450 Alaskan Reloading / Loads

[577nitro]

Sir's

Just curious about any loads others have worked up for the 450AK. I have been going off 45-70 loads and adjusting to get velocities to where I want.

I'm currently shooting these in a Marlin 1895G I converted, and just love it.

577nitro

[gamekeeper]

Welcome to the fire... I guess by your handle you're not a Squirrel hunter...

[577nitro]

Thanks, squirrels to buffs and everything in between!

[Rimfire McNutjob]

My inexpensive shooting load (well, less expensive anyway) was the Speer Hot-Cor #2478 (350 grain JFP) over 66 grains of IMR 3031 lit by a WLR primer. I would final crimp with a Lee FCD that was made up specifically for the 450 AK. I'll have to look up the particulars but I think COAL was 2.78" and velocity was about 2450fps from my 20" barrel. I'd have to find my notes but I loaded a bunch of those for shooting at the range. Some guys loaded it at 67 grains but that required slight compression in my cases. Below is my daughter when she was much younger loading one up on my RCBS AmmoMaster press in single state mode. You can see that I had to turn the necks on my cases from QualCart as they were too thick and not particularly uniform.



I had a 400 grain load as well, but didn't load it often enough to remember it offhand. It used that 400 grain Swift A-frame. I've not been out shooting that rifle in at least 12 years or so.

I think 4198 is a popular powder as well for 400 grain hard cast gas check in the 450 AK.

That Speer 350 grain "plinking" load will definitely get the job done if you happen to end up needed to shoot at something other than paper. But the bullet will never hold together as well as that A-frame ... though it was about 1/3 the cost of the A-frame as well.

[samsi]

The only thing I've ever shot in mine is the Oregon Trail 405 over 42 grains of 5744, sort of an energetic plinking load I guess. Recently I loaded up 20 rounds what was billed as a "good deer load" with the Hornady 300 gr. hollow point over 58 grains of 3031 from a late '80's/early '90's Handloader article that was reprinted in Wolfe Publishing's Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges. Haven't gotten around to shooting it yet.

Per that article, Harold Johnson's original load was a 400 gr. Barnes FP over 51.5 grains of IMR4198 for 2100 f/s from a 24" barrel. I've also got a note that says Elmer Keith's load for the 450AK (Johnson sent him a rifle) was 63 grains of 3031 with the Remington 405 Soft Point. I think that may have come from a Dave Scoville column somewhere, in any case it's in line with other data that I've compared.

[Lastmohecken]

My inexpensive shooting load (well, less expensive anyway) was the Speer Hot-Cor #2478 (350 grain JFP) over 66 grains of IMR 3031 lit by a WLR primer. I would final crimp with a Lee FCD that was made up specifically for the 450 AK. I'll have to look up the particulars but I think COAL was 2.78" and velocity was about 2450fps from my 20" barrel. I'd have to find my notes but I loaded a bunch of those for shooting at the range. Some guys loaded it at 67 grains but that required slight compression in my cases. Below is my daughter when she was much younger loading one up on my RCBS AmmoMaster press in single state mode. You can see that I had to turn the necks on my cases from QualCart as they were too thick and not particularly uniform.



I had a 400 grain load as well, but didn't load it often enough to remember it offhand. It used that 400 grain Swift A-frame. I've not been out shooting that rifle in at least 12 years or so.

I think 4198 is a popular powder as well for 400 grain hard cast gas check in the 450 AK.

That Speer 350 grain "plinking" load will definitely get the job done if you happen to end up needed to shoot at something other than paper. But the bullet will never hold together as well as that A-frame ... though it was about 1/3 the cost of the A-frame as well.

You know, I think I may be needing to turn my case necks, also. How did you turn your case necks down? Do you have a lathe, or do you use another method?

[piller]

Getting kids interested in reloading is a great idea.

[3leggedturtle]

P.O. Ackley's Handbook volume 1 has a few fir it. Mine is oacked away else I'd post a few.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

You know, I think I may be needing to turn my case necks, also. How did you turn your case necks down? Do you have a lathe, or do you use another method?

I bought the little Forster hand tool for it. It's quick work. You need to get the right mandrel/pilot for .458 cal when you order. My necks were very uneven in thickness ... the tool would take some from one side but not the other. The ends were not particularly square either but the RCBS trimmer quickly solved that. The QualCart people clearly weren't doing any clean-up after forming on that stuff.

This holder is probably superior to the one that comes with the Forster tool. I very often found myself just grasping the case with my hand instead of letting that set screw on the Forster mar the case head.

I used to fireform from .348 WCF but then I got old and lazy. That was 10 grains of Unique, then fill to the base of the neck with cream of wheat, then jam the neck into the bottom of a wax candle and wiggle it free to form a plug. Loud as hell though.

I think my cases, once prepped, held 88 grains of water ... maybe a smidge over.

