OT M1 Carbine Help

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Mon May 19, 2008 8:07 pm

I know there's no pix yet.. BUT... My nephew using an ID Book for carbines.. I don't recall the author's name..the book is the one that's spiral bound to take to gun shows...So the nephew has used it to ID an authentic (we think) un messed with carbine that has just come out from under a WWII vets bed.. Wear marks & patinated areas are per the books info..It's a 43 Saginaw in great condition..Never in for ANY mods..Of course we're wanting to know what one of these babies could sell for..An additional piece of info that we don't know what do with is that it sits in a 43 Winchester high wood I cut stock that has no marks on it other than the correct acceptance marks.. No mod stamps on it either!.. So we're thinking Battlefield Mod..So is that a positive or a negative? What would that do to increase or decrease a sale and price? Sling is right too..Hope to get pix in a few days Any help will be greatly appreciated..

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Mon May 19, 2008 8:44 pm

M1 carbines rarely came out of a factory with parts all from the same factory. Winchester wood on a Sag. S.G. action is more than acceptable especially one that had seen service. An all matching ( factory proof) carbine is one that has most likely been put together post WWII.

There were many companies that made Carbine parts.

I'm sure I'll get blasted for this but I was given this info by a Carbine collector that I have no reason to doubt.

WWII vintage( no bayonet lug, flip sight, push button safety) carbines will
Bring a premium but any decent carbine will fetch at least $500 to start.

jb

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:12 pm

2ndovc.. Thanks for that input..I think you're right about everything but the stock..The stocks had gubment acceptance marks that were specific to the mfg.. I'm thinking this is more of a battlefield replacement type deal than a mod..

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:16 pm

That sounds like something to hang onto.

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Mon May 19, 2008 10:55 pm

You'll get some good info at the Civilian Marksmanship Program website, (CMP).
http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=32
Saw you posted at ParallaxBill, too. Great place to hang out as well.

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 am

2ndovc wrote:M1 carbines rarely came out of a factory with parts all from the same factory. Winchester wood on a Sag. S.G. action is more than acceptable especially one that had seen service. An all matching ( factory proof) carbine is one that has most likely been put together post WWII.

There were many companies that made Carbine parts.

I'm sure I'll get blasted for this but I was given this info by a Carbine collector that I have no reason to doubt.

WWII vintage( no bayonet lug, flip sight, push button safety) carbines will
Bring a premium but any decent carbine will fetch at least $500 to start.

jb

+100. I used to collect M1 Carbines from the late 60s to about 1992 when I sold them. What 2ndovc says is 100% correct.

Many companies made carbine parts, not all carbine manufacturers made ALL carbine parts. Additionally, if a given contractor ran low on certain parts, the War Production Board would have parts transferred from one manufacturer to another so that production was not compromised.

In fact, one carbine manufacturer, Irwin-Pedersen of Grand Rapids, never delivered an acceptable carbine to the Gov't. They were taken over by Saginaw Steering Gear and the receivers marked S'G' (S-prime, G-prime). Yet, carbines with I-P marked receivers are on the market, commanding prices from $2500 to $4000.

Additionally, virtually every M1 Carbine and Garand was rebuilt following WWII and again after Korea. FN Herstal rebuilt over 2,800,000 USGI rifles and carbines in 1946-1948 alone. After WWII, repaired and rebuilt Carbines received adjustable rear sights, rotary safeties, upgraded mag catches, replacement stocks and handguards, and bayonet lugs.

It would be entirely likely that your Saginaw came from the factory with a Winchester stock. It also would be likely that a Saginaw stock was replaced by a Winchester stock at some point, but I would expect the replacement to be marked up if the weapon was carried at all.

IMO as an experienced carbine collector, I would much rather have an I-cut (early production) high wood Winchester stock on my Saginaw than a Saginaw stock that may not be exactly time period correct.

