New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
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New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
So I picked this guy up last night along with some hodgepodge mixture of reloading components that looks like someone was confused and did not do much research. This is a new model and caliber to me so I am starting to sort it out.
What I know so far is it’s a 3rd variant with 8500 SN range 28” bbl double set triggers. Caliber is 40, some may say 40-60 or 40-60M or 40-65 but for modern namesake it’s a 40-65 Winchester and is loaded as such.
It came with a couple bags of caseing’s one bag of Jamison’s 45-60 , yes 45-60 and another bag of PMC 40-65. Also a set of new RCBS 40-60 dies. The sizer die is marked 40-60 and the expander die is 40-65. I’ll assume RCBS just uses that expander because it can be used for either and saves them money. But the die set is useless to me as I don’t have a 40-60 Winchester.
The rifle has next to no finish left on it but is pretty honest with the only replacement seen is the rear sight. The bore is excellent even and clean and slugs .409 - .410 . Will it accept a .410 to .411 bullet , I’m doubtful it will. I assume I’ll end up over at Accurate Molds for a proper bullet unless someone knows of a good source for soft cast with soft lube ..410 .411 240gr to 280gr
What I know so far is it’s a 3rd variant with 8500 SN range 28” bbl double set triggers. Caliber is 40, some may say 40-60 or 40-60M or 40-65 but for modern namesake it’s a 40-65 Winchester and is loaded as such.
It came with a couple bags of caseing’s one bag of Jamison’s 45-60 , yes 45-60 and another bag of PMC 40-65. Also a set of new RCBS 40-60 dies. The sizer die is marked 40-60 and the expander die is 40-65. I’ll assume RCBS just uses that expander because it can be used for either and saves them money. But the die set is useless to me as I don’t have a 40-60 Winchester.
The rifle has next to no finish left on it but is pretty honest with the only replacement seen is the rear sight. The bore is excellent even and clean and slugs .409 - .410 . Will it accept a .410 to .411 bullet , I’m doubtful it will. I assume I’ll end up over at Accurate Molds for a proper bullet unless someone knows of a good source for soft cast with soft lube ..410 .411 240gr to 280gr
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- marlinman93
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
The caliber is .40-60 Marlin, but .40-65 cases are what I've always used. I have some original .40-60M brass and it's very similar, but not exactly the same. The biggest difference is the primer pockets. Marlin .40-60 cases have small primers, not large. But either work fine. If you haven't slugged the bore, you should. Marlins in .40-60M usually run smaller than the Win. .40-65, and most of mine ran in the .412"-.413" range.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
Thanks. Bore details are in OP last paragraph I’m getting.410. Do you think it will chamber a 410-411 bullet?
- Sixgun
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
Marvin,
As you know, sizing bullets for the old guns can be and is almost always tricky as in most don't like the bullets that the groove diameter calls for.
My 1881, also in 40-60 is an early one with a #3 30" barrel, which is within thousandths of the Winchester #3 barrel used on their Hi Wall 1885's. Mine has a nice bore and to which I've won or did respectable in fair amount of matches with it up to 500 meters. I've logged well over 2K out of this rifle....and as I like to say about certain Leverguns I have.."shoots like a scoped bolt action gun".
I use 22 grains of 5744 and a 270 grain gas check bullet cast from an NEI mould and size them .408 which the groove diameter is.
The chamber does not like a .408 bullet and just barely chambers. I run a loaded case back into the full length sizer just a tad until it will chamber.
I use 40-65 Winchester dies and 45-70 Remington brass. Starline brass is thicker and takes more work. Run the 45-70 into the 40-65 die one time...slowly in, keep the brass in the shellholder, twist around and size it again............I'll also take off .002 (.001 each side) using a custom made Forster inside neck reamer....after using a neck expander.----6
A 36" MVA scope in dovetail mounts
As you know, sizing bullets for the old guns can be and is almost always tricky as in most don't like the bullets that the groove diameter calls for.
My 1881, also in 40-60 is an early one with a #3 30" barrel, which is within thousandths of the Winchester #3 barrel used on their Hi Wall 1885's. Mine has a nice bore and to which I've won or did respectable in fair amount of matches with it up to 500 meters. I've logged well over 2K out of this rifle....and as I like to say about certain Leverguns I have.."shoots like a scoped bolt action gun".
