Rossi 92 and Ruger loads .45 Colt

[Scott Tschirhart]

I have a 5 shot Ruger Bisley in .45 Colt that John Linebaugh built years ago. Though I have not really pushed it, John says that I cannot stuff enough H110 behind any bullet to hurt this gun.

I passed on a Rossi.454 this week because I already have one in .45 Colt. But I wonder if this Rossi would not also take such a robust dose of H110?

[Larkbill]

Seems like Paco danced pretty close to that. Depending on bullet weight. I haven't come all that close because I don't want to abuse our silhouette targets. Plus some I have now are quite unpleasant with that curved metal butt.

https://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco ... vergun.htm

[piller]

I do not know the answer. Having a .480 caliber Rossi, it seems that the thicker metal of the .45 Colt chamber in a Rossi should withstand similar chamber pressures. This only a guess, and is not any sort of scientific answer. The .480 caliber has a max listed pressure of 48,000 and Hodgdon lists Ruger level loads for the .45 Colt up to 27,000. This leads me to think that the modern steel in a Rossi can handle the Ruger level loads. I am not suggesting it because I might cause someone to get hurt. I am simply pointing out listed chamber pressures in 2 different calibers that Rossi has made in the same gun.

[.45colt]

In '07 and '08 I pushed the .45 in a model 94 rifle using Paco's article as a guide. with a stiff load of 296 I saw 1700 + fps using my hardcast Keith/Lyman bullet. 265 grains. I think in a model 92 action it would be no problem as it is stronger than a 94. I got a 45-70 and that ended My experimenting with upper end .45's.

[Sarge]

Scott,

I found an [url]April '18 post I made on 45 Reloads over at Rossi Riflemen. While none of these are 454 level, it might be helpful as a frame of reference.

https://rossi-rifleman.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6098



Left to right-

1. My bulk 45 Colt Maplewood Bullets Lee 452-255-RF over 8.5 grains of Universal and does 910 fps from a 4 5/8” New Vaquero. This load does 1180 fps from the 20” Rossi. It's also the only load tested here that is safe in the New Vaquero and is a pussycat from the carbine.

Everything below is for heavy frame Rugers, Contenders and modern-made lever actions like the Winchester 92 & 94 clones and the 94 Marlins. Do not use them in Colt sized sixguns or toggle-link rifles like 1860 Henry or 1866 or 1873 Winchester clones.

2. A 255 grain Missouri Bullet SWC over 13.0 grains of HS6, always good for 1050-1075 fps from 4/58 to 5 ½ inch Rugers and 1232 fps from my previous 16” Rossi carbine. It did 1351 fps from the 20” Rossi.

3. A Sierra 240 grain JHP over 27.4 grains of H110 is a deer killin' machine at 1257 fps from a 5 1/2” Blackhawk. My previous 16” Rossi carbine produced 1550 fps with this load. It did 1699 fps from the 20” Rossi.

4. A 300 grain, .452" Hornady Mag XTPs; old production with a single cannelure over 22.0 grains of W296 powder. It runs 1093 fps from a 4 5/8” Vaquero and produced 1485 fps from the 20” Rossi.

5. The RCBS #82083 is listed as a 300 grain SWC with a gas check base; the alloy mine were cast from drops them at 315 grains, +/- a grain, for the finished bullet. I load it over 22.5 grains of W296 which scoots them to 1558 fps from the 20” Rossi. Not far behind standard loadings of the 45-70 and I doubt game under 1000 pounds could tell the difference.

Footnote- This rifle fed all these loads in a mixed magazine, no glitches or complaints.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Thanks Sarge! I have noticed that my Rossi rifles (all three of them) will feed ammo through the magazine that make my 73 and 66 rifles choke.

[Old Savage]

Cowboy Tutt gave me 100 rds of his special load he uses in his 5 1/2” stainless Ruger Bisley. Out of my 20 inch Rossi a 360 gr Keith SWC chronographed 1350 fps. IIRC they chronographed 1100 fps from his Ruger. I think he used Lil Gun. Recoil felt like a shotgun in the Rossi. I have put half of them through the Rossi with no issues.

