FOR SIXGUN

[JimT]

Me and the WebServant got this email ...

Sorry to bug you - especially if you receive a ton of questions. Dad never had sons so he and I used to go shooting together. He recently passed away and he willed me this rifle. We never used this one. The metal parts look almost dark blue and dark copper. This Winchester has one barrel, octagon shaped and it has a scope. It kind of looks like those 1894 Winchesters but it doesn't have the plaque saying it or have two barrels. Any idea what it is and when it was made? Thanks for any help.
- Amy

HERE ARE THE PHOTOS SHE SENT

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[GunnyMack]

Minty lookin to me! Very nice, sorry for her loss.

[AmBraCol]

Is it "minty" or "refinishedey"? That view of the left side of the receiver looks odd to me.

[Sixgun]

Jim,
She's a nice one! But unfortunately, it's been refinished.......that one is called the button mag variation which was a special order at the time but for some reason it will not command a premium unless there's other special order features that come with it....a single set trigger would show the original owner was a target shooter and therefore, bring a premium.

Made in 1901 by the book I have....same year my grandmother was made, but the gun and my grandmother were made by two entirely different manufacturing methods.

But....there is one small light at the end of the tunnel which will put the value in between a $49.99 gun shop reblue and a new minty one which would be $3500 or more......and that is it looks like a factory reblue from the 1930's. I've seen a lot of them and for some reason or another, the factory refinished ones have the receiver polished with what looks like 320 grit....

Hammers and levers from that period were color case hardened.

Has the original nickel silver front sight, a nice 2 leaf express barrel rear sight and an original Lyman tang.....a $200-$300 additive, combined......wood to metal fit is definitely not like they are supposed to be but is still nice. Whomever did it, did it with care....it's not all ground to hell.

If your friend could pop off the buttstock, there MAY be a factory stamping on the side of the tang that says "refinished". If so, it's an $16-2000 gun......

In my buying days I would turn my nose up to a gun like that but anymore the pickings are slim as noticed by people paying big money for Winchesters made after the war which I never looked at unless they were a 71, 64, or a 61.

If it's a aftermarket blue job by a good gunsmith, I'd say that gun is a $1000-1500 gun nowadays.....10 years ago it may have brought $7-900 but Obama devalued the money so bad that $100 bills now buy what Grants used to buy.

Your Winchester (and Colt) connection.------Double O Six

[JimT]

Thanks my friend.
I appreciate the help.
I will pass it on to the lady.
I do not believe she wishes to sell it. She just wanted to know what it was.

[Sixgun]

You are most welcome Jim...if I had it in my hands I could triple the answer....little things that don't come up in pictures.

You take a rifle like that and hunt with it in nasty weather, shoot 500-1,000 rounds out of it, it'll look a lot better.

Back in the day when a dollar looked as big as Elmer Keith's hat (he said that) it was common for everyday folk to take a rifle that was in the family for many years and send it back to the factory for a complete overhaul.......in those days the roll marks, jigs, and extra parts were still around..........it might cost the owner half of what a new rifle costs......and when they got it back it was HANDS OFF! Grand Pa's old shooting iron was a keepsake for the ones who knew him.......then what happens and what is so common today, eventual heirs want to take a trip to the islands so they do it on Grand Pa's dime.---006


It is said that if all of the money and valuables in the world was evenly distributed throughout everyone, that in 10 years the original owners would have it all back...and that includes all of the nice Winchesters & Colts........they would be back in my gunroom......

[AmBraCol]

Thanks, 006! I was pretty sure it was a refinish, now I'm curious about the details (who? when? where? why?) most of which we'll probably never know. If it were in my family I'd be looking at the possibility of a factory letter to see how it all started out. Unfortunately my great-grandfather's collection was appropriated by one of his sons-in-law who apparently sold them down the river. Even his son (my mom's cousin) who was also a gun-nut had no clue as to exactly what he'd had and where they ended up. Anyway, I appreciate you filling in the blanks you could on this one. I was intrigued from when I first saw the pics.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Definately a reblue. To me the main tell is the purple barrel from over temped bluing salts.

[Sixgun]

This is what a real rifle is supposed to look like......a very fine 1886 in 45-90 that a buddy brought over today to rub my nose in. Built in 1894.---00

Lets pretend you bought this at fair market value then kept it for 10 years and then sold it for fair market value...you could buy the whole Rossi factory with the profits alone....

[Bronco]

I am beginning to think 6 does not like Rossi's !
I wish he would stop beating around the bush and come right out with it!

[Old Savage]

Six, be careful, those have been known to let go.

[Old Savage]

Well Bronc, he did open the door on this one. That fine Rossi you see with the Colt below has been accuracy tested by a range officer from the Beverly Hills PD and found to be right on right out of the box, a winner from our fine friends south of the equator, no banana in the tail pipe here

By contrast if you want a new one marked Winchester you will have to get it from across the international date line at a cost of likely at least ten Bens.

In honor of my fine friend from the east I think I will name my .357 Rossi Trapper … Sixgun!!! A fine shooter it is!!! And —— good looking!

