OT but still guns.

[jnyork]

On another board, some mention was made of the current state of affairs regarding the marksmanship training our soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines now receive in Basic Training and advanced training . Would be neat if some active duty members could chime in here, some from each branch, and give us a detailed report, should be very interesting. Thanks.

[AmBraCol]

On another board, some mention was made of the current state of affairs regarding the marksmanship training our soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines now receive in Basic Training and advanced training . Would be neat if some active duty members could chime in here, some from each branch, and give us a detailed report, should be very interesting. Thanks.

Recently, in a topic I believe is titled "How do you do it?" JReed posted some pics of current crop of youngsters on the firing line. One of the kids made Expert after a couple of Marksman qualifications. I'm not exactly sure what you heard, whether positive or negative, but apparently they're learning to shoot the mousegun real well now.

[Mich Hunter]

Below is my opinion and not the Air Forces. I am not bitter. Just stating some facts



I am active duty USAF and work at the firing range. My primary job is to teach AF personnel on various weapon systems from M9 pistol to MK19 and to also work on these weapons. The current state of firearms training in the AF is SAD!!! The AF does not put allot of emphasis on firearms training unlike the Army of Marines (ie. everyone is a rifleman first, job second). In the last few years, the AF has tried to adopt some kind of Warrior concept. Please don't laugh!! Its true. They have extended Basic training to try and add field training but the quality of training they get at Lackland is garbage. The standard if any is not being met. I meet young troops that know they left unqualified, but were passed anyways. Here is the problem.

1. Basic rule of thumb is if it doesn't fly or drop bombs, it doesn't really matter and don't count on getting any money. I have been told that on several occasions by mostly officers.

2. I still have E-7's and higher that cannot perform a basic field strip of an M16A2 or M9. Most just don't care and believe that they will never have to use it. When I came in, if you didn't qualify in Basic training, you didn't leave until you did. This is not the case anymore. They simply fudge the numbers

3. While everyone is beefing up their forces, the AF is drawing down in personnel in order to afford new planes. We simply do not have enough people to get the training done correctly

4. Most of our ranges are severe health hazards and we have instructors getting medically boarded or retired because of this. They will not dump more money into them because it takes away from buy new planes

5. My career field was merged (biggest mistake ever made) into the AF Security Forces (Air Force MP's) and they now dictate what we do and how we train others.

We have tried to change this thinking but nobody seems to care until they are notified that they are deploying to the green zone. The problem starts at the top and goes all the way down to senior enlisted. Gen Curtis Lemay (who created my career field after an AF base in Korea was over ran and everyone slaughtered) would roll over in his grave if he knew what was going on today. Quite frankly it is an embarrassment to me and the AF. Just like our new ABU uniform that was designed by a bunch of desk jockey's in Washington. The only time they go into the field is for a smoke break when they leave their office. Talk about Fraud, Waste and Abuse.

[Rustolium]

I second the previous posters comments. I was really dissapointed when I went through Basic in Lackland. I have been in 5 1/2 years and shot the M16 TWICE!!! Two days total, that's it. I'm not sure how it is for cops or other combat personnel, but as a machinist we only shoot 25yds. at tiny targets to simulate long range. Very sad, I shoot my .22 at longer ranges. Oh well.