[CowboyTutt]

O.S's memory is spot on. My 360 loads were straight from Hodgedon's data and is still in their current magazine and on the website I believe. How is the mag tube secured on the 45 Colt Rossi? They had to beef that up for the Casull versions. That is about the only part I might be worried about over time. Then again its a Rossi and build quality is inconsistent. -Tutt

[Scott Tschirhart]

Thanks for the replies. Mine is an old pre-safety Rossi (which was the only reason I bought it). So, I am sure that it is only attached by the screws in the bands.

[Old Savage]

The recoil speed seems slow with the heavy 360 like a shotgun and the pressures are not extreme like the 454. Likely easier on the gun as it is on the shoulder.

[earlmck]

I once loaded up 50 full-power loads for my 454 Rossi for a test I was running. I just looked at my notes; Magtech 454 cases, Hornady 300 gr XTP magnum bullet, Winchester small rifle primers, 30.0 Lil' Gun at 1.745" COAL was heavily compressed. Produced 2045 fps from the 20" bbl and was ouchy to shoot even with a slip-on recoil pad. I noted "slightly sticky extraction" so I will not load to that level again in that rifle, but it was probably pushing the Casull's 65k psi SAAMI limit even though QuickLoad thinks it would only run 55K. If you load 45 Colt cases to that length you'd get about the same pressure/velocity results.

The Rossi showed no problems but I only ran the 50 rounds through (plus a few others as I worked up to that velocity and also some using WW296 which didn't get quite as much velocity). I have the model which has the loading tube that screws into the frame which Rossi had to go to when their standard magazine tube attachment got kicked loose from Casull loads in the earlier model.

If I ever go salmon fishing in griz country this is the rifle and load I'll take along (backed off to 29 grains maybe). But short of that I don't think I'll ever shoot that level of load from this rifle again because it is not needed for anything I shoot here in Oregon and I do not subject my shoulder replacement metal joint to those type forces these days. But the rifle doesn't mind a bit.

I just played around in QuickLoad and it looks like if you load 45 Colt cases with that same Hornady bullet to a 1.65" length (my notes show I used that length for some Colt case loadings in my Rossi) with 25 grains Lil' gun you'd have about the same heavy compression I had in my Casull load. QL thinks pressures would be 42K psi which would hardly be noticed in a Ruger or a Rossi, though as I mentioned I think my actual pressures must have been more than QL predicted for my Casull loading because of noticing the sticky extraction.

QL thinks you could stuff 26 grains of H110 into the case at the same compression level and get almost as much velocity (1764 fps from 20" bbl) at 46K psi. So John was right -- can't get enough H110 in there to hurt a Ruger though it would sure take an old Colt apart at the seams. And the Rossi will easily take the same.

[Old Savage]

Tutt has an earlier 454 that he had some issues with. He might explain the details.

[CowboyTutt]

Boy did I ever. Drove McPherson crazy for almost 2 years. First the very small crack in the buttstock by the tang. I have never known a 454 Rossi to not crack the stock somewhere fore or aft. A combination of the quality of wood, the fitting, and the sharp recoil pulse of the Casull. Maybe Earl's has not cracked. Mic lengthened the action, fixed the crack, silicone bedded the wood, through-bolt conversion, NP3 plated the internals. All was good for a short time. Then it started to bend the lever. He straightened it. It bent again. Mic had never seen this happen. He eventually completely went through the internals of the rifle and all the bolt thrust was being taken on one lug. He hand fitted the internal parts which stopped the twisting of the lever. I think the lever is not properly hardened and needs to be.

Earl, my standard load is 29 grains of Lil'Gun, same bullet, with a BR-4 primer which is milder than your Winchester primer and might change pressures. 30-31 grains maxed out. Depending on the firearm 31 is too much. Fine in my RB revolver but would stick in my friends BFR in 454. -Tutt

[Old Savage]

Ok Tutt, but what was the 45 Colt load?