Here she is ...



I should probably check the safe to make sure she's still in there ... the wife would love to sell her off and go shopping.

[577nitro]

Sir's

Thank you for your responses! My own experience has been that the 45-70 loads are about 5 to 10 percent lower Velocities and I adjust the loads to achieve the desired FPS.

I had to have Hornady make a couple sets of reloading dies, custom made, as I could not find any for the 450AK proper. I did find and use a set of CH4D for 450/348 Ak, which is a
straight tapered case, and used them initially for testing. What I found is that they cycled the best of the two, and required zero modifications to the action. The case capacity
of water on the 450/348 is 85.3/5 grains of water. The 450AK HJ version, is 88.8 to 89 grains of water, 45-70 76.4 grains of water, and the 458 win mag 92 grains of water (GOW).

Also found that the 50-110 holds, 108.3 GOW, and the 45-90 holds 88.5 GOW. Interesting that the 450AK and 45-90 win and basically the same and both just a few grains off the .458 WM.
What's also interesting is that the .458 at 2.5" and the 45-90 at 2.4" are 3 grains delta, so I think its probably because the .458 is a bit fatter, as the .1" would not be 3 grains volume.

I am looking at creating a long throat version (450AK LT) on an 1886 so I can load 500 grain bullets and seat them normally..still in the works though.

577-

[crs]

What's also interesting is that the .458 at 2.5" and the 45-90 at 2.4" are 3 grains delta, so I think its probably because the .458 is a bit fatter, as the .1" would not be 3 grains volume."
Indeed,

In my VV load book, the .45-70 N133 loads come just before the .458 Win Mag loads. My actual .45-90 loads are well up into the .458 Mag velocities and perform well in the field.
In fact, the performance of my 1886 45-90 in Africa (one bull ele, multiple buff, leopard, etc) convinced me that no more gun is actually needed, so that made the decision to go ahead with upgrading my Beretta .45-70 to a 45-90. Aaron Little is doing the work and well if I may say so. Using North Fork 350 SS at 2200-2300 fps should take most any critter desired: 45 yard regulation group below:

Upper right hole caused by obvious flyer.

[CowboyTutt]

Throating another one are you CRS??? I like your gunsmithing style. I have two extended chambers myself. -Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

Just some QuickLoad data. I can't figure out how to post it as a screen shot here.

Cartridge : .450 Alaskan
Bullet : .458, 350, Barnes 'TSX' FB 30617
Useable Case Capaci: 68.882 grain H2O = 4.472 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.795 inch = 70.99 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Predicting one Charge to Generate Entered Pressure and a Second Charge to Generate a
15% Lower Pressure of 34518 psi, or 237 MPa.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 40610 psi, or 280 MPa.
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

114 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio 1.Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max 2.Charge Vel.
% Grains Gramm fps % psi Grains fps
--------------------------------- --------------------------------------- -------------------------
Accurate 2495 109.8 68.2 4.42 2294 97.7 40611 65.6 2188 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 116.0 72.0 4.67 2283 95.0 40611 69.2 2174 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 110.3 65.4 4.24 2264 96.2 40611 62.3 2147 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 105.0 64.5 4.18 2262 99.4 40611 61.4 2149 ! Near Maximum !

This is a good MAP for a very strong levergun to approach (read Marlin or 1886 Win) A bolt gun could handle much more pressure. A 110% fill rate is pretty normal for a compressed load and will still fit. If you "swirl charged" you could improve upon that some. This more efficiently packs the powder grains into the case. If you really want the most power, a compressed charge of Alliant AR Comp at more pressure and 110% fill IF YOU HAVE A STRONG ENOUGH GUN would be the way to go but it is 47, 879 PMAX. At this other 40,610 PSI level pressure, Accurate 4064 is probably already under too much compression at 116%. Probably rule that one out. At this pressure level, Accurate 2495 or IMR 30301 or Alliant AR Comp would ALL work. I tried to choose a commonly available bullet with the Barnes. I accept no responsibility for this data, it is only informative and what powders would be top picks to play with using typical practices of loading down 10% and working up. Case volume, chamber dimensions, bullet lead, choice of primer all matter. Just an idea of what powders might offer the best results with careful experimentation in your own firearm.

Regards,

-Tutt

[577nitro]

In fact, the performance of my 1886 45-90 in Africa (one bull ele, multiple buff, leopard, etc) convinced me that no more gun is actually needed, so that made the decision to go ahead with upgrading my Beretta .45-70 to a 45-90. Aaron Little is doing the work and well if I may say so. Using North Fork 350 SS at 2200-2300 fps should take most any critter desired: 45 yard regulation group below:

That's a great load and chambering, matching pair!

