Grandpa's lead level

[earlmck]

We had a little emotional flurry around these parts a few weeks ago. Seems a granddaughter who is a new mom (one of the fiercely protective type!) took the baby to the pediatrician for a check-up. He quizzed her about firearms/ammo in the home. Her hubby is one of the good guys -- he shoots with me regularly, occasionally been known to do a little reloading.

So the pediatrician really alerted to that and told granddaughter that there was great risk of lead exposure to the baby from being around people who reload. Well.... guess who makes a regular practice of putting grandkids (which around these parts include a mix of grands and greats) to work at the loading bench.

So... I ended up promising not to do any such thing until after I had been tested for lead levels in my blood, and if those levels were high we were not going to have mommas happy about their urchins hanging with grandpa at the loading bench.

Now I figured I might be at some risk of elevated levels since I have never been careful, other than to make sure I cast bullets with the metal at normal temps and not super hot which I had long ago heard could lead to significant lead exposure. So I have packed 22 shells in my pocket as a kid and reloaded for over 50 years and cast bullets for almost 50 years and most of my shooting has been with these cast bullets. And old dummy here has never worried about washing hands before eating after reloading and often have a little snack and cup of coffee at the bench.

Results of the test? Acceptable levels 0 to 10 ug/dL. I came in at a 3. So low end of normal I would say. And I would think that if I am showing a low level of lead exposure this deal of worrying about reloading giving significant exposure is ... overblown? horsepucky? Some such.

I will, however, keep the kids from eating with unwashed hands after reloading. We'll wash and then snack henceforth.

[AJMD429]

Good to teach kids 'sanitary' habits for all activities, reloading included, however "pediatricians" in general are the most ill-informed yet arrogant hoplophobes you'll ever meet.

There are many exceptions, but most of them are typical "academics" who spent their whole young lives grooming for college, and never doing 'real' things (especially rural ones) like hunting or shooting to any significant degree. They (of course) tend to really love children, and be fierce advocates for the health and safety of kids (of course, as they should be). But too many "academics" assume that just because they attain some pinnacle of knowledge in one area, means they are brilliant-beyond-belief, and are therefore among The Anointed, who owe it to we The Unwashed, to set us straight, and tell us the best priorities, family values, religious beliefs, political philosophies, and so on.

"Gun Control" is so often brought into "Health Care" under the umbrella of "Public Health" that they take it for granted that as brilliant physicians they should therefore pontificate on all things 'gun related'. The kicker is that since they don't particularly like or understand 'guns', they don't bother to read any complex literature on the topic, and just rely on the Brady press releases that the New England Journal of Medicine publishes and calls them 'studies'.

Recommended reading -

• Thomas Sowell - The Vision of the Anointed
  Don B. Kates (et al) - Guns and Public Health - epidemic of violence or pandemic of propaganda?

[Mescalero]

EARL,
Always good to hear from you.
There is a lot of real evidence out there that suggests that our young ones are overly susceptible to a number of afflictions because we have guarded against such things; and not allowed them to develop immunities to them.

[Pete44ru]

.


Most likely futile, but wouldn't it be nice if the new Mommy switched to another Doctor, one who wasn't anti-gun ?



.

[JerryB]

Thanks Earl, glad to hear about your good report.

Doc AJ, it's good to have a few sane men in your line of work, thanks.

[JohndeFresno]

Good advice and reminder about lead levels.

We have seen that the non-shooting community frequently overreacts about the lead poisoning issue, but it's still good to know that all is well with you.

[Grizz]

I answer all those questions with NOYB. When they whine I laugh and ask, "you do believe in choice, don't you? I choose not to tell."

Grizz

[hondo1892]

Good to hear your lead levels are low. I had mine checked a few years back and my level was a one. I'm like you I don't always wash and have a coke while reloading. I've even cast bullets in an unvented garage with the doors closed a time or two when I was a teen. Yea I knew better but I was bullet proof back then. I think lead isn't near as deadly as some want us to believe. But I do think kids are a little more susceptible than grown ups are. When my daughter was young I wouldn't let her get near me when I was casting just to be safe. Burns and lead fumes.