[Scott Tschirhart]

I was thinking more around 21-23 gr H110 so I’m glad to hear that I was considerably under your experiments. Thank you for giving such detailed accounts.

[CowboyTutt]

I'll see if I can find that O.S. but at the same time, maybe the exact load should remain a mystery so people take the time to work up a load in their own gun based upon Hodgdon's manual and the particulars of their gun. Keep in mind the 45 Colt Ruger New Model Blackhawks were notorious for undersized chambers that most often needed reaming to .452. This would play havoc with accuracy and pressures. At the time and using that load, my Bisley had been "improved" by Bob Munden and he reamed out my chambers to .452 per my request. I have never fire-lapped the bore of my Bisley for further constrictions that often happen in the neck of the barrel where it mounts into the frame. All of these factors together could result in the bullet starting out being choked in the undersized cylinder (I think most were .451), possibly enlarging and going through the forcing cone OK, and then maybe being slightly choked again in the early part of the barrel bore then going out the rest of the bore maybe expanding again. All of this was a total hot mess.

A '92 Rossie Levergun is a whole other animal here. I think there is no better expert on that then Paco himself and I believe he wrote about it. I'm fairly sure my loads for the 45 Colt were based upon H110 with a CCI 350 LP magnum primer to set it off. H110 needs some compression and a hot primer to set it all off.

-Tutt

[Old Savage]

Well Ok then, I have it somewhere but secret it shall remain for your concerns.

[CowboyTutt]

O.S. my records show I did use H110 and a CCI 350 primer with a load on the low end of things. Work up your loads at your own discretion to your gun. -Tutt

[Old Savage]

Andy, I checked the box of the loads and indeed it is H110.

[Old Savage]

In rereading Paco’s excellent article here on Leverguns I note that the 360 gr loads you gave me that clocked 1350 fps out of a 20” Rossi 92 are well below Paco’s top loads and fall within the Ruger and Contender only loads listed in some manuals.

[CowboyTutt]

Thanks Fred! I bet my loads were about 29-30 PSI at most. That is the industry standard for "Ruger loads". Paco's max levergun loads were smoking by comparison....

-Tutt

[Old Savage]

Rough comparison, I think you are right. You were well under limits. Paco had a great deal of knowledge when he was experimenting.

[CowboyTutt]

I'm thinking that the Mt. Baldy 360 Keith bullet I used were maybe a little bit longer than the current listings in the Hodgdon manual for a 360 CP LFN gas checked bullet (Frank at Mt. Baldy always called these "alphabet bullets" LOL!) so I reduced the load by about 2 grains to compensate for it. The CCI 350 was McPherson's recommendation to be sure that all the H110 (substitute Win 296 anymore and is current practice in Hodgdon 2021 manual) would get burned up for more consistency. All that being said, there are so many variables here between the throats and barrel gap of the revolver used, or whether used in a copy of a Win '92 and which one, or the actual case capacity of your brass, or the year and lot of the powder, primer substituted, anything can go very right, or go very wrong. Old Ruger Super Blackhawks I would be cautious with. I am curios of the specs of the new 454 5 shot Bisleys. Did Ruger finally figure it out? Curious. I would be interested in one except my 45 Colt Bisley is already a real handful to shoot with that load at its weight. O.S, you shot it better than I did back in the day! In a modern '92 levergun, probably much more room for error. -Tutt

[piller]

Andy, loads like that sound capable of great accuracy plus enough power to kill any animal in the U.S.

[Old Savage]

Apparently Rossi 45 Colts tend to be a bit oversized in the barrels specs. These being .453 and long were quite accurate in my Rossi, 3 in an inch at 50 yds as I recall. My three screw Ruger in 45 Colt has correct throats in the cylinder.

[CowboyTutt]

One of the few things that was NOT corrected with my 454 Puma Rossi rifle was the barrel. I slugged it myself. Perfect .452. Even Mic said I had a good barrel on this one.
-Tutt

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

As Andy found, the early 454's had some problems. But, now 20 yesrs later they are doing pretty good, at least the actions are. The wood takes a pounding but some bedding will take care of that.

