OT - Got me a 'new' vintage six-gun (photo)

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:58 pm

I figured some of you might enjoy a photo of an old sixgun I just received last week. It's a S&W Schofield, chambered in the 45 S&W. This particular sixgun was purchased for use by the US Cavalry in 1876. It was likely used in the Indian wars between 1876 and 1880, when all Schofields were retired from use by the Cavalry. These Schofields saw heavy use by the 4th Cavalry against the Apaches under Geronimo. They were also used by the 9th and 10th Cavalry, and a loaded Schofield was found in 1883 at the scene of the Battle of Little Bighorn. It is now in the Smithsonian ( http://americanhistory.si.edu/militaryh ... =6.1.r_522 ). Yesterday, I started developing a load for this old classic historical gun. I'm not quite finished yet, but it looks like I've got a very low-pressure round that sends a 250 grain bullet out the barrel at 800 fps. I'll report the details once I'm finished. Here's a photo:

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:03 pm

It sure is perty!

Are those grips wood?
It's black powder, right?

1886 · Post by **1886** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:06 pm

Just imagine the tales it could tell. Nice find. 1886.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:10 pm

Great picture, interesting history!

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:13 pm

Scott 64, the grips are Walnut and the 45 S&W cartridge was always a black powder cartridge so far as I'm aware. I'm not using black powder in this one, however. My preference is to use a load that has a significantly lower peak pressure than black powder. I started with IMR 3031, but even with the case crammed full of powder and slightly compressed, I was only getting just over 600 fps, so I've gone to IMR 4198 and it looks like I'm there. I want to shoot a number of loads to get an accurate reading of extreme spread before I post my results. IMR 3031 and IMR 4198 aren't normally used in pistol cartridges, since they are considered to be way too slow, but both of them have been shown by Sherman Bell to give lower peak pressures than black powder for the same velocity. My problem is that the pressure is so low that it doesn't expand the strong Starline brass enough to seal off the chambers, with the result that soot leaks back along the outside of the cases. However, for the lower pressure, I'll settle for dirty cases. Burning seems to be clean and the extreme spread seems to be close to black powder extreme spreads, but I want to try about 10 more rounds over the Chrony to verify this.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:22 pm

Lookin' GOOD, Kirk. I wonder how a case full of 4198 would work in an old workhorse .44 WCF SA?

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:43 pm

Mike D. wrote:Lookin' GOOD, Kirk. I wonder how a case full of 4198 would work in an old workhorse .44 WCF SA?

Mike, if the gun is still safe enough for black powder, then it should certainly be able to handle IMR 4198. I try to choose my powder so that I get a capacity load. This keeps the E.S. real low, similar to BP. This is why I started with IMR 3031, but it just could not generate sufficient energy for a case full. I use 5744 in my 44 Russian, but your 44 WCF has a bit more capacity, so I'm not sure what I'd wind up with. You might not be able to get enough IMR 4198 into a 44 WCF to reach original BP velocities .... ? If you don't want to use your SA to experiment with, you could use your 44 WCF carbine, as long as you have a Chrony, to see if you could get original BP carbine velocities with IMR 4198.

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:17 pm

Great find! Love the history.

mrdix · Post by **mrdix** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:24 pm

Why not try trailboss powder, isn't that what its made for??

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:27 pm

Good idea, Kirk. The carbine should be a good test platform.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:34 pm

mrdix wrote:Why not try trailboss powder, isn't that what its made for??

