Plated - Berry superior to Xtreme (X-Treme)?

[JohndeFresno]

First - apologies to anybody here who works for (or owns?) the Xtreme business. But these are my findings so far.

With my Hornady progressive press, I had consistent failures with the Xtreme 147 grain plated 9mm bullets, while there was no problem with the more expensive Berry 147 grain plated product.

I researched several sites (Google searches) and found a general consensus that the more expensive Berry projectile is a bit thicker than the much more affordable Xtreme. One poster remarked that it is commonly known that the Berry is tight in certain handguns (was it CZ's?) and so they won't function in these. Does that mean thicker plating? Possibly. But for whatever reason, here are my findings. The price of these bullets is in my records from a recent shipment, but may vary with the amount that you purchase, shipping, etc.

Berry 147 gr. RN Plated #74030 (9mm Luger)
Cost to me $.1812 each
1) Set Lee Through the Die Expander to 1/2 turn flare - same as true FMJ bullets
2) Seater set for 1.150" COAL.
3) Lee FCD on light crimp - 1/2 turn, just enough to remove slight flare
4) Push test - bullet does not retreat into casing
5) Rounds function flawlessy at the range.
My handgun, by the way, is a S&W M&P Shield - essentially the same firearm as the Compact, except smaller with a single stack magazine.

X-Treme 147 gr. RN Plated 147 (9mm Luger)
Cost to me $.0896 each
Same settings as above. Each time, the bullet pushed into the case when it ran through the Lee Factory Crimp Die, dropping to 1.00" Cartridge Overall Length (COAL).
This happened every time.
Fix:
1) Set Lee Through the Die Expander to NO flare
2) Seater set for 1.150"
3) Lee FCD on very light crimp
4) Gentle Push test - bullet does not retreat into casing
5) Rounds not yet tested at the range

I am still working on the loads, but do not want to increase the crimp until I test these rounds at the range so that I don't have to pull them if they don't function. I have noticed that the X-Treme bullets started crimping at the base after several attempts, so I threw the first three test bullets in the trash.

The bottom line for me - Is it worth it to have to baby the flare for these bullets instead of using a tried and true setup for seating and crimping all other 9's? Maybe double the price is worth it. I'll see how the cheaper X-Treme loads hold up and then go from there. But it seems to me that for long-term storage of practice ammo, possible thumb pressure on the bullet while loading the magazine, possible jostling and whatnot, the pricier Berry loads inspire more confidence.

[OldWin]

Good info, thanks.

I have often wondered about the Extreme bullets. I shoot a lot of plated, but have only used Rainier, and with excellent results. I believe they are priced between Extreme and Berry's.
I load them in .45ACP, .38, and .357. I've been thinking about trying .45Colt and 9mm also.

[JohndeFresno]

UPDATE - I am updating the information here instead of editing the above, since several people have already read the first entry.

My X-Treme samples failed even a moderate push test - the bullets went into the case.

The FIX for X-Treme plated 9mm Luger 147 gr. bullets (therefore possibly others of the same brand):
1) Do not use the Lee FCD (Factory Crimp Die)
2) You must use the crimper on the seater die, since it only squeezes the top

So -
1) No flare after sizing: With my setup, I use the Lee Auto Disk powder measure on a Through the Die Expander die, but I screw the die out so that there is absolutely no flare.

2) Set the crimper on the seater die, since it only squeezes in the top.

3) Remove the Lee FCD (Factory Crimp Die) from the last station.

I think that this explains to me why several handloaders have posted that they have good results with this bullet. I suspect that they don't use a separate crimp die, just the crimper that comes with their seater die. By the very nature of the Lee FCD encompassing the whole cartridge, this smaller than X-Treme bullet apparently pops down into the case with the downward motion of the die working on the bullet.

Tentative Conclusion: I have to tailor adjustments for this bullet instead of being able to use preset flare and crimp stations. With other 9mm's, all I have to do is change the depth of bullet seating and regulate the powder. The purpose of the Hornady equipment is to be able to dash to my reloading station and crank out rounds without constant fiddling.

Tentative Decision: Use up my 500 X-Treme bullets and then load the already successful Berry's from now on for practice loads.

If I have missed something, maybe another handloader can let me know! I'll be paying double for the Berry rounds, but they load easily and work very well at the range.

OldWin, thank you for your post. I see more handload recipes from reliable sources on Rainier bullets than for most other plated bullets, which is a plus. Since they are less expensive than Berry rounds, I may switch to them after I run through this current stock, since I have already loaded up all of my Berry cartridges.

