OT - Win Mdl 70 'smithing question

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed May 14, 2008 3:04 pm

Given that the .358 Win has a max pressure of 52,000 and the .325 WSM has a SAAMI max pressure of 65,000, and you have a barrel/chamber that can conceiveably withstand significantly more, how long will it be before you start eating bolt if you cut the WSM down to 1.625, stuff a 225gr spitzer in it and try to push 2700fps?

(No I am NOT going to do this, but apparantly there are some people here in IN that are... and are selling them.)

It seems to me that to make a cartridge do in 1.625" what it would normally do in 2.08" is going to push the pressures through the roof... or am I missing somthing here?

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Wed May 14, 2008 5:34 pm

Probably too many variables to accurately predict. Some wildcat cartridges push ridiculous pressures, and it tends to be fine. If you read Ackleys' books where he did the blowup tests on the 30-30 junker, it becomes pretty obvious that chamber pressure doesn't equate to bolt thrust if the cartridge is well designed, and the chamber is clean and dry. I would tend to worry more about the chamber wall than the bolt thrust on cartridges similar to the WSM's just because they are minimum body taper and sharp shouldered. But then you already stated that you believe the barrel makeup is sufficient to hold the loads. If there are no signs of serious brass flow, stretch, or rifle function at those velocities I would worry less, but I would think the significant area of stress would be in the chamber at the shoulder (where barrel taper begins). Also consider that the WSM's are typically "fat" cartridges to begin with which takes meat out of the chamber walls on the standard sporter barrel.

Ed

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed May 14, 2008 5:42 pm

I'm only guessing on the barrel(s). I would HOPE that the custom barrel shops took all that into consideration, but I dunno.

The guy(s) that are pushing these wildcats as "400yd Indiana Legal Deer Cartridges" haven't even pressure tested them.

I'm thinking somebody's gonna get hurt.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Wed May 14, 2008 6:02 pm

O.I. , I've been wondering if there is anyone out there trying to push the limits of Indiana's pistol caliber rifle regs. Sounds interesting, but I'm not qualified to do such experimentation. I 'll just stick to my silly little .357. Any other info on line about this?

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed May 14, 2008 6:10 pm

Old Ironsights wrote: The guy(s) that are pushing these wildcats as "400yd Indiana Legal Deer Cartridges" haven't even pressure tested them.
I'm thinking somebody's gonna get hurt.

2007-2008 Indiana DNR Guide:
"Handguns, other than muzzleloading,
must have a barrel at least four inches long
and must fire a bullet of .243-inch diameter
or larger. The handgun cartridge case,
without the bullet, must be at least 1.16
inches long."

With that goal in mind, I'd just get an Encore pistol, with a 15" EABCO 1" bull barrel with a JP muzzle brake, and shoot stock 338 Winchester Magnums,

. . . or 416 Rigby

out of a barrel and action already manufactured that way.

Trajectory, even from a 15" barrel, would likely be as good or better than the .358. (Actually, even with the JP, the muzzle blast should take care of any deer within the first 75 yards...

) It is sort of evading the real intent of the hunting/safety laws, but at least the gun isn't as likely to blow up.

If you just have to have flat trajectory, raw power, and really good hearing protectors, that is...

I'm not sure how many of the folks out buying these wildcats are individuals I'd care to be within a mile of when they are attempting their 350-yard deer kill. Really, now, in Indiana, is it THAT hard to get within 150 yards of a deer...? Hopefully, they are all experienced open-range mountain hunters who understand the concept of "safe backstop" but if they are so impatient they can't wait for the 150-yard deer, how likely is that?

runfiverun · Post by **runfiverun** » Wed May 14, 2008 6:18 pm

i was hoping someone would do some supermag levers, 445,375 etc..
but would it not be easier to just shorten the 358? similar to the 308x1.5?
i guess a 1.6" weatherby 264 mag belted would be new.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed May 14, 2008 7:59 pm

runfiverun wrote:i was hoping someone would do some supermag levers, 445,375 etc..
but would it not be easier to just shorten the 358? similar to the 308x1.5?
i guess a 1.6" weatherby 264 mag belted would be new.

I really wish Marlin and Rossi would scale up their short actions just enough to take fatter, higher-pressure rounds with a reasonable safety margin.

Wouldn't a 500 S&W levergun be sweet...? - or a 460 S&W even.

Or - just think what a 0.2" thicker receiver on a 336 Marlin could handle!

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Thu May 15, 2008 9:26 am

This is getting further off topic, but I've notice a lot of used handi-rifles in 500 S&W are coming up for sale here in Indiana, I don't know if there is a problem there. Also, I believe the 460 S&W case is too long for Indiana, but I think it looks like a much more interesting round than the 500. Of course all of this talk is kind of silly considering what you can shoot out of handgun in Indiana for deer hunting, as was pointed out.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu May 15, 2008 9:36 am

The .460 is too long and there is no practical advantage in a .500 Handirifle over a 12ga or 20ga Handi. In fact, the ammo is more expensive so there is a net LOSS in usefulness.

This was the folly of using case dimensions instead of Maximum Point Blan Range or allowing everything so long as it doesn't use a Spitzer with a BC of .300 or more.

Ah well. Why would the State listen to people who know how to use an External Ballistics calculator?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu May 15, 2008 9:41 am

runfiverun wrote:i was hoping someone would do some supermag levers, 445,375 etc..
but would it not be easier to just shorten the 358? similar to the 308x1.5?
i guess a 1.6" weatherby 264 mag belted would be new.

Same issues. Reduced case capacityand higher pressures. The .358 Grant/WSSM has the same Volume case capacity as the full length .358W - it's just packing it into a space that doesn't allow for longitudinal propagation, so, in my experience with explosives, would have a dispraportionally higher pressure curve.

As for the other ideas you mentioned - the regs don't allow for a deer caliber to be less than .357 unless it's out of a TC/other hand cannon firing a rifle cartridge.

A weird rule all the way around, but ther it is.