[Old Savage]

https://www.thesixgunjournal.net/the-35 ... perfected/

Here is an article from thesixgunjournal on the Sixgun

[Sixgun]

I am beginning to think 6 does not like Rossi's !
I wish he would stop beating around the bush and come right out with it!

Bronco,
You and I have done business before and I know you to be a man of quality......just disregard good ole Old Savage's remarks and futile attempts to push my buttons...he's been in the California heat too long and is surrounded by foreigners from "down below".

He means well but has been "out influenced".

It is said that in a group of people of mixed heritages, customs, cultures, and races that the stronger personalities always win out and become the leaders of that group where the rest of the members of that group become subservient and will adopt/become the leaders ways and thought processes.

I am a true blooded American Nationalist.......

Did I mean all of those "smiley emojis"? You figure it out.

[Old Savage]

I’ll tell you Bronc, you got to get up pretty early in the morning to get ahead of old 6. I must have slept in. Seems clear the Leader of the Pack was not going to go for that news about Sixgun, my trusty Rossi Trapper. The engraver wants to know do I want 14 or 18k gold.

But Bronc, do you have a Win 92? I think 32-20 is my preference. The Sixer helped get me set up for those.

[Old Savage]

Well, off to golf with some of my bearded buddies.

[Sixgun]

Hey Fred...you know I'm only B.B.....Rossi's are what they are and if you luck out and get a good one then it's OK....you obviously got a good one but it should not be that way...they ALL or at least 98% of them should be.

I've never even shot one...handled a few and fixed a few.....my crowd, or the crowd I used to hang around, don't go for them. Yesterday, when my bud showed up with that '86 I would have been all over it as not one in a hundred looks that nice. Anymore, it's all the same as a child playing with blocks.....old

Well, cut the front 2 acres and good ole Six is done....the other two is gonna have to wait as Miss Apple is demanding my attention for a walk about......

Fred.....that's a rough crowd your with there......I understand their language and I'd fit right in........let's see, you got a brother, a Pakistani, and two good ole boys.....quite a bit of diversity.

Funny thing...I read your caption a little too fast and I thought it said "a few of my bearded clams"....-----006

[Bronco]

My lever guns consist of a Daisy Red Rider, a Marlin 1894 CB - 24" barrel in 44 mag, a Brownchester 86 saddle ring in 45-70 and a Brownchester M71 - 32" barrel in 50-110!
A nice 92 in 32-20 would be awesome to park in the new safe I would have to get ! Mine is packed so full you have to have things just right to close the door.

[Old Savage]

006er, maybe should stay in you lane on diversity, no Pakistani there. All are some flavor of Hispanic except the retired biker boy. Too complicated out here to understand from near Philly.

I have two good Rossis and have seen a few more. I have had Wins with problems. Not brand loyal here in anything. I look over the individual pieces and don’t order anything except a recent Md 60 3” Smith that has some curious line alignments. So I have had less than superlative Wins, Colts and Smiths. One M 29 a vice pres was calling me about.

Again diversity, their interests and opinions out here are beyond the experience you describe to accurately understand. Explaining to the bros last week that it is not set up to go their way and they are falling for the con. We’ll see how that goes.

[JOG]

Up here in Maine diversity means one of your white friends saw a black guy in a corolla last summer!
You guys always get me chuckling when the Rossi 92 vs, well anything!
Whatever float's your boat. I myself enjoy Winchester's Marlin's and a few old Remington's!
Keep up the witty banter Six and Old Savage!
You could tell both you gentleman have mutual respect for each other!
Johnny

[Sixgun]

Up here in Maine diversity means one of your white friends saw a black guy in a corolla last summer!
You guys always get me chuckling when the Rossi 92 vs, well anything!
Whatever float's your boat. I myself enjoy Winchester's Marlin's and a few old Remington's!
Keep up the witty banter Six and Old Savage!
You could tell both you gentleman have mutual respect for each other!
Johnny

Oh Lordy! I was feeling beat as I just came in from push mowing an area the tractor can't get into....sweat pouring out..bugs all over my body...jumped in the shower and I thought the drain was gonna clog up with filth....came out....and turned this on and I spit up my 32 ounce orange juice when I read that thing about your buddy seeing a bro in the corolla!

Thanks Johnny...yes...we have some good dudes here....me and Old Savage go back to 1921 when we were prospecting in the Sierra
Madre mountains with Humphrey Bogart......When we were sitting around the campfire good ole Humphrey used to tell Old Savage,"Hey! Don't bogart that joint!"----00

[gamekeeper]

Show us your badges !

[Old Savage]

Ok, commander

[black river smith]

JimT,

I know I am late into this discussion but that is a very nice looking 1894 button octagon barrelled 30/30 with custom 3leaf folding rear sight.

