.380, or .38 Special

[retmech]

I have the Keltec P3AT and it has never missed a beat. ALWAYS in my front pocket. They are not pleasant to shoot due to their light weight but they are accurate and reliable. IMO equal to snub nosed .38's with 2 more rounds.

[ceb]

I too have both, a LCP and a Smith 442. In truth I trust the .38 cartridge over the .380 but the LCP is almost always in the pocket of my pants when just sitting around the house. Neither of these is my normal carry however, for that I use a S&W Shield in .40 most of the time or a Colt CCO in .45ACP, carried IWB. About the only time I pocket carry is if i'm forced to wear a tucked shirt with a tie.

[Grizz]

well, been reading some. here's a long one:

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ball ... morgue.htm

long read. good info. reason for us medium bore carriers to test that our bullets don't blow up or fragment.

here are two more interesting links:

http://forums.officer.com/t128532/

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/a ... eat-a-9mm/

lots of info. practice with what you have. don't depend on "center mass" hits to stop a fight. learn to aim small under adversity, if possible.

learn to shoot the eyeball, no denim to mess up the shot, I guess . . .

[Blaine]

This Buffalo Bore 100gr Hardcast .380 surpasses most .38 loads....I think I'll look for a couple three boxes of this stuff.....
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=127

[TedH]

Dang, that stuff is moooving! I have a Ranch Dog mold for my 380 that is 103 gr. with a wide flat nose. When cast from wheel weights I can push them to 1050 out of my G42 with very good accuracy. Much hotter than that and accuracy goes bye bye. I think the shallow polygonal rifling starts to strip out. But as it is, I believe they would be a very good defensive load. They will fully penetrate a 12" block of 10% ballistic gel leaving a nice cavity up to 8 or 9 inches, then it starts to taper down.

[Ji in Hawaii]

I prefer wheel guns and I reload so I vote 38 Special. I remember a few years back the best 38 load was the 158 grain Nylock load. I like having the option of heavier loads and ability to shoot a variety of weights and power reliably. I also don't like looking for my brass in the grass. I know, not in the mix but I also prefer the 357 mag over the 38 Special, more power and versatility in a similar size and weight package.

[Blaine]

I prefer wheel guns and I reload so I vote 38 Special. I remember a few years back the best 38 load was the 158 grain Nylock load. I like having the option of heavier loads and ability to shoot a variety of weights and power reliably. I also don't like looking for my brass in the grass. I know, not in the mix but I also prefer the 357 mag over the 38 Special, more power and versatility in a similar size and weight package.

I think I've had speed loaders come undone way more than I've had FTFs on my semi's.....

[cshold]

This Buffalo Bore 100gr Hardcast .380 surpasses most .38 loads....I think I'll look for a couple three boxes of this stuff.....
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=127

May have to give this a try as well.
Thanks for the heads up Blaine.

[jeepnik]

Well heck, all this .38spl/.380acp stuff motivated me to carry the medium calibers this week. A couple of days it was the Charter Arms Southpaw and a S&W Airweight as backup. Other days I carried the Glock 42 and AMT SA Backup.

I have to admit the Airweight is a bit nicer on the ankle than the AMT. I don't know if it actually weighs less or just the way the weight is distributed.

[retmech]

This Buffalo Bore 100gr Hardcast .380 surpasses most .38 loads....I think I'll look for a couple three boxes of this stuff.....
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=127

Their ballistics show 1016 fps out of a Keltec. I can tell you from experience that load is one you had better practice a lot with if you carry it in a KT. I load and shoot the Ranch Dog 100 gr bullet in my KT and at 900fps it is somewhat difficult to control and shoot accurately. IMO adding 100 fps would make that little 8 oz. pistol downright painful to shoot. I practice with an 800 fps load and end the session with a couple mags of the 900 fps just to keep current. I personally want no part of BB loads in a KT, they would probably be ok in the heavier .380's like the Glock 42 or Sig.

[Ji in Hawaii]

I prefer wheel guns and I reload so I vote 38 Special. I remember a few years back the best 38 load was the 158 grain Nylock load. I like having the option of heavier loads and ability to shoot a variety of weights and power reliably. I also don't like looking for my brass in the grass. I know, not in the mix but I also prefer the 357 mag over the 38 Special, more power and versatility in a similar size and weight package.

I think I've had speed loaders come undone way more than I've had FTFs on my semi's.....

I am happy for you, but what does this have to do with my post?

[Old Ironsights]

I prefer wheel guns and I reload so I vote 38 Special. I remember a few years back the best 38 load was the 158 grain Nylock load. I like having the option of heavier loads and ability to shoot a variety of weights and power reliably. I also don't like looking for my brass in the grass. I know, not in the mix but I also prefer the 357 mag over the 38 Special, more power and versatility in a similar size and weight package.

