POLITICS - Greatest threat to our freedom

[Kismet]

I was very curious what the response would be around here when this subject hit. It seems we have the Libertarians that assume the government, facilitated by the MSM, is violating everyone's rights; we have anti-pedophiles (though hopefully we are all anti-pedophiles); and, we have a dash of religious supporters that will give the FLDS a free pass because they are acting in the name of their religion.

While I'm sure I will not bring harmony, I have a few ideas that I think everyone would agree with:
1) Polygamy is illegal.
2) Adult men having sex with 12-15 year old girls is a crime.
3) The government should obey the Constitution and Texas law.

So, looking at those points, here are my thoughts.

1) I agree with and support polygamy being illegal. I don't care about whether it was done in the past. I don't care whether it is part of their religion. So long as it is illegal, don't do it (and don't try to get around it by having multiple "spiritual" marriages).

2) Yep, crime through and through. One cannot simply establish his religion and then form an isolated community where the girls (and boys) don't know any better and then say things about how the victims don't mind or even like the set up. It is pure brainwashing. Plus, when the boys and girls cannot even leave the private community and interact with others there is no way that the crime can ever be reported. Religion should never be a shield for criminal behavior.

3) Yep, they should. Now we don't know many of the facts other than that the raid was allegedly initiated by a call from a girl saying what had happened to her. I don't know the basis for everyone else being detained - and I doubt that anyone else here does either. However, I do not assume that it is illegal as some others here do. It does not surprise me one bit that she did not jump out and say, "it was me that called!"

I will point out that the difficulty in these situations is that the brainwashed girls are not likely to disclose the truth about their lives even when given the opportunity. Given the challenges in even investigating such a case, I am willing to accept the phone call that was allegedly made as enough to start most of this investigation. (I don't know enough about what is happening to people once the search and investigation was carried out to say one way or the other what should be happening with everyone now.)

Yes, the State wields immense power that can be abused. But, it is also that power should be used to prevent criminal behavior on a mass scale. Is the FLDS marginalized? Darn right, but so are lots of other groups whose leaders are felons and that have foundational beliefs that are illegal. Just because Utah and Arizona have have refused to stand up to the FLDS doesn't mean that the rest of the nation should.

Michael in NH

[AJMD429]

...even the LDS has disavowed the FLDS.

The Catholics disavow the Jews, the Muslims disavow the LDS, the Brady Center disavows the NRA. So...?

One thing to keep in mind when we 'crusade to protect the children' is that worldwide, governments cause the deaths (via genocide) of far more 'innocent children' than the most ambitions pedophile ever could, and it may be true right here in the U.S. that social service agencies and government socialsitic policies destroy more children's lives than poverty and abuse do.

So, it's fine and dandy to advocate 'for the children' but just be careful that the cure isn't worse than the disease...the 'minor inconvenience' you cite is involving seizure of the belongings (most will never be returned) and rummaging through the private matters of hundreds of individuals, not even allowing them into their own homes or to be with their own families. If someone did this for any other less emotional 'cause' than the 'pedophilia' thing, we'd consider it an outrage.

[Old Ironsights]

You see, I CAN call them anything.

Not exactly. Not without consequences - as least not when made outside of a psudonym. Until they have been PROVEN to "be" paedos/molesters, calling them such is SLANDER. In print, it is LIBEL.

That is why not even the press will call them those things. They have been ACCUSED. They are ALLEGED to have committed. But, until convicted THEY are NOT.

This is still a free country.

Hasn't been since FDR.

But it means NOTHING until a court has decided...so let them do their job.

Agreed. So stop Slandering them until all is said and done, eh?

That is, unless you are worried the truth will come out??? Hmmm.....

Ya mean like the TRUTH that vindicated 43 some people in Wenatchee - after several of them had already spent YEARS behind bars because they were intimidated into copping a plea because they had no assets to finance a defense against obscene public outcry based upon Lies, Perjury and Media Bather?

Meh.

I wonder if you have noticed how GLEEFULLY the MSM has glommed onto the word "Fundamentalist" in the FLDS name... a word that they have hertofore used primarily in conjunction with Mainstream Christian Denominations and Islamic Radicals.

Isn't it curious? MSM doesn't like Christianity at all and lo and behold the word they have been using to describe Christians is suddenly linked with "ritual Paedophilia" and accused Paedophiles.

Yeah, I SOOOO believe the MSM's take.

[Old Ironsights]

So, we are frozen in our tracks due to "analysis paralysis"...and fear because, it might be the wrong thing. Maybe we should just sit idly by and suck our thumbs as the world whizzes by?

Mac, these people have been under scrutiny SINCE 1953[.

If you can't get a genuine case worked up in FIFTY FIVE YEARS then maybe there's no merit to the accusations?

I hope that the Texas CPS isn't so incompetent that they cant figure out a supposedly systemic Child Abuse case in FIFTY FIVE YEARS...

[Old Ironsights]

I see I'm in the minority. I'm good with that.

I have yet to see any Schutzenstaffel tactics in this case. Except of course by the brainwashing pedophiles. They are pretty good when it comes to picking on kids. Now we get to see how well they stack up against the citizens of Texas in a court of law.

Mac - before you convict someone, you need proof. You have convicted them without proof, and that is sad.