One of the things I don't care for is the 454's only come as light weight round barrel carbines.
So I took this 45lc 24" octagon and converted it to 454. I haven't shot it much, maybe 100 rounds. So far it's doing just fine

[mickbr]

That looks impressive Steve. Thanks for the photo.

[Scott Tschirhart]

That is a really good looking rifle Steve!

[BigBorePlinkingAUS]

G'day not a rossi but i have a chiappa 92 carbine in .45 colt and a mate gave me a few hand loads he shoots in his rossi 92 . He said its 20 grs of H4227 , 250GR hornady XTP Jacketed hollowpoint and just a winchester large pistol primer . Would this be safe in a chiappa ? Having a hard time finding info any help would be much appreciated. Edit: .452 diameter if that makes a difference.

[CowboyTutt]

That's a textbook Hodgdon load at the beginning level charge using that powder in a Ruger or "+P" load. The current manual states it operates at 23,500 CUP. The same bullet in "regular" 45 Colt from the same manual but different powders operate at a max of 14,000 CUP. I would suspect you are fine, but I am in no way a gunsmith. Nate Jones who posted on this thread might know the answer to your question, he lives and breaths '92's. -Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

As Andy found, the early 454's had some problems. But, now 20 yesrs later they are doing pretty good, at least the actions are. The wood takes a pounding but some bedding will take care of that.

One of the things I don't care for is the 454's only come as light weight round barrel carbines.
So I took this 45lc 24" octagon and converted it to 454. I haven't shot it much, maybe 100 rounds. So far it's doing just fine

Steve, Mic added a premium recoil pad and merc tube to mine, so its a little heavier and is not so painful to shoot. That steel buttplate on your converted 454 makes me want to pull out my 36 DD magnum gun bra LOL. -Tutt

[BigBorePlinkingAUS]

Cheers for the reply Tutt, chiappa customer service was as useful as tits on a bull.

[Sarge]

Apparently Rossi 45 Colts tend to be a bit oversized in the barrels specs. These being .453 and long were quite accurate in my Rossi, 3 in an inch at 50 yds as I recall. My three screw Ruger in 45 Colt has correct throats in the cylinder.

I believe you are correct. Both my Rossi 45 Colts shot great with .454" lead bullets or 250 & 300 grain XTPs.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Steve, Mic added a premium recoil pad and merc tube to mine, so its a little heavier and is not so painful to shoot. That steel buttplate on your converted 454 makes me want to pull out my 36 DD magnum gun bra LOL. -Tutt

Yep, even with the heavier 24" octagon it still wasn't all that pleasant.

This one, built for a customer was much more pleasnt. With a ported 30" barrel and premium pad it wasn't bad at all. (however with 15 rounds in the tube, standing off hand was tiring )

[.45colt]

That's quite a Rifle there Steve. . I found a few more of my note cards from 07-08 . shooting a 200 grain Hornady jacketed bullet over a case full of 296 the Colt averaged 1981fps out of the 24" barrel. that's about where I quit.

[Scott Tschirhart]

That's beautiful work Steve. You should post photos more often.

I just sent you an email about a project.

[CowboyTutt]

Steve, this is an amazing rifle with its 1st class wood. Not sure your working much now, and I don't see the need for a 30" barrel in this cartridge considering the ballistics and powder burn, but it would allow an even longer sight radius and with it a full length mag tube and a lot more rounds. Glad you made this rifle. It turns out Rossie does still manufacture these rifles. My 454 was splitting the stock like they pretty much all did at the time 15 years ago, and mine had further issues that needed to be addressed that I hope Rossie worked out. McPherson did tune it up, and it works great now. The barrel was just fine.
Took me 3 pages to write up all the upgrades he did. 3 pages of "blue lined" notebook paper. Its not nearly as pretty as this gun that you made. But it functions well. -Tutt

[Sevastopol]

Catching a ride.

