OT: Sunday Smoke with 135-year old Sixgun (photos)

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:32 pm

Well men, I've been wondering what the original load of 23 grains of black powder would do out my original 135-year old S&W 2nd Model American chambered in 44 Russian. Mike Venturino only put 19 grains of FFFg in his for velocity of 740 fps. I have a very non-traditional soft cast Elmer Keith bullet that weights 256 grains lubed and sized. For my first five rounds, I only put 16 grains of FFFg and fired them over the chronograph. Average velocity was 626 fps with an E.S. of 33 fps and an S.D. of 15 fps. That seemed to me to be a capacity load in my spanking new, never-before-fired Starline brass, but there was no compression of the powder. I headed back in the house and figured I'd see if I could get 18 grains into those once-fired cases. No problem. That load gave me 685 fps with an E.S. of 15 fps and an S.D. of 6 fps.

Now I got to wondering just how much powder I could squeeze into a spanking new case if I tried compressing it a bit and let the bullet set out. I loaded one round with 20 grains. No problem; lots of room to still set the bullet out. This one gave 692 fps; still mystified about that. Then I loaded 21 grains into a new case. This one round gave me 753 fps. I still had room to set the bullet out a bit more, so I loaded 22 grains of FFFg into three never-fired Starline cases. The bullets were sitting out a bit by now, as you can see in the photo below ...(the one on the left has 22 grains of powder and the one on the right has 18 grains) ...

I fired the three cartridges loaded with 22 grains, just one grain short of the original 23 grains, and chronographed the three bullets at 772 fps, 776 fps, and 791 fps, for an average of 780 fps. I would guess that 23 grains should put me right around 800 fps. Keep in mind, today's shooting was done out of an 8" barrel.

Loading up the old sixgun (my coat doesn't have wings, it was just windy) ....

Making smoke .....

The old sixgun after 15 rounds .... a bit covered in residue. It letters as having been shipped in 1873 ....

The backstop. Although I wasn't really aiming at anything on the block of wood, I was just aiming to shoot between the wires on the chronograph, 10 rounds went into about an inch and a half, with the other 5 rounds close. The wood was about 17 feet away. I find this old S&W, with its 8" barrel, remarkably easy to shoot accurately (at least for an old geezer like myself who is no great shakes with a sixgun).

Cleaning the old S&W afterwards ...

Conclusion: If I can stuff 22 grains of FFFg in spanking new Starline cases, I figure I should be able to put the full 23 grains into the slightly expanded fired cases if I don't do any sizing, which isn't necessary anyway, because the bullets are still a tight fit. I ran out of time to experiment further today, but I will be trying for 23 grains next time.

Post by **Hobie** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:41 pm

I love your complete reports. Well done!

1886 · Post by **1886** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:59 pm

Very nice. Thanks for sharing the old girl with us. Regards. 1886.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:14 pm

Well documented and photographed. I appreciate the effort of your post. Very interesting data. thanks again.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:46 pm

Looks like you had a great time there Kirk..I sure wish I could do load development like that here at home...Thanks for the post

dr walker · Post by **dr walker** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:41 pm

That gun is a treasure. Great post, always love the photos.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:42 pm

Thanks Kirk,

She seems to be doing you a good job. It's also nice to see someone else who still has an old green Hoppe's box to keep their gun cleaning stuff in. Kind of like home.

It would seem that by your picture the round with the 22 grains took quite a bit of pressure do to the rounding of the forward edge of the bullet nose.

I wonder just how much extra space you could have if you had some of the old balloon head cases. That and you didn't say id you were using a drop tube or not.

I bet if you held the old girl up to your ear you could hear her going hmmmmmmm, thank you.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:42 pm

another grrrrrreat post....

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:04 pm

Rusty wrote: It would seem that by your picture the round with the 22 grains took quite a bit of pressure do to the rounding of the forward edge of the bullet nose.

I wonder just how much extra space you could have if you had some of the old balloon head cases. That and you didn't say id you were using a drop tube or not.

Rusty, you are right about the seating pressure rounding off the edge of the meplat, although the bullet is almost pure lead and very soft. I do not have a drop tube yet, but plan to make one. Today what I did was to slowly dribble the powder into a funnel and let it swirl down into the hole, taking about a full minute to complete the charge. That seemed to work well, then I would tap it lightly on the table. Don't know if that did anything. I want to load up about 50 rounds and do some more tests. I may settle on 22 grains, rather than try to get 23 grains in a slightly expanded case, with the rim barely hanging on to the upper edge of the lube groove. In Canada, the only sixgun I can pack into the wilderness are antique ones made before 1898 and in obsolete calibers. If a Cougar jumps one of my children during a portage, or we have an unexpected bear problem and my rifle is not handy, this would be all I have to provide immediate security to my family. For that reason, I like to use the Keith bullet, and keep the velocity up close to 800 fps.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:07 pm

Kirk,
Great report. Love the look of the filthy gun, hate the work cleaning them though.
What is that black piece with the hole in it just above the barrel in the last picture?