I think I've had speed loaders come undone way more than I've had FTFs on my semi's.....

I am happy for you, but what does this have to do with my post?

I also prefer .357 to .38 and generally carry a .35 wheelie with a mix that meets my daily needs.

It's waay more comfortable than my Autos.

Still, I do agree with Blaine. I HATE (HATE HATE) round "speed loaders". They ALWAYS end up dropping the rounds unless in a semi-rigid "speed-loader pouch". I've NEVER had a 5 or 6 shot Round "speed loader" be worth the sales tax paid on it.

OTOH, I AM a fan of Bianchi "speed strips". Certainly NOT a "speedloader" in any sense, bu they at least keep your spare ammo handy and consolidated. And refilling your cylinder 2-at-a-time isn't all that slow either...

[Blaine]

I prefer wheel guns and I reload so I vote 38 Special. I remember a few years back the best 38 load was the 158 grain Nylock load. I like having the option of heavier loads and ability to shoot a variety of weights and power reliably. I also don't like looking for my brass in the grass. I know, not in the mix but I also prefer the 357 mag over the 38 Special, more power and versatility in a similar size and weight package.

I think I've had speed loaders come undone way more than I've had FTFs on my semi's.....

I am happy for you, but what does this have to do with my post?

Thanks for being happy for me. What does a .357 have to do with my post?

[BrianSH]

Something I'm exploring:
http://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ ... wadcutter/

Punches right through 2x4, and makes a hole that won't close. - Brian

[Bullard4075]

When I first became a cop, I was required to carry a .38Spl. 6 plus 2 speedi-loaders never seemed too lightly armed. In the military I was used to carrying a 1911A1 with two magazines of 7 rounds of ball. The JHP 38s seemed better suited to business than 45 ball. Off duty, then working plain clothes I could carry a 1911, so I got a Combat Commander and carried JHPs in 45Auto. Always felt more confident... Now, I hardly ever carry that S&W, and carry either the CC or the full-size 1911.

A 380 might be ok, but, a 45 seems so much more appropriate. Especially in light of the past few days, and what I perceive to be a renewed threat against the homeland.

++1

[Grizz]

on the airport run last night I had 13 in the 45 at 3 o'clock and 14 in the 9 on the ankle. and other invisible accoutrements. so I thought that if the opportunity arose I could offer a choice of hole size . . .

[Ji in Hawaii]

When I first became a cop, I was required to carry a .38Spl. 6 plus 2 speedi-loaders never seemed too lightly armed. In the military I was used to carrying a 1911A1 with two magazines of 7 rounds of ball. The JHP 38s seemed better suited to business than 45 ball. Off duty, then working plain clothes I could carry a 1911, so I got a Combat Commander and carried JHPs in 45Auto. Always felt more confident... Now, I hardly ever carry that S&W, and carry either the CC or the full-size 1911.

A 380 might be ok, but, a 45 seems so much more appropriate. Especially in light of the past few days, and what I perceive to be a renewed threat against the homeland.

++1

I prefer wheel guns and I reload so I vote 38 Special. I remember a few years back the best 38 load was the 158 grain Nylock load. I like having the option of heavier loads and ability to shoot a variety of weights and power reliably. I also don't like looking for my brass in the grass. I know, not in the mix but I also prefer the 357 mag over the 38 Special, more power and versatility in a similar size and weight package.

I think I've had speed loaders come undone way more than I've had FTFs on my semi's.....

I am happy for you, but what does this have to do with my post?

Thanks for being happy for me. What does a .357 have to do with my post?

Just addin' a little spice to the mix...

[Malamute]

well, been reading some. here's a long one:

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ball ... morgue.htm

long read. good info. reason for us medium bore carriers to test that our bullets don't blow up or fragment.

I'm not 100% positive its the same person, but I believe this guy has been exposed as a fraud.

There is some very good, current, state of the art information about testing of terminal ballistics in general, and specific loads. The actual science of it is vastly better than the old (and basically fraudulent) "one shot stops" stuff people used to believe 20 or so years ago, and is an ongoing thing. This isnt youtube grade gel testers doing it as a hobby, but those involved in it from .gov, .mil and LE use, correlated with numerous seminars over the years and done in controlled repeatable methods. One of the names to look for is Dr Gary K Roberts.

Denim or other clothing material isnt a problem with the newer high grade ammo. Its been worked out how to make most hollowpoint ammo work in a variety of situations, we dont have to rely on 20-30 year old bullet technology and think its great stuff.