OI,
Conversely, aren't some convicting law enforcement before they have the proof against them? I don't think any of us know enough yet do we? These are some sick puppies based on the testimony of a number of women/girls who have escaped from Jeff's compounds. If these men are having sex(forced or no, doesn't mater) in my country with 12- 14 year olds then they need to go away. It's rape either way. Time will give us more info and hopefully we can all look at it objectively, before we convict either side.

And this needed to be done with a Raid? All it takes for credible, unimpeachable evidence is a decent Rape Kit or Paternity Test.

Why was a Raid necessary? Maybe because after 55 years of not being able to get them on anything they are desperate for the Media Spotlight?

Oh, and BTW, you CAN'T "convict either side".

One side (and it ain't the Govt) is "Innocent until proven guilty." Period. I don't care how heinous the accusation.

[sore shoulder]

1) I agree with and support polygamy being illegal. I don't care about whether it was done in the past. I don't care whether it is part of their religion. So long as it is illegal, don't do it (and don't try to get around it by having multiple "spiritual" marriages).

2) Yep, crime through and through. One cannot simply establish his religion and then form an isolated community where the girls (and boys) don't know any better and then say things about how the victims don't mind or even like the set up. It is pure brainwashing. Plus, when the boys and girls cannot even leave the private community and interact with others there is no way that the crime can ever be reported. Religion should never be a shield for criminal behavior.

3) Yep, they should. Now we don't know many of the facts other than that the raid was allegedly initiated by a call from a girl saying what had happened to her. I don't know the basis for everyone else being detained - and I doubt that anyone else here does either. However, I do not assume that it is illegal as some others here do. It does not surprise me one bit that she did not jump out and say, "it was me that called!"

I will point out that the difficulty in these situations is that the brainwashed girls are not likely to disclose the truth about their lives even when given the opportunity.
Michael in NH

I would like to point out that none of these allegations have been proven. I would like to see a warrant with the sworn testimony of even 1 witness to any of the assumptions you have made. If there is not 1 witness, what we are witnessing is the outrageous violation of half Amendments in The Constitution.

[Old Ironsights]

Government & Liberal/Media defintion of a "Victim":

"You're a Victim because I say you are - and someone must pay!"

Rational definition(s) of a Victim:

The person standing over the bleeding corpse of their victimizer.

[AmBraCol]

First, let me congratulate folks on keeping this fairly civil. I just read through most of the posts and so far no overt name calling and such. Maybe we're growing up and learning to "fight fair" in our forum dustups.

Next, there are several points I'm sure we can agree on.

The sexual abuse of children is despicable and worthy of the severest punishment.

Using religion to shield yourself from scrutiny for immoral activity should not be allowed.

People should be considered innocent until proven guilty.

The main street media is a less than reliable source for facts.

This case can be looked at from a variety of angles, to say the least. Was it a good call to move in and separate children from their parents? Well, if the parents really ARE harming their children then the argument can be made that it is a GOOD thing. But then, who's to argue what is harm? Just for argument's sake, I'd like to see a lot of "permissive" parents divested of their parental rights. The harm they do their children by their allowing them to do whatever the heck they please is harm not only to the children but to society as well. But they would remove MY children because I use corporal punishment when necessary.

Only time will tell now that the deed is done (doing). It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Polygynous practices are OK in our society - as long as you don't actually marry any of them. That is something I find hilarious in a sad sort of way - as long as you don't marry them you're free to fornicate at will. Have as many "girlfriends" as you want, father as many bastards as you desire - but don't dare marry their mothers or you'll do time. We truly have a mixed up society in which certain behaviors are given a pass while others are castigated severely.

The original post in this thread DOES give room for thought. How long until they come for us? Slowly we are also being painted in the same way. Our hobby and lifestyle are being called anachronistic, outdated, obsolete, undesirable. The FLDS group may actually be engaged in activities which should be castigated severely - but the way they are being painted carefully in the MSM should ring alarm bells. Go after the actual crime - not the "out of touch with modern life" ideas they are purported to have. If there is indeed pedophilia going on then a stop should be put to it - but according to the foundations upon which our nation was built. There's a touch of lynch mob mentality going on and that's what's frightening. Lynch mobs do not act according to cold and balanced reason - the feed on hysteria. And if we allow hysteria to rule then it's only a matter of time until it is our neck on the block...

[Old Ironsights]

First, let me congratulate folks on keeping this fairly civil. I just read through most of the posts and so far no overt name calling and such. Maybe we're growing up and learning to "fight fair" in our forum dustups.

Next, there are several points I'm sure we can agree on.

The sexual abuse of children is despicable and worthy of the severest punishment.

Using religion to shield yourself from scrutiny for immoral activity should not be allowed.

People should be considered innocent until proven guilty.

The main street media is a less than reliable source for facts.

This case can be looked at from a variety of angles, to say the least. Was it a good call to move in and separate children from their parents? Well, if the parents really ARE harming their children then the argument can be made that it is a GOOD thing. But then, who's to argue what is harm? Just for argument's sake, I'd like to see a lot of "permissive" parents divested of their parental rights. The harm they do their children by their allowing them to do whatever the heck they please is harm not only to the children but to society as well. But they would remove MY children because I use corporal punishment when necessary.

Only time will tell now that the deed is done (doing). It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Polygynous practices are OK in our society - as long as you don't actually marry any of them. That is something I find hilarious in a sad sort of way - as long as you don't marry them you're free to fornicate at will. Have as many "girlfriends" as you want, father as many bastards as you desire - but don't dare marry their mothers or you'll do time. We truly have a mixed up society in which certain behaviors are given a pass while others are castigated severely.