Trailboss is an extremely fast powder. One should never use powders faster than 2400 in black powder firearms, and Trailboss is much faster than even Unique. The one redeeming factor with Traiboss is that it is bulky, so that it fills the case better. It should only be used in modern firearms but never, ever in original black powder firearms.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:37 pm

I just tested the case capacity of a Starline 44-40 case. 27.3 grs of IMR 4198 leaves enough room for a bullet, but it is lightly compressed. I plan on reducing to 25 grs to start.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:50 pm

That sounds promising, Mike. However, I'm wondering if 25 grains is too much to duplicate BP velocities. I certainly could be wrong, but I didn't go near that much powder in the 45 S&W. I only use 29 grains of IMR 4198 behind a 405 grain bullet to get 1,400 fps in my 45-70. I might start with 18 grains of IMR 4198 in a 44 WCF just to be on the safe side. I think its original velocity was just under 1,200 fps with a 200 grain bullet. From what you said, I'm wondering if IMR 3031 would be better for a capacity load.

don Tomás · Post by **don Tomás** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:43 pm

KirkD wrote:
mrdix wrote:Why not try trailboss powder, isn't that what its made for??
Trailboss is an extremely fast powder. One should never use powders faster than 2400 in black powder firearms, and Trailboss is much faster than even Unique. The one redeeming factor with Traiboss is that it is bulky, so that it fills the case better. It should only be used in modern firearms but never, ever in original black powder firearms.

Used Trail Boss in my original TrapDoor with no problems (early 1873 manufacture according to serial #). No signs of pressure problems, and reloading data indicated pressures well below recommended maximum for these old warriors. While Trail Boss filled the cases nicely and cleanup was a snap, rounds just weren't fun to shoot: kinda anemic to shoot, no boom, no smoke, etc., compared to the Army carbine load of 405gn w/55gn BP. PLUS, everything I read said shooting any smokeless was just taking too great a chance no matter what. You've got a great gun there (a "time machine" is what my boy calls the TrapDoor), why take a chance with smokeless - keep it safe for those who will come after you. Just my 2 centavos. Congratulations on your acquisition...

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:53 pm

Ah, ******* WOW!

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:31 pm

I wish S&W wouild make them again

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:58 pm

Beautiful, were going to have to give you a new handle, Schofield Kid

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:30 pm

I've thought they were neat ever since I watched a documentry about S&W.

Out of my $$$ range though.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:32 pm

Keeping history alive.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:37 pm

Outstanding!

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:15 pm

don TomÃ¡s wrote:While Trail Boss filled the cases nicely and cleanup was a snap, rounds just weren't fun to shoot: kinda anemic to shoot, no boom, no smoke, etc., compared to the Army carbine load of 405gn w/55gn BP. PLUS, everything I read said shooting any smokeless was just taking too great a chance no matter what. You've got a great gun there (a "time machine" is what my boy calls the TrapDoor), why take a chance with smokeless - keep it safe for those who will come after you. Just my 2 centavos. Congratulations on your acquisition...

Trail Boss, in proper application, using tried and tested published loads is safe for modern guns. However, when it comes to how 'spikey' the pressure curve is, Trail Boss has a Dupont Index (DPI) of around 700 and a Relative Quickness (RQ) of around 100. Black powder has a DPI closer to 200 and an RQ of closer to 32. IMR 4198 has a DPI of only 160 and an RQ of only 23. IMR 3031 is even lower, with a DPI of 135 and an RQ of 19. What this means is that, for the same velocity, Trail Boss will give a much higher pressure spike than Black powder, and Black Powder will have a higher peak pressure than IMR 4198.

The way around this, if one is using Trail Boss, is to go for a much lower velocity in an effort to keep the peak pressure down. It sounds like this is what you have experienced with your 45-70 loads. If a fellow has a good understanding of the effects of various smokeless powders and their burning speeds and relative quicknesses, etc. then no chance at all is being taken when using low pressure smokeless loads in BP guns. For most folks who may not take a special interest in the properties of different smokeless powders and how they translate to loads, it's probably best to stick with black powder in black powder guns.

don Tomás · Post by **don Tomás** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:46 pm

KirkD wrote: The way around this, if one is using Trail Boss, is to go for a much lower velocity in an effort to keep the peak pressure down. It sounds like this is what you have experienced with your 45-70 loads. If a fellow has a good understanding of the effects of various smokeless powders and their burning speeds and relative quicknesses, etc. then no chance at all is being taken when using low pressure smokeless loads in BP guns. For most folks who may not take a special interest in the properties of different smokeless powders and how they translate to loads, it's probably best to stick with black powder in black powder guns.