[Bob Hatfield]

The Xtreme 124/5? grain flat point in my Glock 17 will all shoot 10 shots into a standard 100 yard bullseye tafget placed at 50 yards right to the point of aim (6 oclock) in a nice round group from a rest. The bullseye is about 6 inches or so. At 25 yards groups under 3 inches is easy and they are nice round groups. This is with a near max load of Power Pistol. If I remember correctly it chronographed somewhere in the low 1100's. I do believe I loaded them to hornady XTP 124 grain length.

Bob

[JohndeFresno]

The Xtreme 124/5? grain flat point in my Glock 17 will all shoot 10 shots into a standard 100 yard bullseye...
Bob

Bob - here's the $64 question:
How did you load and crimp it?
- Specifically, how did you keep the bullet from falling inside your case? Did you use the crimper on the seater die?

[OldWin]

The Xtreme 124/5? grain flat point in my Glock 17 will all shoot 10 shots into a standard 100 yard bullseye...
Bob

Bob - here's the $64 question:
How did you load and crimp it?
- Specifically, how did you keep the bullet from falling inside your case? Did you use the crimper on the seater die?

No problem sir.

And, by the way, I load all my plated on a Dillon 550 with Dillon dies. I crimp my 230gr RN 45acp at .471.
I can't remember offhand with the 38/357 but what I did was adjust to where it looked good, then pulled the bullet with an inertia hammer and inspect the ring on the bullet. Just make sure it doesn't break the plating. Trimmed all my brass to be uniform and loaded away. They shoot like crazy in my 92 Rossi and 66 Smith. No bullet push or creep.

[milton]

John,just out of curiosity what is the diameter of your flaring tool and what is the diameter of each bullet type? I have had the same problem you are describing with another round and I found out that I had to continue flaring the case but I had to turn the flaring tool down in diameter to give me good bullet pull.Once I did that and applied a taper crimp I had good results.

[mikld]

Whenever I have a fit problem, in this case neck tension, I measure. First, I'd measure the diameter of the bullets...

[Griff]

The expander plug is larger than needed with those bullets. Drop the expander plug a .001" or .002" and you should have sufficient neck tension that then simply taking out the flare will eliminate the bullets from pushing back into the case.

[OldWin]

Sounds like the bullets are on the smallish side to me. If so, I would switch brands before taking any off my expander.
I don't have a tension problem with the Rainiers in regards to tension. They load like any jackeded bullet.
I don't have a measurement handy for how much flare I use but it isn't much. I am just careful that it doesn't shave the plating when seating. It is much softer than a regular bullet jacket.

[jnyork]

I have loaded thousands of rounds of various calibers with Berry's Plated Bullets, never a problem, never saw a reason to search any further.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Never a problem with X-treame bullets and I have loaded a bunch of them. It sounds like your expander plug is too large. Have you measured both brands to compare them?

[JohndeFresno]

With respect to several of the above posts immediately above:
I followed instructions to disable the expander entirely for the Lee Through the Die Expander, which accepts the powder measure, a Lee Autodisk Powder measure. The instructions for the Lee Expander:
"Touch Shellholder, back out 1 turn, finger tighten lockring, adjust flare."

So I touched the shellholder and then backed out the expander one full turn. That should have removed all the belling, only allowing the powder to be dispensed. I will double check to see that there is absolutely NO flare today and report back. I have had some home emergencies that got into the way of spending a full day on this project.

That is, for those who do not understand the concept of the Lee expander die and powder measure combination, I believe that now I have essentially a cylinder in one of my stations that has a powder measure on top. However, the powder measure is activated when a plunger contacts the rim (mouth) of the cartridge case; dumps the powder, and then the setup rotates to the next station (a Powder Cop die). I will return to my modest reloading center and verify the measurement of a casing before and after it works with the expander die.

Here is the thing, though:
I have NO problem with the Berry bullets - loaded 50 of them quickly and flawlessly. Googling various posts reveals that may handloaders, on various forums, state that the 9mm X-Treme plated bullets are smaller in diameter than the Berry offerings. For those who are happy with X-Treme bullets, good on you! Me, I'll figure out what the problem is, then use up my X-Tremes, then resupply with something else.

Back to my particular expander die - the next step is to verify that my powder dump actuator does not put so much force onto the case that it somehow expanded the case, anyway. That is why I was asking Bob Hatfield if he crimps his 9mm Luger X-treme bullets with the crimper that comes with his seating die, versus another method - like using a separate Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Those various users of X-treme bullets, who claim that the bullet works well, never state how they crimp the bullets. To me, that is critical information. I know that Berry's work extremely well - in my Lee Turret Press that I gave to a relative, in my RCBS Piggyback Progressive Press, and now in my Hornady Lock N Load press with the Lee Powder Measures as desscribed. But since I have a box of 500 X-Treme bullets, I'll do my best to load them - this one time.