The original post in this thread DOES give room for thought. How long until they come for us? Slowly we are also being painted in the same way. Our hobby and lifestyle are being called anachronistic, outdated, obsolete, undesirable. The FLDS group may actually be engaged in activities which should be castigated severely - but the way they are being painted carefully in the MSM should ring alarm bells. Go after the actual crime - not the "out of touch with modern life" ideas they are purported to have. If there is indeed pedophilia going on then a stop should be put to it - but according to the foundations upon which our nation was built. There's a touch of lynch mob mentality going on and that's what's frightening. Lynch mobs do not act according to cold and balanced reason - the feed on hysteria. And if we allow hysteria to rule then it's only a matter of time until it is our neck on the block...

Bless you my son. I hereby grant you indulgences worth 300yrs off of the Purgatory you will no doubt endure for being sensible.

(Wait, I'm not Pope... can I do that... ? )

[Kismet]

1) I agree with and support polygamy being illegal. I don't care about whether it was done in the past. I don't care whether it is part of their religion. So long as it is illegal, don't do it (and don't try to get around it by having multiple "spiritual" marriages).

2) Yep, crime through and through. One cannot simply establish his religion and then form an isolated community where the girls (and boys) don't know any better and then say things about how the victims don't mind or even like the set up. It is pure brainwashing. Plus, when the boys and girls cannot even leave the private community and interact with others there is no way that the crime can ever be reported. Religion should never be a shield for criminal behavior.

3) Yep, they should. Now we don't know many of the facts other than that the raid was allegedly initiated by a call from a girl saying what had happened to her. I don't know the basis for everyone else being detained - and I doubt that anyone else here does either. However, I do not assume that it is illegal as some others here do. It does not surprise me one bit that she did not jump out and say, "it was me that called!"

I will point out that the difficulty in these situations is that the brainwashed girls are not likely to disclose the truth about their lives even when given the opportunity.
Michael in NH

I would like to point out that none of these allegations have been proven. I would like to see a warrant with the sworn testimony of even 1 witness to any of the assumptions you have made. If there is not 1 witness, what we are witnessing is the outrageous violation of half Amendments in The Constitution.

Actually, I have stated no assumptions. I started with three premises, with which I believe others agree. (Do you actually disagree with any of the premises?) Then, I stated my views on those premises given that the raid was initiated on essentially the allegations of polygamy and sex with a girl under 16.

As I said, "Given the challenges in even investigating such a case, I am willing to accept the phone call that was allegedly made as enough to start most of this investigation." What I believed would be understood by others was that I believe the legal process should be allowed to work.

Some of you are lamenting the rush to judgment against the FLDS, the same could be said of those of you rushing to judge the government. (And if in response you are itching to start typing Waco, Wenatchee, or whatever, I will simply type Warren Steed Jeffs.)

Michael in NH

[Old Ironsights]

...(And if in response you are itching to start typing Waco, Wenatchee, or whatever, I will simply type Warren Steed Jeffs.)

And I will retort: What is one of the founding principles of out Judicial System, Councilor?

"It is better for a thousand guilty men to go free than one innocent man to be punished."

Where does that come into consideration in your analysis?

I honestly don't care about Warren Steed Jeffs. I care about the INNOCENT being punished because of the guilty. And that seems to be happening a lot.

[sore shoulder]

1) I agree with and support polygamy being illegal. I don't care about whether it was done in the past. I don't care whether it is part of their religion. So long as it is illegal, don't do it (and don't try to get around it by having multiple "spiritual" marriages).

2) Yep, crime through and through. One cannot simply establish his religion and then form an isolated community where the girls (and boys) don't know any better and then say things about how the victims don't mind or even like the set up. It is pure brainwashing. Plus, when the boys and girls cannot even leave the private community and interact with others there is no way that the crime can ever be reported. Religion should never be a shield for criminal behavior.

3) Yep, they should. Now we don't know many of the facts other than that the raid was allegedly initiated by a call from a girl saying what had happened to her. I don't know the basis for everyone else being detained - and I doubt that anyone else here does either. However, I do not assume that it is illegal as some others here do. It does not surprise me one bit that she did not jump out and say, "it was me that called!"

I will point out that the difficulty in these situations is that the brainwashed girls are not likely to disclose the truth about their lives even when given the opportunity.
Michael in NH

I would like to point out that none of these allegations have been proven. I would like to see a warrant with the sworn testimony of even 1 witness to any of the assumptions you have made. If there is not 1 witness, what we are witnessing is the outrageous violation of half Amendments in The Constitution.

Actually, I have stated no assumptions. I started with three premises, with which I believe others agree. Michael in NH

The assumption was inferred by the enumerated premises, otherwise why enumerate them? I definately agree that any of those crimes are and should be punishable, as should rape, murder, slavery, cannibalism, etc., none of which have been attested to by a sworn statement from an eyewitness, to include the original allegations.

[handirifle]

I see I'm in the minority. I'm good with that.

I have yet to see any Schutzenstaffel tactics in this case. Except of course by the brainwashing pedophiles. They are pretty good when it comes to picking on kids. Now we get to see how well they stack up against the citizens of Texas in a court of law.

Well count us as 2 then!