[JOHNNY WACKO]

Good to hear your lead levels are low. I had mine checked a few years back and my level was a one. I'm like you I don't always wash and have a coke while reloading. I've even cast bullets in an unvented garage with the doors closed a time or two when I was a teen. Yea I knew better but I was bullet proof back then. I think lead isn't near as deadly as some want us to believe. But I do think kids are a little more susceptible than grown ups are. When my daughter was young I wouldn't let her get near me when I was casting just to be safe. Burns and lead fumes.

YOU GOT IT RITE there about kids being sitii develiping ,I hate to tough it myself. I got sick as a kid making sinkers and now the stuff gives me the willies...

[Old Ironsights]

People are more likely to have increased lead levels from shooting indoors in poorly ventilated ranged than from reloading - or even casting. Now, people who smelt a lot of scrap and don't have adequate ventilation &/or those who the wind gods hate may inhale more vaporised lead, but as far as reloading goes, if they ain't gnawing on the round balls, they ain't getting lead poisoning...

[rossim92]

That's good to hear! Now, how about the people that love to fish? They handle lead sinkers, oozing bait, and fresh fish all afternoon. Do you hear anything about lead exposure to them. I know that the epa wants to ban lead sinkers from fishing gear and have it replaced with other materials. I think that is more emphasized on the wildlife and enviroment then it is on human health. This is my opinion and have not researched the comments. Just what I pick up from the internet here and there. As far as i am concerned , weight is weight for sinkers no matter what you use for material. It's not like you are shooting sinkers out of firearms. I have used steel sinkers, they work great, just rust after a while.

[Rusty]

Now I guess they're gonna tell me I shouldn't keep pellets for my air rifle between my teeth for a quick reload.

[Les Staley]

Getting my yearly Medicare checkup, I asked the boss nurse if she was gonna ask about guns in my home... She laughed and said. "We learned our lesson on that question, early on...we now leave that one out.." Just wondered, as my Doc will often come back behind my table and sit and visit with me at our local Gun Show..gotta love small towns..

[Pisgah]

For decades, there was lead in our gasoline, our canned goods -- even our TOOTHPASTE, for Pete's sake.

Society's problem today is that we have so few REAL problems we have to make them up.

[AJMD429]

Metallic lead is a nearly non-issue, but lead salts are horribly toxic. Think of the difference in taste if you licked a piece of clean steel vs one with lots of flaky rust (never did that but have eaten food cooked off rusty camp cookware that nobody had brushed the rust off).

I'd worry WAY more about a kid handling old ammo or bullets with that white 'coating' on them, or chewing on old painted toys, where the lead was in some sort of 'salt' form (i.e. what we'd call 'rust' on steel). THAT IS VERY TOXIC, and once absorbed (happens quickly) takes years to naturally be eliminated, so the effect is essentially cumulative. On the other hand, I know of a case where a disgruntled employee of a paint-factory heard paint has lead in it (not the kind that plant made ), so he opened up some shotshells and swallowed a bunch of lead pellets then talked his doctor into a serum lead level. It was normal, so the patient begged the doc to do an X-ray "to look for lead in my body". Sensing something was up, the doctor complied, and of course there was a bunch of lead shot still in his intestine that hadn't passed yet. The guy's probably still in jail...

[M. M. Wright]

Yeah Earl, I did all the same things to expose myself for 60 years or so and when tested my lead level was very low. I think the big hoopla about lead is just a backdoor way of outlawing lead to get rid of our ammo. I even used Litharge, (a lead salt) and glycerin to install sleeves in auto engines for 40 or 50 years. Like Doc said, it's a lot more dangerous than metallic lead and still no "lead poisoning". For many years I had a big smelter that held at least 500 pounds of wheel weights and we melted those down and alloyed with linotype until we got about no. 2 bullet metal hardness. No idea how much this didn't add to my lead level.

[Griff]

I figure that in this modern age of reloading, elevated lead levels are harder to attain. With all the information available thru on-line sources, rom forums such as this, detailed manufacturers loading guides the greatest risk of lead being introduced into ones' bloodstream is almost negligible.

I'm talkin' about papercuts from flippin' pages in reloading manuals! I smelt, cast and reload indoors in a well ventilated space... even when closed up, my barn is a drafty space! Other open wounds are equally susceptible to have lead vapor or particles enter your bloodstream; but minimal care, such as bandaids or other coverings can virtually eliminate the possibility.