It might be that my powder dump setup is the reason that I don't do well with X-Treme bullets. For me (personally), I'd rather switch bullet brands for the 9mm Luger than give up the speed and ease of setup that I enjoy with my hybrid Hornady / Lee progressive reloading system. I will report back, regardless.

As an aside, further research regarding this annoying little 9mm round is that I frequently find comments about the 9mm Luger being a very troublesome round to load - very demanding for sizing and expanding parameters for various bullet types.

[Chuck 100 yd]

The expander in your Lee powder trough expander die is just like the expander in any other die except the expander plug has a hole drilled through the center for the powder to drop through. It adjusts and functions the same as any other.
I taper crimp all semi auto rounds. This step mainly just removes the belling from the cases mouth and leaves a slight taper to the case in the area of the bullet. It does not increase the bullet tension by any large amount. The interfearence fit between bullet and case body does that before the crimp is applied.
I still think your expander is too large. You should not be able to move the seated bullet before or after taper crimping unless you use GREAT force. In that case,your Berry's bullets are not very tight either and may move from the action of cycling through a gun.

[JohndeFresno]

The expander plug is larger than needed with those bullets. Drop the expander plug a .001" or .002" and you should have sufficient neck tension that then simply taking out the flare will eliminate the bullets from pushing back into the case.

Thank you all - you were all correct -
Measure, drop the flare, neck tension should work - good comments.

Just measured cases in press. My caliper says:
After sizing in the press... .374"
After powder station...... .377" - !
This means that the expander, when set according to Lee's instructions, still worked on the case.
Bullet........................ .354"
(Per published specs,
Berry's are .356",
Rainiers are .355")

So... backing out the die per Lee's instructions, at least on the Hornady shell plate, does NOT remove the flare completely. One must set the Lee Expander quite a bit above the shellplate for truly no flare; more than one turn. A test, with measurement, is apparently required for your individual Lee Expander. I guess I'll never quit learning new things about the equipment I've been using for years!

Having said that, I now have the bullets loading to the correct COAL of 1.150", but only after:
1) Removing ALL flare, just using sized cases
2) Setting the Seater without crimp, a little long, about 1.158", I think (trial and error)
3) Finishing with Lee FCD die, which still moves the bullet a small amount to 1.150" when done. *
* Tendency to slip into case - Maybe due to its soft covering or slick material?

OK, now I can use up my 500 rounds, and then either buy Berry's again, or try out the Rainier. I have 7.62x39mm X-Treme bullets which will most likely work very well, since they are considerably longer. But no more X-Treme 9mm's for me.

For Lee die users - this miniature ordeal may save you some trouble. Don't trust the Powder Through Expander instructions completely - make sure that you measure the cases. Unscrewing it a full turn was not enough for mine!

[mikld]

Jes curious, you've done a lot with the expander, but have you measured the bullets yet? If a bullet is even an average of .001" smaller, tolerance can and do "stack" and you'll get loose bullets. Or you could just move yer dies in and out till something falls into line...

[JohndeFresno]

Jes curious, you've done a lot with the expander, but have you measured the bullets yet? If a bullet is even an average of .001" smaller, tolerance can and do "stack" and you'll get loose bullets. Or you could just move yer dies in and out till something falls into line...

Mikld -
You hit it right on the nose. I would have never guessed that a .001" change would wreak this much havoc. That is precisely the problem. Bullets are .354" and after loading are still .354" - now. I use a very light crimp.

During this experiment of three partial days I tried using the crimper on the seater die at various settings. I noticed the effects of crimping on the bullets. There was a line of demarcation. Those little fellers made it to the trash.

The current loaded rounds are OK. But after all of this, I'm not a fan of this brand for 9mm, as stated. Perhaps the whole story is that the diameter out of the box is too small (.354" instead of .355"). It almost calls for a pre-crimp die before the bullet is seated, it seems to me.

I read somewhere, possibly Wikipedia, that some bullet makers started making the projectile with a crimp line. I guess it was for a roll crimp. The article or post stated that this was to ensure consistent seating for the 9mm Luger bullet. I can see why.

[Griff]

You'll find that different brands of cases have different neck thicknesses, and will make production a nightmare if you are loading a mixed bag of cases. The expander does two basic functions... (it'll expand the inside of the case to a consistent size, and apply a varying amount of bell to the mouth depending on how deep you set the expander. With lead bullets, you generally want a little amount of bell so the edge of the case doesn't shave lead as it's started into the case. It also makes it easier to set the bullet in the mouth of the case.