[piller]

And I'm still wondering why the Drive By Media had to try this case in the court of public opinion while the LEOs were still gathering evidence to see if a crime had been committed. I don't trust the media to tell the truth.

[El Mac]

I was very curious what the response would be around here when this subject hit. It seems we have the Libertarians that assume the government, facilitated by the MSM, is violating everyone's rights; we have anti-pedophiles (though hopefully we are all anti-pedophiles); and, we have a dash of religious supporters that will give the FLDS a free pass because they are acting in the name of their religion.

While I'm sure I will not bring harmony, I have a few ideas that I think everyone would agree with:
1) Polygamy is illegal.
2) Adult men having sex with 12-15 year old girls is a crime.
3) The government should obey the Constitution and Texas law.

So, looking at those points, here are my thoughts.

1) I agree with and support polygamy being illegal. I don't care about whether it was done in the past. I don't care whether it is part of their religion. So long as it is illegal, don't do it (and don't try to get around it by having multiple "spiritual" marriages).

2) Yep, crime through and through. One cannot simply establish his religion and then form an isolated community where the girls (and boys) don't know any better and then say things about how the victims don't mind or even like the set up. It is pure brainwashing. Plus, when the boys and girls cannot even leave the private community and interact with others there is no way that the crime can ever be reported. Religion should never be a shield for criminal behavior.

3) Yep, they should. Now we don't know many of the facts other than that the raid was allegedly initiated by a call from a girl saying what had happened to her. I don't know the basis for everyone else being detained - and I doubt that anyone else here does either. However, I do not assume that it is illegal as some others here do. It does not surprise me one bit that she did not jump out and say, "it was me that called!"

I will point out that the difficulty in these situations is that the brainwashed girls are not likely to disclose the truth about their lives even when given the opportunity. Given the challenges in even investigating such a case, I am willing to accept the phone call that was allegedly made as enough to start most of this investigation. (I don't know enough about what is happening to people once the search and investigation was carried out to say one way or the other what should be happening with everyone now.)

Yes, the State wields immense power that can be abused. But, it is also that power should be used to prevent criminal behavior on a mass scale. Is the FLDS marginalized? Darn right, but so are lots of other groups whose leaders are felons and that have foundational beliefs that are illegal. Just because Utah and Arizona have have refused to stand up to the FLDS doesn't mean that the rest of the nation should.

Michael in NH

Amen brother.

[El Mac]

You see, I CAN call them anything.

Not exactly. Not without consequences - as least not when made outside of a psudonym. Until they have been PROVEN to "be" paedos/molesters, calling them such is SLANDER. In print, it is LIBEL.

That is why not even the press will call them those things. They have been ACCUSED. They are ALLEGED to have committed. But, until convicted THEY are NOT.

I don't convict them, but I can call them what I want. How do I know that? Because I just did.

This is still a free country.

Hasn't been since FDR.

Yawn. Can we get a little more off topic?

But it means NOTHING until a court has decided...so let them do their job.

Agreed. So stop Slandering them until all is said and done, eh?

Nah. I think I'll stick to my guns. Any group that follows a convicted child rapist as their "prophet" (barf) deserves the name attachment.

That is, unless you are worried the truth will come out??? Hmmm.....

Ya mean like the TRUTH that vindicated 43 some people in Wenatchee - after several of them had already spent YEARS behind bars because they were intimidated into copping a plea because they had no assets to finance a defense against obscene public outcry based upon Lies, Perjury and Media Bather?

My my...yet another drift...

I wonder if you have noticed how GLEEFULLY the MSM has glommed onto the word "Fundamentalist" in the FLDS name... a word that they have hertofore used primarily in conjunction with Mainstream Christian Denominations and Islamic Radicals.

Isn't it curious? MSM doesn't like Christianity at all and lo and behold the word they have been using to describe Christians is suddenly linked with "ritual Paedophilia" and accused Paedophiles.

Yeah, I SOOOO believe the MSM's take.

I frankly don't bother with what the MSM has to say. I sleep well at night...sticks and stones. Evidently OI, you must put stock in what they have to say. (Which I don't REALLY think you do and so I also don't see why you seem to care about what they say. They've always been against us 2A types with a few notable exceptions such as John Stossel...but I digress.)

[Old Ironsights]

You see, I CAN call them anything.

Not exactly. Not without consequences - as least not when made outside of a psudonym. Until they have been PROVEN to "be" paedos/molesters, calling them such is SLANDER. In print, it is LIBEL.

That is why not even the press will call them those things. They have been ACCUSED. They are ALLEGED to have committed. But, until convicted THEY are NOT.

I don't convict them, but I can call them what I want. How do I know that? Because I just did.

This is still a free country.

Hasn't been since FDR.

Yawn. Can we get a little more off topic?

But it means NOTHING until a court has decided...so let them do their job.

Agreed. So stop Slandering them until all is said and done, eh?

Nah. I think I'll stick to my guns. Any group that follows a convicted child rapist as their "prophet" (barf) deserves the name attachment.

That is, unless you are worried the truth will come out??? Hmmm.....

Ya mean like the TRUTH that vindicated 43 some people in Wenatchee - after several of them had already spent YEARS behind bars because they were intimidated into copping a plea because they had no assets to finance a defense against obscene public outcry based upon Lies, Perjury and Media Bather?

My my...yet another drift...