[Booger Bill]

I have been trying occasionally but I still just don't feel safe from shooting myself yet packing my sig 238 in a pocket holster in condition one as I do with just my s&w model 40 loose in my pocket. I have zero concern packing my smith but just don't feel very safe with my sig in condition one yet. Old habits are hard to break. I feel fair with the Sig on the small belt holster but still not as well as any revolver. Truth is although I have owned a fair number of various auto`s through the years I have NEVER felt as safe as I do with the many revolvers I have and had. It`s no doubt due to my lack of training with autos. I packed on my guard job over 35 years exclusively with revolvers and had to qualify with them every year.

[Malamute]

Still, I do agree with Blaine. I HATE (HATE HATE) round "speed loaders". They ALWAYS end up dropping the rounds unless in a semi-rigid "speed-loader pouch". I've NEVER had a 5 or 6 shot Round "speed loader" be worth the sales tax paid on it.

OTOH, I AM a fan of Bianchi "speed strips". Certainly NOT a "speedloader" in any sense, bu they at least keep your spare ammo handy and consolidated. And refilling your cylinder 2-at-a-time isn't all that slow either...

Which brand of loaders were you using? I've had problems with HKS loaders dumping rounds, not much of a problem with the Safariland loaders. The Comp 2 and better yet Comp 3 work very well. Comp 3's are pretty big though. Would be OK for pocket carry in a winter coat. The Comp 3's have a spring that slaps the rounds into the chambers when released. Way cool compared to the HKS units. No jiggling the shells around to get them aligned and started into the chambers. They are held rigidly in perfect alignment.

Safarilands hold the rounds straighter. The Comp 3 even feeds full wadcutters relatively well. Only comp 1's available for 5 shot J frames. Still like them better than the HKS.

Speed strips are OK, not nearly as fast as loaders. Nice for more spares after a speed loader or two without the bulk though.

[MrMurphy]

Bill, then either acquire some modern, current quality training, or stick with what you know.

If you've been working for 35 years, odds are, you're close to retirement or are retired. Most problems you will likely run into you can solve with a revolver if you've got decades of using them.


Me? I've got 40 rounds of .45 and 15 9mm on me at work, plus a significant amount of 5.56mm.

By preference, it'd be 56 9mm and 15 in the other 9mm, but that's where it stands at the moment.


With the original question, I prefer a .38 with 135 grain Gold Dots between the two choices.

I carry a 9mm in that role, but that's me. I also have a 642, but I'm a faster, more accurate shot with the 9mm, even though I started out on revolvers and have many many thousands of rounds through them.

[M. M. Wright]

You know, I've been carrying the same HKS speed loader, (for my Colt Cobra) for at least 20 years and it has NEVER dumped them in my pocket. And I just drop it in my jeans or overall left pocket with keys, change and whatever else that is in there. Well,in the winter when I have a vest or jacket on, I like it in the right hand pocket. I learned the old drill of using the left hand and putting two fingers though the cylinder window and pushing the ejector with the thumb then recharging with the right hand. Yes, keeping the revolver in the right hand and slapping the ejector with the left palm is quicker and allows keeping your grip but old habits are what you will do in stressful situations.
You wanna dump your re-loads in your pocket? I still have a couple of the old Dade loaders along with the belt slide for them. They will sometimes dump themselves into their carrier.

[Grizz]

@Malamute: thanks for the heads up. was not aware the mortician was not right. sounded realistic to me compared to my experience making meat with various bullets and firearms. I hate bad info, sorry I posted it.

@Bill: I carry the lcp in condition 1, constantly. in pocket or in a high noon softie. the lcp has the trigger pull of a da revolver, it isn't likely to go off accidently.

on airport runs and the like I carry the two xd's in cond1. the double safety of the xd's is reliable and trouble free. so far I haven't read of people shooting themselves with either of those firearms

[Booger Bill]