Joe

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:14 pm

J Miller wrote: What is that black piece with the hole in it just above the barrel in the last picture?

Joe, that piece keeps the cylinder from backing out. It slides into slots in the underside of the top strap. To remove, there is a screw in the top strap that you take out, then that piece slides out. You take out another screw under the barrel and then slide the entire cylinder assembly out. This was 1870 technology. By the end of the 1870's, their New Model #3 came out. To remove the cylinder in that one, you simply lift the latch and pull the cylinder slightly while you screw it out. Very fast and convenient, but for this older model, a fellow needed a screwdriver for the two screws.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:23 pm

Thank's Kirk, sure glad to see that you are getting a good reliable and poweful load to carry on you canoe trips. By the way are those really tiny little green leaves on that tree behind you? It looks like that grass is greening up too, the groundhogs will be in your alfalfa fields soon.

Jaguarundi · Post by **Jaguarundi** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:47 pm

Excellent post KirkD

!

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:18 am

Kirk,
Very interesting post and excellent photo's, as always.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:01 am

Kirk -

Awesome post - very thorough, as always, and with great photos!

I was thinking about you and your fellow Canadian levergunners/shooting enthusiasts last Thursday evening. Was attending a work function with my wife (one of the few in years where spouses attended), and got into a conversation with a peer from Toronto. The conversation rolled into what we did for fun (they assumed since I live in SC I play golf). I told them I love to shoot. The wife of my peer was obviously shaken, and went on for 10 minutes to tell me how Canada "didn't have a gun culture", Canadians "didn't enjoy shooting", weren't as violent as the US, yada yada yada.

I let her go then, with you and others in mind, explained that the US's urban areas didn't have many firearms enthusiasts either, but like our suburban and rural areas, I knew for a fact that many suburban and rural Canadians loved to shoot, hunt, collect firearms, etc.

Tried my best to defend your honor - not that you need me to do so. Don't think it sunk in though...

Sorry to hi-jack your post!

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:58 am

Yep, the leaves are starting to peek out here!

Ysabel Kid, thanks for trying to educate that woman. People like that, I have a very hard time being patient with. I wonder if she thinks that people who enjoy golfing are part of the 'Golf Culture'. I like to wear clothes. Am I part of the 'Clothes Culture'. Maybe she should be informed that she's part of the 'Gun-Phobic Culture'. Okay. I'll stop now.

Jerry, the Groundhogs are out and I've already sent one off to the Great Alfalfa Field in the Sky with my Model 53 25-20.

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:43 am

Don't be afraid to compress that powder a bit before you seat the bullet.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:41 pm

ScottT wrote:Don't be afraid to compress that powder a bit before you seat the bullet.

Being a rank beginner, I tried doing that by hand-pressing a wooden dowling into the charged case. I didn't seem to be accomplishing much, so I figured I'd just compress the powder by gently and slowly pressing down on the lever when I seated the bullet. I can see by the bullet in the first photo that there is some deformation of the soft cast bullet (almost pure lead, but with a tiny bit of something that I forget what he put into it .... I'm still awaiting some casting stuff on backorder, but will be casting all my own from now on).

I'll have to figure out a way to compress the powder before seating the bullet. Especially once I start loading for my antique Springfield Trapdoor 45-70, where bullet deformation will be unacceptable for accuracy sake.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:46 pm

Kirk,
NEAT! As ScottT indicated, don't be afraid to compress the powder. In fact, that will make it shoot a bit cleaner and most likely, more accurately.

If you have the Lyman "M" expander die, you can pre compress the powder with it before seating the bullet.

Original .44-40 and .45 Colt b.p. cartridges that I dissected had .20" of b.p. compression.

In my experience, .44 Cal. balloon head cases will hold an average of 2 grs. more of b.p. than modern brass.

Have fuunnn!
w30wcf

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:48 pm

I'll have to look into one of those M expander dies. Does it work for the 45-70 also?

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:23 pm

Kirk,

With 300 and 350 gr. bullets, yes, unless they have changed the .45-70 expander since I bought mine 30 years ago. The standard 400+ gr. bullets set deeper in the case and the expander is not quite long enough for any compression unless they have changed the length of the expander in the last 30 years.