I built a double for myself in 45-120 or really 450 3.25" Straight Nitro using basically the same loads as the 450 NE. My regulation load is 500grain at 2180 fps for around 5150 FPE. Its a thumper. My big dog though is a 577 NE I built, 750 grain at 2100 fps, ~7500 ish FPE, hope to use it on buff one day after the kids exist college.

I did have the interesting thought of making a matching pair of 50's, a 50-110 Win on a 1886 and a 50-110 same load on a Merkle Model 8 SxS with trash barrels I have. I was thinking 525 grain at 1900 FPS ~4000FPE, easy load.

577-

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I have the RCBS 450AK dies. Work fine for me. Not sure where you'd get them these days though.

This is my case exactly.

[577nitro]

I have the RCBS 450AK dies. Work fine for me. Not sure where you'd get them these days though.

This is my case exactly.

Yup, that’s the one I used, and sent that exact drawing to Hornady.

I had them make two sets, encase I sell the gun I still have a set for me. It only took six months to get them…

[Lastmohecken]

You know, I think I may be needing to turn my case necks, also. How did you turn your case necks down? Do you have a lathe, or do you use another method?

I bought the little Forster hand tool for it. It's quick work. You need to get the right mandrel/pilot for .458 cal when you order. My necks were very uneven in thickness ... the tool would take some from one side but not the other. The ends were not particularly square either but the RCBS trimmer quickly solved that. The QualCart people clearly weren't doing any clean-up after forming on that stuff.

This holder is probably superior to the one that comes with the Forster tool. I very often found myself just grasping the case with my hand instead of letting that set screw on the Forster mar the case head.

I used to fireform from .348 WCF but then I got old and lazy. That was 10 grains of Unique, then fill to the base of the neck with cream of wheat, then jam the neck into the bottom of a wax candle and wiggle it free to form a plug. Loud as hell though.

I think my cases, once prepped, held 88 grains of water ... maybe a smidge over.

Here she is ...



I should probably check the safe to make sure she's still in there ... the wife would love to sell her off and go shopping.

Beautiful rifle! Thanks for the info.

[Lastmohecken]

I have the RCBS 450AK dies. Work fine for me. Not sure where you'd get them these days though.

This is my case exactly.

I have RCBS dies, also. They came with the rifle, I purchased. I heard you could re size 50 Alaskan down to 450 AK, and You can, but I split my resizing die when trying that, so I sent it to RCBS, (it was an old die), but they made me a brand new one, at no charge.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Just some QuickLoad data. ...

I really wish Alliant would give the QuickLoad guy the data he needs to include their newer powders. It's been years now that they've been out, 300MP for example, but they are still not in QuickLoad.

I think that Barnes TSX extends a bit farther into the case, compared to a lead core, and thus reduces volume / changes the pressure profile. I never really took to those ... closest I came was the NorthFork which are, of course, solid copper on the bottom half and thus also a smidge longer.

[CowboyTutt]

Rim, I believe the newer Alliant powders are all there. Looking at the powder data base now. The reason 300 MP is not, is something about its chemical composition that defies the Quick Load algorithm. McPherson told me that particular powder will never be in the program data base because of that. Alliant does have loads with that powder on its website. I find it very similar in use to Lil' Gun. QL is tons of fun when you get more familiar with it. I don't post a lot of other powders you can use for safety reasons because QL WILL list very slow burning powders in empty cases that could lead to a detonation. The fast burning, easy to ignite, pistol powders in an empty case would probably be just fine but I don't post those either. For example, Alliant Blue Dot is very forgiving in this regard, but even it needs some pressure to work properly. I got erratic results with it at very low pressure loads in my 11mm Mauser. Had to bump it up a tad to get me better ES's, SD's and more consistent ignition. My data for the 450 AK was at 80% fill and I filtered out everything but the best powders for the job IMHO (in all reality I know just enough to be dangerous so I try to police myself!) So I'm careful what I post about this stuff. Where's my Brother Earl, we should get together and double check data to present to forum members. He's pretty savvy with QL too.
-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

I also hear you on the Barnes TSX, need to back off the lands a bit, but they do work so extremely well and more available then many bullets right now. And you don't have microscopic lead particles in your meat. That statement is going to probably get me in all SORTS of trouble , but I will stand by it. -Tutt

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Rim, I believe the newer Alliant powders are all there. Looking at the powder data base now. The reason 300 MP is not, is something about its chemical composition that defies the Quick Load algorithm...

I had hoped 300MP would show up in QL and that it could then be compared to old Norma R123. I've never found a powder that performed as well in smaller cases like the Hornet. I've also pulled some bullets of 5mm Remington Magnum and swapped in R123 and reseated. I think Lil'Gun is close but not quite ... perhaps better in some areas. Sadly, the last of my R123 is long gone.

I've not fired up QL in some years but I loved playing with it and looking for efficiencies. I always checked my loads for the 450 AK in QL before taking them to the range.