I also can't afford 2 identical guns, one for practice and one for the field and I've always heard that you should practice with the gun you are actually going to hunt with. So for me adjustable sights are the way to go. I would love to just load up with Penn Thunderheads whether practicing or hunting, adjusting fixed sights to a specific load, but the reality of hunting regulations in this state preclude that.

[Grizz]

I found out the stuff about handguns by trial and error. I'm not saying that it's the only way or even the right way, I'm just saying I fed my household that way. One of the things I learned is that handguns have a definite spot they want to lob bullets into. I try to find that spot and work with it.

So for the barnes issue, I'd find out where the gun puts them and call that the spot the sights are regulated for. Then I'd find a cast lead hand load that thru happenstance lobs the bullets to the same spot. Sometimes this won't be the same distance, but the windage should be the same. For hand gun hunting I never worried much about elevation if windage was spot-on because I adjust elevation when hunting based on distance to the meat. I discovered that my handgun felt its duty was to chuck the bullets to about a sixty or seventy yard zero, I tonied up the windage and it was all good after that.

I don't know, maybe you can't shoot lead at a gun range, but does this idea help?

[Malamute]

I don't think adjustable sights for a hunting pistol are useless, quite the opposite. It gives you the chance to get your point of impact set to the exact range and load you want to use. After that, I've not adjusted a sight, but I like that I can make every gun shoot to the same hold regardless of load or caliber. You can just figure out where your gun hits and hold off for that gun and load, which I think you are saying, but why? Why not make it hit exactly where you want, then the range is all you need to figure for. Same for rifles, I've not adjusted a sight or scope in the field, but when I go out, I know where it's hitting because I sighted it in and adjusted it to suit my use. It's much simpler to adjust an adjustable sight than fixed. I tune fixed sights when I get a gun with them, but fail to see the advantage of that work, it seems more a nuisance than anything. If worried about the sights moving after getting it sighted in, you can put a drop of removable locktite on the adjustment threads. Adjustables are generally clearer and better shaped (easier to see) than fixed. I feel the adjustables have more practical advantages than fixed. That's just how I see it. Guess everyone has to decide for themselves.

The rear sight cut in the frame isnt a strength issue. The cylinder is always the weak point. I've never heard of a frame stretching or letting go at the sight cut, it's always the cylinder that goes first, and after that point, the frame is done no matter what.

[NonPCnraRN]

Grizz: This is off topic, but my hat is off to you as a man who fed his family with a firearm, especially a handgun. Being self reliant and skilled enough to feed your family with a firearm is almost a lost art for the majority of Americans. We forget that being self reliant is part of what being an American means. Especially during this political season we should be even more keenly aware of that principle. As a fellow American I am proud to be part of this forum and in the company of men like you.

[Grizz]

Aw, shucks...

Thanks for that. I am an extremely blessed man because somehow I got to live almost exactly the way I dreamed of when I was a kid, goofing off in school and daydreaming, or plundering the library for information about boats and sailing and fishing and all that good stuff. It still amazes me that I got to live that way for half my life. It's like I had a preview of some of my life before I got to it. Spooky, eh? I am grateful that I got to do what I did. I am blessed. It runs like a movie in the background of my days. And I'm still day dreaming about it.

Grizz

[Malamute]

Grizz, I didn't know you had changed locations, or lifestyle,...what are you doing now?

[Grizz]

Grizz, I didn't know you had changed locations, or lifestyle,...what are you doing now?

I retired from fishing in '99 and my wife wanted to move to WA state to be near her Mom and to be able to see our kids more often. We moved to the Silverdale (west of seattle) area in Sep '04. I've been back a few times to work on my house and relax in the Great country. I have buddies in WA I met online that I shoot with, and still living the dream, revised version. Been doing some road trips, cross country and north/south, and that's been very entertaining.

Grizz

PS; I hope I didn't mislead anyone to think that I'm posting from Alaska, that's history now except for brief vacations, or "work release" as I like to call it...

[Malamute]

I get on the board sporadically, I never seem to be up to date about whats going on,.... You could well have explained in detail and I likely would have missed it.


If you're doing road trips over Wyoming way, stop by and see the sights and visit.

[Grizz]

I get on the board sporadically, I never seem to be up to date about whats going on,.... You could well have explained in detail and I likely would have missed it.


If you're doing road trips over Wyoming way, stop by and see the sights and visit.

Thanks and likewise. I visited around Riverton last June for about a week. I have a lot of trouble with the heat. But loved the country and absolutely love the game I see. If I get loose again I'll send fair warning.

Regards...

[Malamute]

It gets a bit warm around here in the lower parts of the country in summer, but it's always about 20 or 30 degrees cooler up on the mountain. I've awoke with frost on my pillow sleeping out under the stars in July up about 9000 or 10,000 ft elevation.

[Comal Forge]

I'm sure I'm in the minority but I typically find a load for any given handgun and then stick to it, so adjustable sights don't provide much advantage to me. After finding the most consistent load, adjusting fixed sights to POA means that you can have confidence where it will hit when in the field.