Why is it a drift? It directly corelates. The Wenatchee case was "argued" in the Media and by people saying things much as you are doing, and it was all proved false.

As someone falsely accused once said, "Where do they go to get their good name back"?

I wonder if you have noticed how GLEEFULLY the MSM has glommed onto the word "Fundamentalist" in the FLDS name... a word that they have hertofore used primarily in conjunction with Mainstream Christian Denominations and Islamic Radicals.

Isn't it curious? MSM doesn't like Christianity at all and lo and behold the word they have been using to describe Christians is suddenly linked with "ritual Paedophilia" and accused Paedophiles.

Yeah, I SOOOO believe the MSM's take.

I frankly don't bother with what the MSM has to say. I sleep well at night...sticks and stones. Evidently OI, you must put stock in what they have to say. (Which I don't REALLY think you do and so I also don't see why you seem to care about what they say. They've always been against us 2A types with a few notable exceptions such as John Stossel...but I digress.)

And yet, here you are sucking up every dreg they are spewing about these people. Why?

Why do you refuse to even look at the coorelation between this witch hunt, the ones that preceed it, and the ones that will inevetably follow?

Innocent until proved guilty - not Witch Burnings.

[El Mac]

Innocent until proved guilty - not Witch Burnings.

Well now, we finally agree. Like I said, let the courts do their job. The truth will come out.

[Old Time Hunter]

Wow...very interesting comments. Both swayed me in regards to moral implications and brings up a question that probably will never be answered: What constitutes a balance between social perceived morality, personal morality, accusation of a crime (against mors or law?), and freedom? It scares me to hear that we live in a country that the perception of immorality holds more water than the facts, and that people are guilty until proven innocent...but my moral values in regards to the innuendos pertaining to preying on children makes me want to protect the children from even the perception of wrong doing. Boy, this is a tough one. If we really lived in a democratic society, I probably would have voted to have a little more to go on than one phone call. I am afraid the phone call was a catalyst to feed the frenzy of prejudice against a socially deviant lifestyle instead of evidence of an actual crime being committed. Does this mean that I can make an accusation about my neighbor to the BATF that he is cruel to his wife because he makes her wear ugly dresses, and the BATF will storm his house and confiscate his firearm collection (of which I am jealous of!)?

Unfortunately we will never know the real truth regarding any immorality, because the powers that be will never admit to wrong doing on either side. If this is a crime against religious definitions, then it has no place in the legal tennants, but in the social tennants???

[Hobie]

May I ask, why are these polygamists different from Muslim polygamists? Why so much antipathy for these people (including the victimized women) and none for the Muslim community some of whom are doing the same things?

[AmBraCol]

May I ask, why are these polygamists different from Muslim polygamists? Why so much antipathy for these people (including the victimized women) and none for the Muslim community some of whom are doing the same things?

That one's easy, Hobie. Because they (to a VERY SLIGHT DEGREE) use the name "christian" and even worse, "fundamentalist" together with it. And everyone KNOWS that the Muslims are just a bunch of misunderstood peaceniks who'd never harm ANYONE and all that talk about muslim polygamy is just Fascist Bush Warmongering blather. And don't mention pedophilia in the same breath as muslim or you'll be guilty of racism in the worst degree!!!

[sarcasm off]

back to work

[Quick Karl]

Somehow I don't think rescueing underage children from pedophiles is "hitlerish". Actually, its been long overdue.

I think back to the good ol' days when a few Rangers would have rode in and shot all of the pedophiles and case closed.

Lawyers. That is the problem with the "law" nowadays. We are inundated by them to the point that we now have "analysis paralysis".

Well said!

What the people of our country need is a good swift kick in their fat lazy know-it-all BUTTS.

The problem with our society today is that we have too many disgusting fat lazy creeps sitting in their lazy-boy blowing hot-air about everything under the sun but they keep voting for their 'entitlements', which empowers the tyrants they complain about every god-forsaken moment of their pathetic absurd little lives.

Anyone that can defend that cult's pedophilia on any imaginable level should be shot directly in the face right along with the pedophiles. Young teenaged girls being forced to shack-up with disgusting old perverts is NOT religious freedom.

And if people did what’s right, that place would have been closed down long before the G-men got there, so instead of whining about the government, next time you see something going on that ain’t right, put the fricken beer away, turn off the boob-tube you use as an excuse for an opinion/education, and step up and do something about it.

Ya. that's right, I said it.

[Old Ironsights]

Carl, no one is defending paedophilia. At all.

Too many people are focusing on the "little picture" - i.e. hating the very idea of the accusation so much that they are willing to excuse any abuse of GOVERNMENT power.

What we are Defending are Constitutional Rights and questioning the Governmen't aggressive stance - taken ONLY on the basis of an anonymous phone call.

Here's the Big Picture - and how it relates to Gun Owners: If these people are innocent of the crimes for which they are being accused, then the Government has dramatically and unequivocably overstepped its bounds.

To not call them on it is to give them permission to do it to you - based on nothing but a phone call.

OTOH, if they ARE guilty, then the Government will claim that their tactics are Justified - and they can do it to you - based on nothing but a phone call.

That is the "Big Picture" here.

[Quick Karl]

Carl, no one is defending paedophilia. At all.

Too many people are focusing on the "little picture" - i.e. hating the very idea of the accusation so much that they are willing to excuse any abuse of GOVERNMENT power.