Yup, I'm sure you're correct. Before I fired my Trapdoor I did a heap of research. All I'm saying is good understanding or not, special interest or not, there's a lot of horror stories out there by very knowledgeable people crying the blues about not knowing about unseen/unnoticed flaws, metal fatigue/crystallization, etc., that's all. Heck, what I don't know could probably fill a book! You enjoy that treasure...

Tom

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:00 pm

RIHMFIRE wrote:I wish S&W wouild make them again

I think they did, didn't they, just recently?

Kirk - beautiful gun, and I can't wait to see the results of your range session!!!

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:04 pm

don TomÃ¡s wrote:
While Trail Boss filled the cases nicely and cleanup was a snap, rounds just weren't fun to shoot: kinda anemic to shoot, no boom, no smoke, etc., compared to the Army carbine load of 405gn w/55gn BP.

Tom, not to hijack Kirk's post, but did you actually "fill" the .45-70 case with Trail Boss? I know it's bulky, but that seems like a lot of powder. What was the grain-weight of your charge?

Thanks,

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:19 pm

Kirk, that is a good looking sixgun.Reckon that will be your back country carry gun now. can you carry six or do you have to carry five like my Colt? Enjoy the "work" getting up a good load. A 250gr slug at 800fps. should do for your cats and other needs.

Jerry

don Tomás · Post by **don Tomás** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:54 pm

Ysabel Kid wrote:Tom, not to hijack Kirk's post, but did you actually "fill" the .45-70 case with Trail Boss? I know it's bulky, but that seems like a lot of powder. What was the grain-weight of your charge?

Thanks,

No! PM sent so we don't steal the thread...
Tom

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:56 pm

Thanks Tom!

CanadianCowboy · Post by **CanadianCowboy** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:47 pm

kirk, is that on the extra special list?

and whereabouts did you find it? I get my cripple payment (finally, hopefully) in the next month or so and whether the wife likes it or not I am getting some old Iron with it

I ran into some trouble with a borrowed Webley Mark 1, was told it was still classified as a handgun for the purposes of carrying (in the bush) so was wondering if you have a copy of the authority stating otherwise as well

you always find the nicest looking iron, the ones I find around here would make you weep, and not in joy

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:20 am

Jerry, I have to carry 5, the firing pin rests on #6.

Don, I hear you. It is always best to be very cautious.

Canadian Cowboy, it is a legal antique, which one can carry and shoot anywhere one can a normal non-restricted firearm. Perhaps the person was thinking of hunting? You may not hunt with a handgun in most provinces, even if it is a legal antique. You can certainly carry if for target shooting, or animal security for your family in the bush. It is not even classified as a firearm unless used in a criminal offense. You'd have to ask the person to show you the law .... it isn't there.

CanadianCowboy · Post by **CanadianCowboy** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:47 pm

Kirk,

that is what I figured, fishcops though, they also told me my Garand was an illegal firearm and not suitable for hunting... Didn't say anything good about my 30-30 either, I think they are just bitter public servnts

Was this pioece a local find or out of the USofA? now that our dollar has hit above parity I ma looking hard south fo the border for a Schofield (as I think .45 smith is also antique is it not?)

looking forward to a range report

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:18 pm

Kirk,
NEAT! What a piece of history! Using 4198 in it would be the way to go and actually RL-7 would work well also. It meters much better and is a tad slower in burning rate.

Mike D,
Data for RL-7 in the .44-40 is on the Alliant website.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/ ... lletid=348
Note that they are using a 240 gr. bullet to get the slower powder to burn better. I have used RL-7 in a capacity load under a lighter 215 gr. bullet with good results in the .44 W.C.F. which gave b.p. velocities.