Regarding your .44 S&W, perhaps the expander you are using now will allow some compression without over belling the case mouth(?). Other wise you could take a .38-40 jacketed or hard cast bullet and use that to compress the powder.

One other thing. Swiss b.p. is 10% more dense than Goex (my lots have been) meaning that the powder height in the case with 23 grs. of Swiss will be the same as 21 grs. of Goex......or thereabouts.

w30wcf

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:50 pm

Well done KD, hansom feller in the photo. I don,t think you needed to get a model to pose in your place though

Hey, don't be lubing that fine piece with mineral oil now! Use animal or veg oils/fats or a bees wax mix. If you put plenty on it'll stand some shooting and not imediate cleaning like when you are on your walks. Use plenty au natural lube on the bullet too for the bores sake.
Nath.

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:01 pm

Kirk, if only that revolver could talk, what a story it'd have to tell! Thanx, jd45

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:54 pm

w30wcf, I've been using a universal Lee expander for my cases, so I'll have to get creative to compress my powder. I figure it is being compressed a little more than 1/16" in the 44 Russian case right now while seating the bullet. This is giving me a five shot E.S. of 19 fps or less, so the burning consistency seems to be decent. That Swiss powder does sound like it might be the way to go, if the local shooting supplies has it.

Nath, that unsavory looking feller in the photos is a Sasquatch I caught and made stand in for me. I figured that was safer than actually being in the photos myself, since I'd probably have to be beating off the women with a stick for months to come if I posted a photo of myself on the web.

For lube, I'm using black powder lube. I actually prefer black powder lube for all my cartridges, except the 30-30, which uses normal smokeless lube. It stays nice and soft and makes clean up real easy.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:16 pm

Kirk, darn fine post. I have a friend in Canada who is able to carry a modern 454 Ruger SBH using some sort of prospecting permit, so old guns may not be the only answer to packin' while your out in the woods. Your experiences with BP make me want to try it in my old Mauser.

-Tutt

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:48 pm

KirkD, your reports are always worth reading...thanks for taking the time to share.

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:05 pm

KirkD wrote:
ScottT wrote:Don't be afraid to compress that powder a bit before you seat the bullet.
Being a rank beginner, I tried doing that by hand-pressing a wooden dowling into the charged case. I didn't seem to be accomplishing much, so I figured I'd just compress the powder by gently and slowly pressing down on the lever when I seated the bullet. I can see by the bullet in the first photo that there is some deformation of the soft cast bullet (almost pure lead, but with a tiny bit of something that I forget what he put into it .... I'm still awaiting some casting stuff on backorder, but will be casting all my own from now on).

I'll have to figure out a way to compress the powder before seating the bullet. Especially once I start loading for my antique Springfield Trapdoor 45-70, where bullet deformation will be unacceptable for accuracy sake.

A compression die from Buffalo Arms is what you need. Deforming the bullet is a mistake, I know I have done it.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:44 am

Nice post Kirk, as always you do an exemplary job! From your data, do I detect a point of diminishing returns? Remember the performance pertaining to a load of BP is related to the volume of the both the chamber and length of barrel. That is why 55-60 grains of BP in a Trapdoor carbine is recommended compared to 70 grains in the rifle, same might hold true for the S & W.

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:38 am

Old Time Hunter wrote:Nice post Kirk, as always you do an exemplary job! From your data, do I detect a point of diminishing returns? Remember the performance pertaining to a load of BP is related to the volume of the both the chamber and length of barrel. That is why 55-60 grains of BP in a Trapdoor carbine is recommended compared to 70 grains in the rifle, same might hold true for the S & W.

The lower volume of black in the Trapdoor carbine was not due to ballistic performance, but due to recoil and a perception (probably true) that the average recruit was not doing well because of that recoil.

I have tried the 55gr load in a 26 inch barreled .45-70 and it tones down the recoil quite a bit. But it does not burn as clean in my rifle and it does not give the lowered SD values that a compressed load of 70 gr does. But Goex powder seems to do better with a little compression.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:15 am

Tutt Some fellows are able to get those prospector permits, but they come with strings attached, the guns have to be registered, and the permits are very difficult to get. The antique sixguns come with no strings attached and no registration, so I have a lot more freedom.

ScottT Thanks for that tip. I actually have them filling out an order for me as we speak. I'll order one for the 44 and for the 45-70 to be included in my order.