[Scott Tschirhart]

1. My bulk 45 Colt Maplewood Bullets Lee 452-255-RF over 8.5 grains of Universal and does 910 fps from a 4 5/8” New Vaquero. This load does 1180 fps from the 20” Rossi. It's also the only load tested here that is safe in the New Vaquero and is a pussycat from the carbine.

Sarge,

Thanks for sharing. I take it that Universal is pretty close to Unique in burning charactoristics? I've never used it, but I have read that it is considerably cleaner and may meter better than Unique.

Can't get anything right now, so I will have to stick to Unique for my uses.

I've pretty much settled on 8.5 gr of Unique under anything between a 250 to 270 grain slug because I have a toggle action rifle and a second gen SAA and I would hate to damage either one. This is a little over book for some manuals, but I think it should drive just about any lead slug through the other side of any deer in Texas.

[piller]

I used to think that only the fastest and most powerful loads were interesting. Accuracy that can be relied on to happen every time is more what I want now. Power levels are still to be considered, but not everything needs to be hit by Mjolnir at light speed.
What Tutt had done to his . 454 Casull carbine sounds as if it tamed the recoil to an acceptable level.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Piller I did the same thing.

I hurt my hand badly pushing a .500 Linebaugh too hard. I never really needed that kind of power, but I was infatuated with it.

Now I want something that is easier on my hands and easier on my ears. But I am also convinced that a 270SAA bullet around 900 fps should do the trick.

Here's a photo of one such bullet that I drove through a good sized cow last year out of a 5.5 inch Ruger.

[piller]

Looks as if it worked perfectly.

[Old Savage]

Power mad pistoleros ??? Jack Huntington was making various big 475s and 50s for a local fellow here hunting in Africa. I recall Jack used one on antelope in Wyoming one year.

[wvfarrier]

Scott, while not quite as hot as Paco's loads, I am running a max (Ruger Only) load in my Rossi 92 and its been great. I had to add a recoil pad, the steel buttplate was kicking my butt. Its very accurate and the recoil is on par with a 45-70. I am primarily using a 300 grain HCGC.

This load will penetrate a pork shoulder covered by a piece of carpet and 6-1 gallon water jugs at 30 yards.

[Sarge]

1. My bulk 45 Colt Maplewood Bullets Lee 452-255-RF over 8.5 grains of Universal and does 910 fps from a 4 5/8” New Vaquero. This load does 1180 fps from the 20” Rossi. It's also the only load tested here that is safe in the New Vaquero and is a pussycat from the carbine.

Sarge,

Thanks for sharing. I take it that Universal is pretty close to Unique in burning charactoristics? I've never used it, but I have read that it is considerably cleaner and may meter better than Unique.

Can't get anything right now, so I will have to stick to Unique for my uses.

I've pretty much settled on 8.5 gr of Unique under anything between a 250 to 270 grain slug because I have a toggle action rifle and a second gen SAA and I would hate to damage either one. This is a little over book for some manuals, but I think it should drive just about any lead slug through the other side of any deer in Texas.

Scott,

I loaded Unique from the mid 70s to mid 90s, mostly in 38 & 44 Special and 45 Auto. An older brother gave me a can of Universal, not long after it came out and it metered so much better I kept using it. My experience with Universal tells me the sweet spot is from the middle to warm range of loads. Unique handles that fine and is great for light loads too. Truthfully, I think it's the more versatile powder.

I am right there with you on that 8.5 grain (with either powder) 45 Colt load being a great all around load. On another note I've got 300 Lyman 429667 (dropping about 250 grains)
https://www.handloadermagazine.com/mike ... in-shack-0
coming for the Uberti 44 and whatever lever action becomes its stable mate. I'll probably load those to 1000 fps or so with HS6. I've got some on hand and a store here in town stocks it,

[Scott Tschirhart]

Finding powder or primers around here is a bit difficult currently. So I have some 8 pound jugs of Unique put back. Good stuff.

[piller]

I have never tried Unique. Universal is a bit smoky in a .327 Magnum. I am having a difficult time finding powder around here, and am just being sort of sparing of what I have.