4198 is a tad faster burning than RL-7. Thus I would back off about 10% from a capacity load and go from there.

w30wcf

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:44 pm

Canadian Cowboy, I don't expect the various law enforcement people to know the law re. antique handguns. In a perfect world, yes, but in the real world, no. For that reason, I print out the relevant sections of the criminal code and firearms regs on a piece of paper and carry it with me. If I ever run into a problem, I've got the relevant sections on my person to show any inquiring minds. Of course, I'd rather not have the hassle of doing this, so I'm discreet about where I pack my irons. It's either on my own property or in remote areas where I am unlikely to see anyone.

I got this Schofield in the US and I had to sell my nicest Winchester to get the funds to do it. I was talking with a Canadian dealer who attends all the shows and buys and sells a lot of guns, and he has not even seen a Schofield in years. In general, the old Model 3 S&W's, including the Schofield and New Model #3, have been climbing in price even faster than old Winchesters. Like me, you may have to sell something pretty valuable in order to swing it. Give me a shout when you're ready, I ran across a bunch of NM #3's recently, although they may all be sold by now.

w30wcf, I like the sounds of RL-7 so far as metering goes. I don't have any but I got lots of IMR 4198, so I'll probably stick with that for now, but I'd like to give RL-7 whirl sometime.

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:09 pm

Very nice shootin' iron KirkD...have fun shooting her. Sorry to hear about the Winchester sacrifice, but I know exactly how that works.

RIHMFIRE wrote:I wish S&W wouild make them again

They do. A local gunshop here has two custom shop Schofields, fully engraved, serial numbers 1 and 2. They want about $15k apiece (last I asked), but "prefer" not to seperate them. They've had them well over a year. They are absolutely stunning. They may be the same as this, although I don't know if the engraving is the same: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/ ... sFirearm=Y

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:16 pm

There are a couple of modern S&W Schofields for sale on GunsAmerica

Warhawk · Post by **Warhawk** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:38 pm

If guns could talk ... Congratulations!

20cows · Post by **20cows** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:22 am

I understand you logic in using the slow rifle powders for the desired pressure curve, but I would think that this would be a situation where barrel length is critical.

Are you getting ~700 fps out of the short barrel with a small amount of rifle powder?

BTW, WOW on the find and the willingness to do what it took to acquire it!

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:44 am

20cows wrote:I understand you logic in using the slow rifle powders for the desired pressure curve, but I would think that this would be a situation where barrel length is critical.

Are you getting ~700 fps out of the short barrel with a small amount of rifle powder?

BTW, WOW on the find and the willingness to do what it took to acquire it!

I think barrel length is a factor in handguns. When I develop a load, the target velocity I'm working for is the one that the original black powder loads gave for that barrel length. This Schofield still has its original 7" barrel so I just aim for the standard original velocity, which is in the neighbourhood of 800 fps with a 250 grain bullet, a little faster with the 230 grain bullet. Most original Schofields have had their barrels cut down to 5" since they were retired from the US military. I would expect that this would reduce the muzzle velocity of original loads somewhat, although I can only estimate how much (say, 50 fps?). Incidentally, my first load was 13 grains of IMR 3031, which gave me 231 fps over the chrono. The bullet hit the stump, made a 1/4" dent in the wood, and bounced off onto the ground. The hard cast bullet was still in perfect shape, except for the rifling marks, saving me a slugging job. Unfortunately, the rifling is not even (there's a groove opposite a land), so measuring the bullet is a little difficult. Today, I hope to finish the load development and will give a full report, including all the loads I tried with both IMR 3031 and IMR 4198 and their velocities.

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:50 am

Kirk - probably getting a vintage in my class - details in the PM.

Last Spike · Post by **Last Spike** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:27 am

Wonderful gun! Kirk, now you need to get an equally good rifle/carbine to go with the Schofield....

Harry