I have read through most of the posting and I do not want to get into an argument with some but by three different 1894 serial # records website that 113271 serial number should date around the 1897 to 1898 time frame.

http://www.savage99.com/winchester1894_dates.htm --- if you enter your serial # it returns 1898

http://www.oldguns.net/sn_php/windateslookup.php --- if you enter your serial # it returns 1898

https://www.winchesterguns.com/content/ ... uments.pdf ---- This link provides most Winchester Firearms Manufacturing Dates by Serial Number and Year 1866 through the early 1990s. The summary table below is a copy of the listing for the RECORDS AT THE FACTORY, AND IN SOME YEARS, ESTIMATES, INDICATE THE FOLLOWING SERlAL NUMBERS WERE ASSIGNED TO GUNS AT THE END OF THE CALENDAR YEAR. MODEL 94; the list is of serial #'s from 1894 to 1902.
1894- 1 TO 14579
95 - 44359
96 - 76464
97 - 111453
98 - 147684
99 - 183371
1900 - 204427
01 - 233975
02 - 273854

You can see that your 113271 serial # could fall between 1897 or 1898 by this chart.

In my mind this is a very old and rare version of the 1894 even though it has definitely been refinished. Nice treasure to own.

PS -- That scope you refer is that the original looking tang sight?

[Sixgun]

Ok, commander

Ok...you have a $1.98 bronze plated badge, a $5.99 knife from the sixties, and some brass coated aluminum token from Chuck E. Cheese....where's the pictures you promised...you know, the soft stuff.-----00

[Sixgun]

Jim...Black River Smith has a good point....an 1898 date makes it "antique" according to the ATF. I have no idea what source they use in determining antique status but if it is 1898 or earlier, about a 30% premium goes on top of what I quoted as to value. "For those who don't know, a gun classified as an antique is not considered a firearm unless you live in a communist state and the gun will fire readily available ammo.-----006

[Old Savage]

Yo, dude that is solid copper. The badge was like $6.99 in Death Valley but, pretty good ID on the Imperial, R.I.

You probably know the history there of the pocket knives companies.

Soft stuff scarcer these day, have to talk Rossis and stuff.

[Sixgun]

Fred....the knife........every boy about 10-14 years of age dream.....I still have one downstairs just like it but it has white handles. What's the funny looking blade for as it ain't a saw......fish scaler? and the thing on the end..for hooks? I know virtually nothing about fishing.

Cool knife though...60 years old and like new.......yes, in our phone call you did say all of your stuff is "el primo" and I believe it.

Well done Master!

On a thought, even if the badge is pure gold with diamonds on it, it really doesn't matter does it?...in the scheme of life.---00

Even the Winchesters and Colts...it's all just bravado

[Old Savage]

The knife was a gift from a good friend of almost 40 years. That funny blade is a hook disgorger/fish scaler. Our daughter takes us on these trips and I buy some small souvenir from each. The desk in my office of 38 years has a number. Got thinking I should get a Case knife like it. Then searching for some old glasses I found one I got in the accident recovery search the internet for knives period. The copper coin is from a copper mining town now tourist trap near Sedona, a gift from my oldest daughter.

[Old Savage]

For that 10-14 period here was the one. Unfortunately it was stolen from my car in 75. Took 40 years to find one like it finally on eBay. Somebody was bidding with me. I put $100 tops on it. whoever dropped out long before so I got it for much less.

[Sixgun]

Dang Fred...I have one just like it I would have given you ...yea...old Barlow with the fake stag!bone/whatever handles....but mine don't look as nice as yours.

Beings that I offered you my old junky knife for free , does that mean, "can I have yours?" ---006

[Old Savage]

I was thinking along those lines, guns I have been given would cover about anything … except a … I shot a minty Win 62 like yours. I was thinking in your collection $1200 or whatever is not even a blip. So I was thinking you could send me that 62 to augment my collection which beside yours would be looking waaaayyy up to see the top.

[JOG]

I heard from a reliable source that Old Savage showed his badge to the Hispanic landscapers working the golf course.
He claimed to be I.N.S.! After frisking all those Geraldo Rivera look a likes a knife was found and confiscated by Fred under the threat of deportation.
They bargained back and forth until a mutual decision had been reached. They would pose for a photo to keep Fred from being kick out of his Democrat run 65 and over condo complex! There were rumors circulating about his lack of brown friends. Diversity is mandatory in his complex, along with tapioca and rice pudding while watching reruns of Barnaby Jones! That Buddy Ebsen was a very spry 92 year old. I think he did his own stunt's!
Johnny All for fun!

[Jay Bird]

Ya know Fred...there's a reason why the Good Lord put me in Pa. and JOG in Maine.......us together would mean Big House time or as the old saying goes, "partners in crime"

Heeeeeerrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeesssssss JOHNNY!!

[Sixgun]

Yea...yea...you tell em Birdman! Good ole Birdman is back in town!----006

[Old Savage]

As the years wear on we could long to return to yesteryear rather than the current days

[marlinman93]

Thanks my friend.
I appreciate the help.
I will pass it on to the lady.
I do not believe she wishes to sell it. She just wanted to know what it was.

If she was to have someone remove the tang sight, they'd find the "missing" Winchester markings she can't find.