What we are Defending are Constitutional Rights and questioning the Governmen't aggressive stance - taken ONLY on the basis of an anonymous phone call.

Here's the Big Picture - and how it relates to Gun Owners: If these people are innocent of the crimes for which they are being accused, then the Government has dramatically and unequivocably overstepped its bounds.

To not call them on it is to give them permission to do it to you - based on nothing but a phone call.

OTOH, if they ARE guilty, then the Government will claim that their tactics are Justified - and they can do it to you - based on nothing but a phone call.

That is the "Big Picture" here.

So what are we, as a society, supposed to do - sit back and wait till the cult films the pedophilia and posts it on YouTube?

What you are implying is that every last member of Law Enforcement is in on the conspiracy to crush our freedom and that just defies logic.

[Old Ironsights]

So what are we, as a society, supposed to do - sit back and wait till the cult films the pedophilia and posts it on YouTube?

What you are implying is that every last member of Law Enforcement is in on the conspiracy to crush our freedom and that just defies logic.

No, I'm saying you need more than a phone call. You need EVIDENCE.

I suppose I could just call up the BATFE and claim you have a Bomb Lab in your basement, but other than to get your door kicked in, what would it prove?

A Rape Kit is Evidence. A Paternity Test is Evidence. A phone call is heresay.

You may want to read a bit more of the things I've posted. But then, ignoring them does make it easier to maintain righteous indignation.

[AmBraCol]

So what are we, as a society, supposed to do - sit back and wait till the cult films the pedophilia and posts it on YouTube?

Not at all, but on the other hand, one of the most frustrating things is that the good guys (should) fight clean. Our society was set up to avoid abuse of the individual by the community. We've not always lived that way, but that was the goal - to allow for people to live freely, as unencumbered by the weight of the collective government as possible. This means that sometimes the bad guys seem to "win one". If there is pedophilia going on then it needs to be dealt with. The problem is, folks forget that the world is an imperfect place and that we've no need for further abuses by law enforcement types. One of the founders of our nation stated quite wisely that our constitution is suited for the governance of a moral and godly populace and that it is entirely unsuited for the governance of any other. Well, we're swiftly sliding towards the "any other" daily. If we want to prevent the alleged activities of the FLDS then we'd better get busy helping folks to learn to live in a godly way.

On the other hand, why all the chest pounding and torch waving over the FLDS group - when even worse is going on in our inner cities on a daily basis. There are thousands of underage girls in our ghettos that are being used by adult males daily. And yet, where's the rush to "protect" them in the same way that the FLDS children are being "protected"?

I do not share the FLDS world view nor approve of their alleged practices. However, I can also not condone a rush to judgment = especially when the same type of practices are common enough in less concentrated and less known groups.

Sometimes the good guys seem to be fighting insurmountable odds. That's fine - because as long as they don't become that which they are fighting they will win in the end.

[Old Ironsights]

I'm not sure they want to listen to us Paul. It's far easier to hate and lust for vengeance, regardless of the damage it does to the foundations of our system.

[YellowHorse]

Erecting fences around 'temples' for another. Controlling access to all media (tv, newspapers, books, etc) for another. (Funny, most of you guys would be screaming to high heaven here if the "gov't" came into your houses and started unplugging computers, taking away your books, and so on...but its ok for these pimps to do it?)

Replace the word "temples" with "schools" and you have "maistream acceptable society"

[Quick Karl]

So what are we, as a society, supposed to do - sit back and wait till the cult films the pedophilia and posts it on YouTube?

What you are implying is that every last member of Law Enforcement is in on the conspiracy to crush our freedom and that just defies logic.

No, I'm saying you need more than a phone call. You need EVIDENCE.

I suppose I could just call up the BATFE and claim you have a Bomb Lab in your basement, but other than to get your door kicked in, what would it prove?

A Rape Kit is Evidence. A Paternity Test is Evidence. A phone call is heresay.

You may want to read a bit more of the things I've posted. But then, ignoring them does make it easier to maintain righteous indignation.

So where did you get your EVIDENCE that "a phone call" was all it took to get the cops out there?

[El Mac]

No, I'm saying you need more than a phone call. You need EVIDENCE.

Oh really? Ever heard of 911?

And I can guarantee you, there is much more on the table than a phone call. Guaranteed. It will come out.

[El Mac]

May I ask, why are these polygamists different from Muslim polygamists? Why so much antipathy for these people (including the victimized women) and none for the Muslim community some of whom are doing the same things?

I would argue that they aren't any different! I don't give a good darn who the hell you are or what "religion" you want to hide behind. Abuse of women and children AND polygamy should be expunged from our country ASAP. I'm hoping to see the death penalty finally approved for child rape.

Let the cards fall where they may. One law for every swinging charley. Now wouldn't that be a daisy?

[Old Ironsights]

Never mind. Y'all get back to hating and witch burning. I'll just sit here and watch the Constitution burn with it.

Have fun with them Paul.

[Quick Karl]

I'm hoping to see the death penalty finally approved for child rape.

I don't drink, Sir, but it would be my honor to buy you a drink if you do.

[JohnnyReb]

Mac, I have asked several questions of you and have not received any response.

In a Nutshell here is my problem with the action:
Without probable cause, the government has detained 416 citizens of this country for more than 10 days without due process.

The first response will be "without probable cause'? The allegations of abuse of one 16 year old by her husband is not justification for the scope of this action.