Old Time Hunter I'll have to shoot off a few more rounds at different loadings to compare. Right now, I'm not seeing any diminishing returns in moving from 18 grains to 21 grains to 22 grains. I do want to try at least 5 rounds with 23 grains. I will also be trying at least 30 rounds at 22 grains. Then I'll be able to figure out where to camp.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:17 am

Are those Spiderman's shoes?

Sorry, that's what they reminded me of. My son has a pair like that.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:25 am

Blackhawk wrote:

Are those Spiderman's shoes?

Sorry, that's what they reminded me of. My son has a pair like that.

Well, I was hoping no one would notice what I made the Sasquatch standing in for me, wear. Those are excellent shoes, though thoroughly non-traditional. They are trail runners by Merrel, made for people who like to do off-road running like I enjoy doing. The shoes give excellent grip in all weather, including snow and ice, and they are very light with the orange parts being mesh. They are my shoe of choice when wilderness canoeing and camping and dry quickly if I have to walk through water. The downside is that they are definitely not 'Old West' in appearance.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:30 am

Kirk,

I'm with ya! As I get older I tend to find a comfortable pair of tennis shoes hard to beat for walking, canoeing, etc in warm weather.

Johnny

samb · Post by **samb** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:32 pm

Ysabel Kid wrote:Kirk -

Awesome post - very thorough, as always, and with great photos!

I was thinking about you and your fellow Canadian levergunners/shooting enthusiasts last Thursday evening. Was attending a work function with my wife (one of the few in years where spouses attended), and got into a conversation with a peer from Toronto. The conversation rolled into what we did for fun (they assumed since I live in SC I play golf). I told them I love to shoot. The wife of my peer was obviously shaken, and went on for 10 minutes to tell me how Canada "didn't have a gun culture", Canadians "didn't enjoy shooting", weren't as violent as the US, yada yada yada.

I let her go then, with you and others in mind, explained that the US's urban areas didn't have many firearms enthusiasts either, but like our suburban and rural areas, I knew for a fact that many suburban and rural Canadians loved to shoot, hunt, collect firearms, etc.

Tried my best to defend your honor - not that you need me to do so. Don't think it sunk in though...

Sorry to hi-jack your post!

Great Report Kirk......Loved the pictures and the Data. I accidently purchased a Puma M92 clone on John Wayne's 100th birthday last year to compliment my Colt SAA clones in 45LC.

Here is a link and quote for our American brothers who want to Educate the Liberal Canadians visiting your states.......

There were a total of 1.9 million licensed gun owners in the Canada at year-end. The registered weapons in their possession added up to about 7.1 million, the vast majority classified as long guns - essentially rifles and shotguns. PS Canada only has 35 million people, which means 1 out of 17 own a gun.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/20 ... 11-cp.html

Don't wanna hijack the thread, and will be thinking of ya'll this weekend hawg hunting in Ga with my 50th Anniv. Ruger Super Black hawk 44 Mag.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:52 pm

samb wrote: Here is a link and quote for our American brothers who want to Educate the Liberal Canadians visiting your states.......

There were a total of 1.9 million licensed gun owners in the Canada at year-end. The registered weapons in their possession added up to about 7.1 million, the vast majority classified as long guns - essentially rifles and shotguns. PS Canada only has 35 million people, which means 1 out of 17 own a gun.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/20 ... 11-cp.html

Samb, the actual number of firearms in Canada is approximately double that, and estimated to be just over 14 million. Approximately half the firearms in Canada are not registered .... the result of non-compliance. The 14 million number comes from a tally of import/export records. Also, when you factor out children, roughly 1 out of every 8 adults own at least one firearm here in Canada.

Have fun hog-hunting this weekend!

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:57 pm

I've got an all purpose expander die - think it's Lee though and it bells the case slightly.

I also have a set of 45 Caliber bp compression dies - I don't remember the manuf. but I think I got it from Cabelas. I'd bet Buffalo Arms has em too though - they seem to carry everything else.

That is one fine old Smith - thanks for posting!

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:02 pm

I have merrils too for trail running, one of three pairs I use. Thanks again for your post.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:24 pm

Maybe someday.

I'll have the pleasure to own or shoot or have the knowledge of the old guns.

It's really nice having you on the forum.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:27 pm

Tycer wrote:Maybe someday.

I'll have the pleasure to own or shoot or have the knowledge of the old guns.

It's really nice having you on the forum.

Glad you enjoyed the post. I can tell you it is a lot of fun shooting black powder out of this old sixgun.

OT: Sunday Smoke with 135-year old Sixgun (photos)

OT: Sunday Smoke with 135-year old Sixgun (photos)

Compression dies