IMO and experience, as 2ndovc mentioned, any Carbine that is 100% "correct" with all matching mfr parts is likely been assembled by a dealer or collector from NOS USGI surplus parts. When the "Blue Sky" import carbines hit the US market in the mid/late 80s, a regular cottage industry set up replacing the "Blue Sky" stamped barrels and other parts, and reparkerizing the guns and installing "correct" stocks." $350 imports became $850 "originals" in the space of a month or two. This fixation on "originality" that has little basis in fact at the time of original manufacture is the single biggest factor in deciding to liquidate my Carbine collection in 1992. I sold all 32 of them for about $22,000 total. I've since used that $$$ to fund my other firearm interests, and there hasn't been ONE day in the past 16 years that I've regretted getting out of the US martial arms collecting cesspool.

One carbine I examined came with a letter dated 1946. Looking through the folded, creased, and stained document, the watermark said "Hammermill Lasercopy." In 1946? O-tay.

As to the value of your Saginaw, it's hard to appraise over the internet sight unseen, but from what you describe I'd be looking around $850-$950 retail. Of course, if you go to sell it to a dealer or knowledgeable collector, don't be surprised if they start talking smack on it for not be "matching." That's total pferdscheisse, IMO, and pardon my Hochdeutsch.

Noah

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue May 20, 2008 8:55 am

Thanks for the back up Noah! I'm so used to getting blasted on here when I respond to info about military arms.

I too had a pretty extensive US and foreign military collection that I've thinned down to just a few. One of my favorites is an early Winchester M1 carbine. I've gotten back to my real passion that is lever actions and six shooters

My freind had a carbine collection that sounds similar to yours and he tought me quite a bit about them before he passed away.

jb

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Tue May 20, 2008 11:44 am

Noah,
You sure that is Hochdeutsh?
sounds more like Swabish to me.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Tue May 20, 2008 11:50 am

Wow..Thanks for all the help guys..I haven't seen it yet but nephew says there is a small crack in the wood next to the recoil plate...This carbine has definitely been used...The WWII vet that sold it was in the Coast Guard.. He was ferrying Marines ashore here in the states...He said he'd got it from a Marine that got caught trying to sneak it a shore ..The Marine was supposed to deep six it..But rather than that he gave it to the CG guy...CG guy some time later successfully got it ashore.. ..That's story nephew gave me..
Edit: I need to clarify the acceptance marks on the stock..They are correct for a carbine produced by Winchester..That is there are no Saginaw markings on the stock..just Winchester markings.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:30 pm

I bought mine, actually two of 'em, back in '84 at a rummage sale for $40 for the both. One is an Underwood, 5-43 on the barrel w/flaming cannonball, this one I still have. The other was a Winchester that I traded in '92 for my '94 Trapper....thought then, and still do, I got the better deal! Some one once told me they are Israeli bring backs, don't know if that is true or not. Hate shooting the things, they suck up way too many bullets!

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:41 pm

Some did come back from Isreal. Alot of the large shipments ( along with M1s) in the mid 90's came back from Korea. More recently there was a small batch that returned from Holland. These have some pretty neat proof marks.

Ben,

That crack by the recoil plate is fairly common and not usually a big deal. New/ used stocks are still around. Many of these are Korean re-imports that have heavy varnish and sometimes Korean writing painted on. I've stripped many of these for my collector friend and found some good wood and markings under all that varnish. Seems to have preserved some of them quite nicely.

I really enjoy shooting mine. I've had several but one of the reasons I kept this last Winchester, other than the condition, it's a great shooter.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Tue May 20, 2008 4:13 pm

Yep I love the M1 carbine...I've got one that started out as an IBM that has been refurbed a few times..The guy I bought it from put it together to be a nice looking shooter & not for collecting.. I knew nothing about carbines at the time so I just wanted the cheapest decent looking shooter grade 1945 configuration... With Win White box I was getting 5 shot 100yd groups running 2.5"-3"( one 1 3/4" group ) With Wolf and my current vision limitations I'm getting 3-4"..But that's only after removing the polymer coating Wolf puts on..PITA but it holds zero because the coating is not building up in the chamber..

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Tue May 20, 2008 5:25 pm

mescalero1 wrote:Noah,
You sure that is Hochdeutsh?
sounds more like Swabish to me.

Sicher!

Noah

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:05 am

I thought so!