An analogy would be that: a trooper was told that a certain blue car (16 year old girl) heading north on I85(located on the compound) in GA contained drugs (sexual abuse) therefore, the GA patrol stops ALL cars(all children in the area) going north on I85(the compound). The cars(children) are impounded for 10 days with no charges against the drivers(parents) while the patrol investigates everything about the vehicles to see if SOME charges can be filed.

A stolen gun is reported to be located in your hometown....therefore the police confiscate all guns to sort thru to find the stolen one......

A gun was used to murder a child......why not confiscate all guns in a given area and test fire for a ballistics match? Under your argument of let the courts decide Mac......this would be perfectly acceptable. If you are not guilty, what do you have to fear? Let the government look...the innocent have nothing to hide.

[Quick Karl]

Never mind. Y'all get back to hating and witch burning. I'll just sit here and watch the Constitution burn with it.

Have fun with them Paul.

I confess, I hate everyone that uses religion to justify the absurd, and frankly I think religion, or more precisely, how men twist religion to suit their own needs, and try to force their beliefs on others while dismissing the other’s beliefs, is one of the primary dysfunctions of our society, and the world.

People are flawed and allowed to make mistakes, like “oops I slipped and fell and somehow my thing wound-up inside a teenaged girl...â€

[Quick Karl]

The allegations of abuse of one 16 year old by her husband is not justification for the scope of this action.

"16-year old girl and her husband"? (notice no mention of the "husband's" age)

And you can't see anything wrong with that sentence???

And you still PRESUME that wherever you dug-up the "single source allegation" has more credibility than any other...

God, we're doomed as a society.

[YellowHorse]

Never mind. Y'all get back to hating and witch burning. I'll just sit here and watch the Constitution burn with it.

Have fun with them Paul.

I learned a while back that these "witch burners" have long abandoned logic and, hence, reason and critical thinking does not impress them. There is no point in debating a point with them, except maybe in a public venue such as this forum where all can read of their lunacy

I know of false prosecution first hand as my family has been on the receiving end of such slander. I know, as well as these vindictive acusers know, that if you claim certain abuses against a person, the authorities will prosecute and destroy that person in their self righteous hate and loathing of the false witness against that person.

[JohnnyReb]

The allegations of abuse of one 16 year old by her husband is not justification for the scope of this action.

"16-year old girl and her husband"? (notice no mention of the "husband's" age)

And you can't see anything wrong with that sentence???

And you still PRESUME that wherever you dug-up the "single source allegation" has more credibility than any other...

God, we're doomed as a society.

Did I justify the conduct toward the 16 year old? That matter should be investigated. Just as a vehicle with drugs on I85, and the murder of a child with a gun.

Why do you ignore the real questions of the post?

[505stevec]

As an investigator that investigates Child Sexual Abuse. The law is the protector of the child and steps in for THEIR rights first. Quit thinking that the parents right come first. who speaks for the children except the law. It is so easy to sit and judge the government for taking these children for pretection. This is the least the government should do at this point. No one is talking arrest. As a LEO my job is to place the child in protective custody if I think there may be a danger.

[505stevec]

Mac, I have asked several questions of you and have not received any response.

In a Nutshell here is my problem with the action:
Without probable cause, the government has detained 416 citizens of this country for more than 10 days without due process.

The first response will be "without probable cause'? The allegations of abuse of one 16 year old by her husband is not justification for the scope of this action.

An analogy would be that: a trooper was told that a certain blue car (16 year old girl) heading north on I85(located on the compound) in GA contained drugs (sexual abuse) therefore, the GA patrol stops ALL cars(all children in the area) going north on I85(the compound). The cars(children) are impounded for 10 days with no charges against the drivers(parents) while the patrol investigates everything about the vehicles to see if SOME charges can be filed.

A stolen gun is reported to be located in your hometown....therefore the police confiscate all guns to sort thru to find the stolen one......

A gun was used to murder a child......why not confiscate all guns in a given area and test fire for a ballistics match? Under your argument of let the courts decide Mac......this would be perfectly acceptable. If you are not guilty, what do you have to fear? Let the government look...the innocent have nothing to hide.

1. the children are not detained. they are in protective custody pending the outcome of the investigation. Remember these children too have rights as citizens. The reason all children were taken is because with one allegation of abuse in a small confined community all should be protected. In my jurisdaiction if there are allegations of sexual abuse in a household and the perp lives there, ALL children are seperated from him/her. Not necessarily taken from the home but seperated. This is only a small fraction of what is expected in the protection of our children. As far as the pedophile thing. There are many perpetrators against children that are not pedophhiles. Do not get cought up with semantics. Children are especially vulnerable in a closed environment in which there are multi-family situations. Beleive me, adults will lie for other adults if it will upset the "family atmosphere" They will constantly tell the child that it is they who are lying. It is pretty disgusting. These children need to have the opportunity for protection first as THIS may be the only opportunity for them before they are victimized.

[El Mac]

JohnnyReb,

You presume you already know everything about the case...you've read all the police reports, had a look at any physical/forensic evidence, read all the reports provided by the informants, perhaps even listened to all of the wire evidence, read any sealed indictments that may exist, etc....

[C. Cash]

JohnnyReb,

You presume you already know everything about the case...you've read all the police reports, had a look at any physical/forensic evidence, read all the reports provided by the informants, perhaps even listened to all of the wire evidence, read any sealed indictments that may exist, etc....