I use 22 grains of 5744 and a 270 grain gas check bullet cast from an NEI mould and size them .408 which the groove diameter is.
The chamber does not like a .408 bullet and just barely chambers. I run a loaded case back into the full length sizer just a tad until it will chamber.
I use 40-65 Winchester dies and 45-70 Remington brass. Starline brass is thicker and takes more work. Run the 45-70 into the 40-65 die one time...slowly in, keep the brass in the shellholder, twist around and size it again............I'll also take off .002 (.001 each side) using a custom made Forster inside neck reamer....after using a neck expander.----6
A 36" MVA scope in dovetail mounts
Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
Thanks Six. Think I’ll order a set of the RCBS cowboy dies as they seem to be the best deal at the moment. This way I can size a case to go in the chamber as nothing I have fits at the moment. Then to the lathe and make some dummy wadcutter bullets of likely sizes and go with the fattest one that fits and then order a mold from accurate molds.
- Sixgun
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
Your welcome Marvin........not having and knowing how to use a lathe has always been a detriment to me.....it's always a phone call to Forster or make do with a drill press and other tools.
Another thing you may be able to do is what I do with multiple 38-55's, which also almost always seem to have the same issue of chambering........original rifles mind you....90% of my rifles are made before the war ...1918,that war.
By a trial and error you can trim the case down to shorter than original and just seat the bullet normal OAL as hard chambering always comes at that "last 1/4" of pulling the lever tight against the lower tang......hence, no brass at that critical point, no expansion.
I've used 30-30 brass for 38-55's for over 40 years and that's not with one or two rifles..........dozens I've loaded for.----6
Another thing you may be able to do is what I do with multiple 38-55's, which also almost always seem to have the same issue of chambering........original rifles mind you....90% of my rifles are made before the war ...1918,that war.
By a trial and error you can trim the case down to shorter than original and just seat the bullet normal OAL as hard chambering always comes at that "last 1/4" of pulling the lever tight against the lower tang......hence, no brass at that critical point, no expansion.
I've used 30-30 brass for 38-55's for over 40 years and that's not with one or two rifles..........dozens I've loaded for.----6
Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
I hear ya Six. I shoot .383 dia out of my antique 38-55’s
- Sixgun
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
383's ! Wow! How do you manage that?!
On another note.......I see you know the old guns so do you remember or have knowledge of on what "breech loading" is? Most of the guys at our monthly CBA cast bullet matches use 44 1/2 Stevens actions and breech seat their ammo.......I don't because I don't have the patience.....I just want to shoot........probably why I always come in last place....I'll just use a levergun with a $2 scope just to have fun.
Anyway, as you know, with breech seating you can make any bullet diameter work so if an individual wants to see how accurate his rifle is but can't use fixed ammunition that's always a choice.
Been playing with a Low Wall in 32-20 with a part rd./oct barrel. I installed a MVA 36" er on that one too......as Jed Clampett would say, "can shoot flies" off the wall.---6
On another note.......I see you know the old guns so do you remember or have knowledge of on what "breech loading" is? Most of the guys at our monthly CBA cast bullet matches use 44 1/2 Stevens actions and breech seat their ammo.......I don't because I don't have the patience.....I just want to shoot........probably why I always come in last place....I'll just use a levergun with a $2 scope just to have fun.
Anyway, as you know, with breech seating you can make any bullet diameter work so if an individual wants to see how accurate his rifle is but can't use fixed ammunition that's always a choice.
Been playing with a Low Wall in 32-20 with a part rd./oct barrel. I installed a MVA 36" er on that one too......as Jed Clampett would say, "can shoot flies" off the wall.---6
Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
I’ve been using using starline 38-55 which is a little thinner in the neck and made a .383 H&I type sizer. They just barely fit with enough room to release in my antique 1894 take down rifle.
I know about breech seating and have some tapered bullets for my 1885 32-40 but like you I haven’t really tried it.
I know about breech seating and have some tapered bullets for my 1885 32-40 but like you I haven’t really tried it.
- marlinman93
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
I've had probably a dozen 1881 Marlins in .40-60M and still have three of them. I've had no issue chambering bullets loaded in the .411" or even .412" size. But you need to be careful with the crimp or they will give trouble. Those RCBS Cowboy dies will give the case a nice crimp that will help ensure no issues that can restrict chambering easily.