Retired. Those 35 years are already 15 years gone. It all started 50 years ago. Many will think me naive but unless we have war on the streets I have never yet felt the need to carry a ton of extra ammo. I have always felt whatever is in my revolver will do the job. Sure, we can get hit with a meteorite too. If I was a street cop MAYBE I might feel the need for a 2nd gun, especially if it were a department rule but otherwise probably not. I am so old I used to carry drop pouches. I have speed loaders but frankly cant remember carrying them. Murphy's law does happen once in awhile especially over a lifetime. I lived at work. Those 35 years were really more like 50 if it was based on a standard of 40 hours as I never worked 40 hours but took all OT and am positive I averaged a minimum of 60 hours a week. Once I was pulling several double shifts in a row and must have been punchy. We used company revolvers and would give them to our relief`s. I started to take mine out of the holster to give to my replacement. There were like maybe 6 or 8 guards at shift change there. As I started to unholster mine I seemed to snap alert and think WTF did I just do? I had cocked the DA revolver automaticly as I started to pull it. As usual everyone was talking to each other and no one noticed. I walked out of the building to spit my chaw but really to uncock the revolver. My first revolver was a Ruger Single Six and by that time I probley owned a half dozen of Colt and Rugers that I liked to use for fun. Maybe a person should stick with one action. Like most of us I have accumulated a collection. I own about 30 handguns that covers a couple of auto`s, about a dozen single actions and the rest all DA smiths and colts. I used to own a couple of s&w model 39`s (they are DA) a couple of Lugers, Browning HP, Radom, Browning 380, Colt 380 etc and etc. I still own a highly customized Remington Rand that Pachmayer customized and put on adjustable sights etc over 50 years ago. The only thing I have never owned is any black plastic stuff.
Getting back to the subject. Sure we all will try all kinds of stuff when you are starting out. I own Pythons and a half dozen N frame smiths, of .357`s, 7 .44 specials, .44 mag, a 1917 s&w and 5 or 6 .45 Colts. I DONT carry any of them concealed!! I go for comfort. I already am carrying 270 pounds skun and with age have found I will carry a pocket pistol but don't look forward to packing a belt gun. I had to do that for those 35 years and any novelty in it soon wears off. I get a kick out of seeing young cops sporting 40 pounds of stuff on their gun belts! You never see a old vet carry more than they are required to.
I do have one belt gun that I do carry concealed under a loose shirt or jacket once in awhile with a pancake holster. It`s a S&W 3 inch model 36 with the pencil barrel. It`s light, 38 special 5 shot. I have ugly pachmyer rubber grips on it that are narrow but hand filling.
It`s the one on top in the first picture and the middle one in the second picture.

[Grizz]

Bill

Nice guns, I have some also. I used to carry them around. In Alaska I carry a 44mag wheel gun because the threats are cute cuddly furry friends that weigh 900 pounds that sit on you and eat your guts while you are screaming.

I am not armed for the lone prowler who is armed the same way. I am armed to counter the type of home invasions we have around here, several bad guys with shotguns, and the type of violence that has become common in America, murdurous riots by the indiginous criminal class, and the violence of the islamonazi class, bad guys with ak's. like in paris. like in texas.

in those scenarios five shots do not seem to be the wisest choice to me. just talking about me. I decided that I did not want to be the first one to run out of ammo. it's not about me, it's about the threat.
it's about the mall. it's about the other slaughter-house zones where the bad guys are carrying lots of ammo. it's about not running dry on the first one and getting whacked by the other one.

there are armies of armed criminals in every major city who are killing for sport. there are sport killings almost every night in the seattle area. five shots might be four more than enough in one case and eleven less than enough on the next block.

is it better to arm for the threats or to arm for our personal comfort?

[Booger Bill]

I used to live and do my career in southern california. We are retired in SW Utah where most everybody but us are peaceful Mormons. Even here stuff does happen once in awhile. About two years ago less than a mile from our house a cop stopped to help shovel out a drunk native. The guy shot him while he was shoveling his car out of the snow! All that knew the native said he was a nice guy! We also had "character" that fancied himself a mountain man and would hit and live in boarded up cabins in the snowbound mountains during winters and dry camp the rest of the year on goodies that he had stole during the winter. A number of his cache`s were found. He eluded the law for 8 years! When run down he shot at a helicopter over him. He`s in the big house. In my general area there were 6 or 8 MJ farms raided in the mountains. All arrested were illegals that were probably slaves to cartels or coyotes. I checked out all locations and realized I had been near all on my many ATV rides. My and my wifes biggest entertainment is riding the many trails here. I dont pack a pocket pistol on those rides but carry one of my many larger revolvers and sometimes maybe a .357 Rossi lever. A year ago I sadly hit a fawn that jumped in front of the quad. That time I was carrying a .38 s&w M&P. It beat looking for a rock to brain it and put out of it`s misery.
In California both on and off my job I did have several confrontations where I drew a gun but I never shot it at anyone. I hope I never have to. Back to mowing the leaves. I get out of breath easy now days and take breaks with the "putter".

[MrMurphy]

I am an active street cop, and we don't like carrying weight any more than anyone else, but most of that is mandated equipment. The more options, the better.


I carry offduty much like Grizz, not for the 1 bad guy, but for the Columbine/Paris/Beslan crowd. So I carry a lot, and always.

[Grizz]

here's a load for .380 I hadn't seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmy7Vp7aNHw

It'd be just as impressive in the 38spcl.

And for penetration?

.380 is no slouch with this ammo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PDQcE-1T40

technology is coming our way

[JerryB]

M M Wright I have an HKS speed loader that I bought in 1984 for my 5 shot .44 special, always carried in my Levi pants pocket or a vest pocket and never once lost a round.