+1 to El Mac and 505 steve's post above. I think this is the bigger and more correct picture, at least until we have all the facts.

[505stevec]

A question; How many of you dads out there victimize your children sexually? How many of you think of a small child as sexy? That is sick you say? yes but think of this. In society today there are sex offenders of children living right next to you and you do not even know it. Many of these cases are never reported to Law Enforcement. Who stands for these children? NO one unless it is reported that is who! Law Enforcement may only have one opportunity to do this right. If the ball is dropped this child may end up being victimized into adulthood. A second question; Should we leave these children in a potentially abusive environment until the investigation is complete? Would you want your child, grandchild or other family member to stay there? I doubt it. As conservative as most of us are we know who our future is.

[YellowHorse]

As an investigator that investigates Child Sexual Abuse. The law is the protector of the child and steps in for THEIR rights first. Quit thinking that the parents right come first. who speaks for the children except the law. It is so easy to sit and judge the government for taking these children for pretection. This is the least the government should do at this point. No one is talking arrest. As a LEO my job is to place the child in protective custody if I think there may be a danger.

What about the rights of any children of the accused?

What happens when a teacher, the father of children is vindictively accused of sexual misconduct and his job is terminated for the alligations? This father now has a false record of being arrested for such alligations (was never arrested), has a false record of his children being siezed by child protective services (they were never taken from the family, nor was there any visit from them), can not get another teaching position because of this false record against him.

The accuser claimed not only she was a victim, but named two other girls as such. When named "victims" were questioned, both said the claim was false. The accuser then dropped it and it never went to court.

At first it was a relief that it was all over, but now have come to find that since the case was not recorded through the court system, they have no proof of the aligations being false. What would you believe: A background record or the persons word that the incidenses on background record are false?

This family is now losing their home and are having to sell off everything they own and do odd jobs just to survive.

This is not the only incidense I have seen personally, and I have seen it go wrong so many times and can not recall one off the top of my head that has gone right.

[505stevec]

Sir, You are talking about the system failing in this incident. I have seen this also. It is horible that this happens. The failing in your scenario is the courts not completing their work in the false allegations. The child should have been charged for False Reporting even if dismissed at the end. The teacher's attorney should have filed motions for dismissal or directed verdict. This would have been recorded. However, this incident and others like it do not nagate societies responsibility to protect the children. Children, elderly, mentally handicapped are the most victimized individuals in our society. We as a group are always talking "rights of the individual". We use this in our argument for "The right to keep and bear arms." This concept does not stop there. We must realize that no matter whether it is convenient or not we must treat all equally under the law.

NO. this does not always work but the alternative would be much worse.

[El Mac]

It ain't a perfect world. You do the best you can with the information given.

[YellowHorse]

the children are not detained. they are in protective custody pending the outcome of the investigation

is that supossed to be good?
I have seen children coerced into saying things that are not true.
I have seen children abused when the so called "protective custody" places them into "temporary safe houses."

I do not work within any agency that would put me in close contact with CPS, or any legal venue. These are cases, all of them, that family, friends and even ourselves have personally been on the receiving end of.
I, nor my family or friends are not affiliated with any "cult" thereby there is no media coverage for us

[505stevec]

If you are asking for sympathy you have it. My point is that We as law enforcement dont know you from Adam. It is better to err on the side of protecting the child than protecting a potential abusers sense of embarrassment. I cannot answer for the rest of society but as an Investigator that does this work every day I will tell you this. Most children under 12 will not lie about abuse. 13 to 18 years old the incidents of deception rises but we still have a duty to treat all as if true. Wouldn't you expect the same courtesy as a victim?

[deerwhacker444]

.
I heard on the news that the County Sheriff had been working with an "informant" inside the FLDS for 4 years, nobody has mentioned that yet. Here's a link:

Informant..!

Maybe this search was NOT about the alleged phone call at all, but about information that the informant has given. I'm sure we're not hearing the whole story.

Maybe he had specifics that were given to the police to make them concerned for all children living there.

I think the the "phone call" sounded suspicious from the get go, but the informant might have given them specific info about an adult male and a female child.

If the informant is real and credible, then I can understand why the raid took place, although I might or might not agree with it.

[YellowHorse]

Sir, You are talking about the system failing in this incident. I have seen this also. It is horible that this happens. The failing in your scenario is the courts not completing their work in the false allegations. The child should have been charged for False Reporting even if dismissed at the end. The teacher's attorney should have filed motions for dismissal or directed verdict. This would have been recorded. However, this incident and others like it do not nagate societies responsibility to protect the children. Children, elderly, mentally handicapped are the most victimized individuals in our society. We as a group are always talking "rights of the individual". We use this in our argument for "The right to keep and bear arms." This concept does not stop there. We must realize that no matter whether it is convenient or not we must treat all equally under the law.

NO. this does not always work but the alternative would be much worse.

This family is barely able to make enough money to feed themselves and you say they should spend money in filing charges?

The attorney did his job, there is proof of him doing his job, yet there is no record of it in the court system.

I admit I may be overly bitter, but I, my family and friends have all been on the recieving end of this system and i'm here to tell you the system sucks

There needs to be protection of the accused's identity and reputation (same anonymity afforded to the accuser) until, and only until the alegations are proven.

BTW, I am a woman

edited for spelling error