Action Strength and the Puma 92, Marlin 336

[AJMD429]

I see reloading manuals differentiate between "Ruger No. 1" and "Marlin 1895/336 Lever Actions" and "Old Guns" when it comes to .45-70 loads, and wonder how anyone knows really how far to push the Marlins?

I also saw a bunch of reports of the .454 Puma's cracking the stock, which I figured you can get around by careful bedding, but I ALSO saw some reports of splitting cases, stretching cases, etc., and wasn't able to find any follow up on those reports to see what the problem was determined to be for sure.

I was looking at my Encore .45-70, and although the gun is also available chambered for 7mm Rem Mag, which is a large-diameter, high-pressure, tapered/bottleneck case, I can't see how the lockup would be as strong as the Marlin 1895/336, and the metal doesn't look much thicker.

Maybe someone brave and wealthy with nothing to do should rebarrel an 1895 in 7mm Mag and single-load hot rounds in it to see how long it holds up/

Seriously though, when it comes to the '92 Winchester and '95 Marlin, what do we REALLY know about action strength of these two types of guns...? Can you tell if a given load is safe in a given gun just because after 500 or 1,000 rounds it hasn't blown up ('yet')?

I would assume some members have fired many thousands of rounds through the .454 rifles by now, let along the venerable .45-70's - and I'm sure some folks are using pretty spicy loads. Just interested to see what our esteemed levergun experts here think about action strength.

[piller]

Good questions.

[Hobie]

I'm not sure I understand the question. I think you're talking apples and oranges. It isn't just metal thickness but type of metal and how it is organized (assembled) that work together to give strength. I've read books on the subject as have others. It is next to impossible to distill it down to something we can post every 6 months on the forum.

The Encore is fine with standard magnums and the .45-70. Ultra Short magnums (those big fat short cases on case heads larger than the .375 Winchester/.458 Winchester) have apparently been problematic because of the larger case head resulting in greater breach thrust.

The 92 is considered stronger than the 336 because it does handle the pressures of the .454 far longer than the Marlin 94, 336 or Winchester 94 could possibly (and yes, folks have tried it). This comes from the way the metal is heat treated and from the design of the action.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

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I was looking at my Encore .45-70, and although the gun is also available chambered for 7mm Rem Mag, which is a large-diameter, high-pressure, tapered/bottleneck case, I can't see how the lockup would be as strong as the Marlin 1895/336, and the metal doesn't look much thicker.

Seriously though, when it comes to the '92 Winchester and '95 Marlin, what do we REALLY know about action strength of these two types of guns...?

The TC is a standing breech design. The force is straight back against the fixed breech face. The lockup is below and parallel to the force. It is much stronger than the Marlin. The marlin is even weaker than the 92. This is mainly because the marlins single locking bolt has to have a more sever angle in relation to the breech bolt. A more perpendicular angle will cause the bolt to stick under heavy loads but at the same time the 336 angle now allows the lever to be thrown open under heavy loads, too. The angle used in the 336/95 is the best compromise for the design.
The 92/86 action is stronger for the same reason. The twin locking bolts allow for a more perpendicular angle for higher pressures but still allow the action to open but not prematurely.



Can you tell if a given load is safe in a given gun just because after 500 or 1,000 rounds it hasn't blown up ('yet')?

What we know is the action types are tested with proof loads that are much higher than max safe loads. After repeated proof test averaging the results will give you parameters.

I would assume some members have fired many thousands of rounds through the .454 rifles by now, let along the venerable .45-70's - and I'm sure some folks are using pretty spicy loads. Just interested to see what our esteemed levergun experts here think about action strength.


As for the 454 verses the 45-70 pressure wise there is no comparison. The 45-70 is much lower.

These aren't hard and fast rules. There are other design consideration that come into play.

[AJMD429]

..........................................................................


I was looking at my Encore .45-70, and although the gun is also available chambered for 7mm Rem Mag, which is a large-diameter, high-pressure, tapered/bottleneck case, I can't see how the lockup would be as strong as the Marlin 1895/336, and the metal doesn't look much thicker.

Seriously though, when it comes to the '92 Winchester and '95 Marlin, what do we REALLY know about action strength of these two types of guns...?

The TC is a standing breech design. The force is straight back against the fixed breech face. The lockup is below and parallel to the force. It is much stronger than the Marlin. The marlin is even weaker than the 92. This is mainly because the marlins single locking bolt has to have a more sever angle in relation to the breech bolt. A more perpendicular angle will cause the bolt to stick under heavy loads but at the same time the 336 angle now allows the lever to be thrown open under heavy loads, too. The angle used in the 336/95 is the best compromise for the design.
The 92/86 action is stronger for the same reason. The twin locking bolts allow for a more perpendicular angle for higher pressures but still allow the action to open but not prematurely.



Can you tell if a given load is safe in a given gun just because after 500 or 1,000 rounds it hasn't blown up ('yet')?

What we know is the action types are tested with proof loads that are much higher than max safe loads. After repeated proof test averaging the results will give you parameters.

I would assume some members have fired many thousands of rounds through the .454 rifles by now, let along the venerable .45-70's - and I'm sure some folks are using pretty spicy loads. Just interested to see what our esteemed levergun experts here think about action strength.


As for the 454 verses the 45-70 pressure wise there is no comparison. The 45-70 is much lower.

These aren't hard and fast rules. There are other design consideration that come into play.

I appreciate the response/information. I didn't mean to take up forum space beating the dead horse of action merits and strengths, but it is a very important topic for those who want to push the limits of a given cartridge, or who want the biggest margin of safety for relatively normal loadings.

I hadn't thought about the angles and so forth with the locking bolt for the different actions, and that makes alot of sense.

Personally, I just want to use stout-but-not-maximum loads in my .45-70 Marlin and my .454 Puma, and not have to worry about "shooting them loose" or worse yet, blowing them up.

If I can use stouter .45-70 loads in the Encore, then maybe I will at some point, though unless I go to Africa, the only 'extra' it seems I could expect from the extra hot loads would be more shoulder pain...

Anyway, thanks. I like a forum where there isn't a penalty for asking a stupid question; I've got at least 5,000 more to ask sometime.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I don't think it's a stupid question and to be honest with you, early on I really had my doubts about the 454 casull 92's, but they have proven to be tuff enough it seems. Atleast the actions are. All the other stuff hanging on them is getting the he!! beat out of it. although they have pretty much cured the mag tube problem but the split stocks are still showing up. Glass bedding generally takes care of that, though.

[AJMD429]

...although they have pretty much cured the mag tube problem but the split stocks are still showing up. Glass bedding generally takes care of that, though.

I don't know if they are all this way, but my Puma .454 has a clear vinyl-looking tubing slipped over the stock/tang screw. I'm not sure what good it does, but my .357 & .44 don't have that.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

...although they have pretty much cured the mag tube problem but the split stocks are still showing up. Glass bedding generally takes care of that, though.

I don't know if they are all this way, but my Puma .454 has a clear vinyl-looking tubing slipped over the stock/tang screw. I'm not sure what good it does, but my .357 & .44 don't have that.

I know the part you speak of. It was added about the time they stated screwing the tubes into the frrame. It might help some but will never take the place of well fitted stock or second best, glass beading.