I've also found my Marlins and other .39-55 Ballard rifles to have larger groove diameters around .381"-.382" diameter, and had to do as Sixgun mentioned on some larger bullets and bump them in the sizing die after seating bullets. I've turned case necks too in an attempt to have no problems, but had other issues of case mouth dings when they get too thin.
I've also found my Marlins and other .39-55 Ballard rifles to have larger groove diameters around .381"-.382" diameter, and had to do as Sixgun mentioned on some larger bullets and bump them in the sizing die after seating bullets. I've turned case necks too in an attempt to have no problems, but had other issues of case mouth dings when they get too thin.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
The RCBS dies were in stock and ordered today from Midway so should have them soon. Then we may have to jaw about bullets that are suitable. Will be wanting something with a crimp groove.
- marlinman93
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
I cast my own, so don't buy bullets usually. I have a RCBS .40 CSA 300 gr. that is a bullet that shoots excellent in my single shot .40 caliber Marlin Ballard rifles, and my Remingtons in various .40 calibers. It works well in my 1881's so never bought a lighter weight bullet mold. I think a 260 gr. is a good choice for the 1881's slower 1:20" twist barrel.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
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- Sixgun
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
Marlinman is right about the crimp...it gave me trouble.......you can have a custom 40-65 Lee Factory Crimp Die made or any cartridge that's not standard and I have a few but the easiest solution .....and what I did for the 40-82 and 40-65 ..........is to buy a common 38-40 LFCD (you probably already have that) measure the difference in thousandths between the 38-40 and your 40-60/40-65 case........ Then get a heavy (K or L, not M) 1/2" I.D. copper pipe and cut it to that difference.
Screw in your 38-40 LFCD just a few turns, slip the copper pipe over the loaded 40-60 and crimp away after a bit of trial and error.........in addition to giving it a good hard crimp that does not interfere with chambering you can crimp it anywhere on the bullet. Crimp grooves are for novices. ---6
Screw in your 38-40 LFCD just a few turns, slip the copper pipe over the loaded 40-60 and crimp away after a bit of trial and error.........in addition to giving it a good hard crimp that does not interfere with chambering you can crimp it anywhere on the bullet. Crimp grooves are for novices. ---6
Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
Good info guys. Yes I already have a 38-40 Lee FC die.I assume the crimp problems you guys are talking about is from a roll crimp that pooches the case mouth out and interferes with chambering . I have used a collet closer setup in my lathe that gives a very nice crimp.
- fordwannabe
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
Hey Gunny, that old guy we talk to on here is impressing me again. Why is it that he can’t remember to wear pants all the time but ask him about crimping obsolete cartridges and all the sudden it involves tubing cutters and pipes. That he remembers, pants not so much. Ok ok I gotta admit I am purty impressed Jack. Yet again I learned something new listening to you.
a Pennsylvanian who has been accused of clinging to my religion and my guns......Good assessment skills.
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
Some good info all around for my 40-75-260 Bullard which is a 413. bore 40/65 Winchester.
"Any man who covers his face and packs a gun is a legitimate target for any decent citizen"
Jeff Cooper
Jeff Cooper
Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
I don't have any advise but nice looking rifle you have there.
- Sixgun
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
You ain't seen nothing yet young man.......wait till you see how I can make 500 horsepower Mustangs disappear from Womelsdorf, Pa. to a barn in Thornton, Pa.......and have instant legal registration.......in my name. ----6fordwannabe wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 6:15 pm Hey Gunny, that old guy we talk to on here is impressing me again. Why is it that he can’t remember to wear pants all the time but ask him about crimping obsolete cartridges and all the sudden it involves tubing cutters and pipes. That he remembers, pants not so much. Ok ok I gotta admit I am purty impressed Jack. Yet again I learned something new listening to you.
Pants?....who needs pants?.......Marvin ....I realize this is off of subject but that guy above me made a remark about me not wearing pants......after he said that I looked and dang if I wasn't wearing any pants......long John's and shorts down in my gunroom.......no wonder my wife laughs at me all the time.....believe they call that "eccentric"...
Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
As long as the cat ain’t wearing pants were good
Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
Got my dies in today and sized some casings. Decided to re slug the bore using a .440 round ball and driving it clean through the bore, .4085 is my final answer. Used a Starrett split ball gauge and hemostats to measure neck area of chamber at .426. PMC case necks measure.0105. Made a brass dummy slug at .409 and seated it with no crimp or burr at case mouth and that measures at about .429 and will not chamber. Turned brass slug to .406 and seated in resized case for for a .425ish neck dia. So a .406 bullet is is pushing the size limits on this rifle.
So this sounds pretty similar to to Sixguns rifle. So it’s just shoot black powder in it or ream/turn case necks or try the collet crimp swageing thing or ream chamber neck area
So this sounds pretty similar to to Sixguns rifle. So it’s just shoot black powder in it or ream/turn case necks or try the collet crimp swageing thing or ream chamber neck area
- marlinman93
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
Please don't ream the chamber on your 1881 Marlin to make it fit larger bullets. Have you got a case neck reamer you can thin the necks down to make larger bullets fit? I've done this on some 1881's with tight chambers, or large groove diameter, and they chamber just fine afterwards.
This is my 1881 in half octagon 24" barrel in .40-60M. One of only 200 known with half octagon 24" barrels. And one of one known to have the 24" half octagon, half mag, and factory Farrow Swiss buttplate.
And another 1881 E. Flues Rifle in .40-60M in a deluxe pistol grip, with the same Farrow Swiss buttplate. With it's factory 1881 loading tool, and powder measure.
This is my 1881 in half octagon 24" barrel in .40-60M. One of only 200 known with half octagon 24" barrels. And one of one known to have the 24" half octagon, half mag, and factory Farrow Swiss buttplate.
And another 1881 E. Flues Rifle in .40-60M in a deluxe pistol grip, with the same Farrow Swiss buttplate. With it's factory 1881 loading tool, and powder measure.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
I reamed the inside of the case necks today with a .406 reamer. Probably the reason the bore is so good because no one could find ammunition to fit it I would think if you’re getting .411 bullets to fit with no issues then it was likely reamed out at some time in its 100 plus years.
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- marlinman93
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
No signs of it, and I doubt all of the .40-60M 1881's I've owned were reworked. I do as sixgun mentioned and bump some in the sizing die after seating a bullet if they wont drop easily into the chamber. But some simply needed a slight ream to the case neck, and a proper crimp and dropped in without an issue.Marvin S wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2020 9:00 pm I reamed the inside of the case necks today with a .406 reamer. Probably the reason the bore is so good because no one could find ammunition to fit it I would think if you’re getting .411 bullets to fit with no issues then it was likely reamed out at some time in its 100 plus years.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
Thats a beauty Marlinman!
I had this factory 24" full octagon 45-70 for over 20 years. I always liked the 1881.
I had this factory 24" full octagon 45-70 for over 20 years. I always liked the 1881.
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"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
- marlinman93
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Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
Any 1881 with a factory lettered 24" barrel is pretty rare. But a 24" half octagon is a super rare barrel!
My first 1881 was a .45-70 that I traded into when selling my original Remington 1875 pistol in .44-40. Got the 1881 and a pocket full of cash, and it was a beauty. Kinda wish I'd kept it, but it went away long ago to feed my Ballard fever.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
Yeah. I did know the 24" barrels were rare. I didn't even know they made em in half octagon. That is super cool!marlinman93 wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 12:09 pmAny 1881 with a factory lettered 24" barrel is pretty rare. But a 24" half octagon is a super rare barrel!
My first 1881 was a .45-70 that I traded into when selling my original Remington 1875 pistol in .44-40. Got the 1881 and a pocket full of cash, and it was a beauty. Kinda wish I'd kept it, but it went away long ago to feed my Ballard fever.
Should have kept mine too.
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
Re: New to me 1881 Marlin 40cal
Thinking I may have it wipped. Made a new doughnut to keep the neck at .423 OD and re reamed cases to get a .008 thick neck wall thickness. Here is a loaded dummy with a .409 dia slug case trimmed 2.090 long only sign of interference is right above the case web as seen in picture that’s how tight this chamber is. Case was sized twice with shell holder just bumping die. Gonna order 50 .408 bullets from BACO and if it shoots good then a mold from Accurate molds.
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