9mm should be .355 or .356. Might be a reason why these bullets were so inexpensive...

I have 2 expanders for my .45 Colts, depending on whether I'm seating .452 or .454 bullets. Val sent me some .456 (or were they .458), bullets to test in my .45Colt rifles... still haven't loaded them up, as with the cases will probably be "wasp-waisted" after seating that large a bullet, even with the .454 expander. I'm sure these won't chamber in my handguns, but the 45Colt rifles are notoriously generous in their chamber sizes. Looking forward to doing this testing, as these large bullets may eliminate much of the blowback into the action. One can hope, anyway!

[JohndeFresno]

You'll find that different brands of cases have different neck thicknesses, and will make production a nightmare if you are loading a mixed bag of cases. The expander does two basic functions...

You make a good point, Griff.

I'm using cases that I fired and there are no imperfect ones - e.g. crushed in slightly from mishandling or somebody stepping on them at the range. If I find any that are not perfectly round, I'll have to use an expander first, to true up the inside of the case; then size them and run them completely through without an expander, it looks like... unless I find the perfect setting for flaring them.

As for mixed brass - up until now with this 9mm pistol round, I have not experienced any significant problems with the 15 other calibers I have loaded (handgun and rifle).

Clearly, the easiest fix is to use bullets of the proper diameter, as stated above.

[JohndeFresno]

I switched to an old RCBS sizing die that appears to be just a mite tighter, and then followed through with the reloading.

I now have some consistent X-Treme loads - tried out several today and they worked out well. Next is to load up the rest of those 500 rounds I purchased.

I am also going to try the Lee Undersized Carbide Sizer die for this caliber. It is on order. It sizes .001 to .002 inch smaller, and reportedly reaches down further towards the base and prevents bullet setback by increasing the neck tension.

Once seated properly, I have to admit that the X-Treme loads worked out pretty well.

A few shelf-ammo shooters left me lots of free 9mm brass. With the brass costing nothing, this X-Treme 147 grain target load costs half as much as the cheapest ammo I found online (below) or even the 115 grain Blazer Brass ammo available at some local shops for $.22 a round.

Excerpt from the Cost Calculator in my database - my current 9mm X-Treme load


Given the time and trouble caused by this stubby and finicky cartridge, I considered buying the inexpensive Blazer Brass 9mm Target ammo ($.22 ea) until I noticed the $100 savings per 1,000 rounds of handloaded ammo.

[J Miller]

You'll find that different brands of cases have different neck thicknesses, and will make production a nightmare if you are loading a mixed bag of cases. The expander does two basic functions... (it'll expand the inside of the case to a consistent size, and apply a varying amount of bell to the mouth depending on how deep you set the expander. With lead bullets, you generally want a little amount of bell so the edge of the case doesn't shave lead as it's started into the case. It also makes it easier to set the bullet in the mouth of the case.

9mm should be .355 or .356. Might be a reason why these bullets were so inexpensive...

I have 2 expanders for my .45 Colts, depending on whether I'm seating .452 or .454 bullets. Val sent me some .456 (or were they .458), bullets to test in my .45Colt rifles... still haven't loaded them up, as with the cases will probably be "wasp-waisted" after seating that large a bullet, even with the .454 expander. I'm sure these won't chamber in my handguns, but the 45Colt rifles are notoriously generous in their chamber sizes. Looking forward to doing this testing, as these large bullets may eliminate much of the blowback into the action. One can hope, anyway!

Griff,
Been my experience with lever guns that blow back is caused by under pressured loads not expanding the cases to seal the chambers in the rifles, not the the bullet diameter.
However, I'm interested in how those larger bullets work so do keep us posted.

John,
Didn't mean to hijack your thread, just thought I'd comment on Griff's up coming experiment.
Besides I know little about 9mms.
When I've had loose bullets in 45 ACP cases, and I've loaded gazillions of them, I've had to go to the point of using undersized expanders that did not expand the cases, but did bell them a bit. That "usually" did the trick.
When I ran into a bunch of really thin walled cases I'd load them up then use them at the next IPSC match and leave them behind .

Joe

[JohndeFresno]

John,
Didn't mean to hijack your thread, just thought I'd comment on Griff's up coming experiment...
Joe

No problem, Joe. It's all good information relevant to safe and effective handloading. And after more than 13 years at this I am still learning from you, Griff, and many other truly knowledgeable handloaders and shooters at this site. I really appreciate your input.

This is still the best forum of its type on the Internet!