Over on the SASS Wire this subject comes up from time-to-time, and some of the hoops some of them describe going thru makes me wonder why they don't wear breathing masks when they're shooting! I suspect a few of then actually wear full hazmat suitsm but are afraid of the ridicule they'll undergo if they admit it!

I do take reasonable precautions, mostly, no open wounds, wash my hands & face before eating, and if I do take a cold drink for refreshment during those hot Texas summers, I keep it closed up and away from the immediate area when casting is going on. My annual checkup bloodwork includes a lead check. It's never been above what my Dr. calls "negligible", tho' he's never mentioned a specific number.

Glad to hear that your #s are so low Earl..

[mikld]

My opinion is based on personal experience and a mistrust of politicians that will grab at anything, using scare tactics for voter manipulation (evil lead that kills children). I believe that lead poisoning is possible, but not from the shooting sports.

I have used indoor ranges for 20+ years when I lived in L.A. Some had adequate ventilation, some didn't. I worked in downtown L.A. for 25 years (in a non-air conditioned shop). I cast lead for sinkers when I was younger and cast bullets for mebbe 20 years. I have handled fired cases by the hundreds three or four times per year (with dead primers still in). I worked on Heavy Equipment that was painted with old (really old) School Bus Yellow, often grinding on the painted metal. My employer provided annual physicals that included blood tests checking for all possible toxins and for the last 4 or 5 years of my employment my lead/blood levels ran about a 4 on the scale.

I believe many folks today hear theories and some factual information and are fear driven to extreme measures (for example; those evil lead wheel weights in CA that detach themselves from wheels and lie on the side of the road waiting to be ground into dust by passing cars/trucks so they can seep down when it rains into the water table and poisoning everyone within a 100 mile radius, or those poor buzzards that dine on gut piles, which include lead bullets, and die). How many of you casters have been bombarded by warnings about the "Tensile Fairy"? I have personally poured water on my lead pot to see if the Fairy would appear, but I guess she only appears to true believers. No eruption, just steam. But so many warnings are tossed around "even a drop of sweat will cause an eruption", "keep all water far away from your casting bench or you will eventually be wearing molten lead".

IMHO; Chicken Little" thinking and anti-gun politicians...

[65bee]

Yeah, exposure to lead certainly can shorten your life-span. My Dad was a life-long bullet caster and reloader. Can remember him casting bullets on winter evenings in our basement with no ventilation and the air so thick you could cut it with a knife. He passed away last year at the age of only 100! My sister and I have said if he had avoided this lead exposure and all those enjoyable years, he might have lived to be 101 or may be even 102. That whole 'lead is deadly' business is a crock! Only lead that is deadly is that coming out the end of a gun barrel.

[JOHNNY WACKO]

I was at my doc last week and other then a few questions about me.We talked guns and reloading for the hole visit.he just got into then with his adult son.He knew i was a gun nut and had a list of ? for me.AND MY BILL that i pay myself was $25 less this visit.

I personal think lead affects me way more then others and i know I'm not the only 1 out there.I buy Plated bullets,and never handle the stuff.
I don't care how others handle it , thats there choice and i agree with them. It made me sick as hell as a kid and that tough me to stay clear.wish i wasn't that way but i am.

I got galvanize poison working with guard rail in my 30s too.Maybe there is a clue there somewhere ??

[jeepnik]

Physicians, in general, seem to be anti-gun. I doubt the pediatrician had any "scientific" data to back up his claim. If he/she did, the granddaughter should have been provided with that info.

Are new mother's over protective? Sure, that's the way mother nature intended it to be. Will other's take advantage of that? Every second of every day.

Year's of shooting, casting (both bullets and fishing weights) not to mention just handling them, working in the petroleum industry (remember good ole TEL "tetraethyl lead). And I have never had any sort of lead level in my blood.

By the way, anyone remember why TEL was banned? Another bunch of voodoo science foisted off on the public by a bunch of self serving "experts".

[retmech]

How many of you casters have been bombarded by warnings about the "Tensile Fairy"? I have personally poured water on my lead pot to see if the Fairy would appear, but I guess she only appears to true believers. No eruption, just steam. But so many warnings are tossed around "even a drop of sweat will cause an eruption", "keep all water far away from your casting bench or you will eventually be wearing molten lead".

Water "on" a lead pot no problem, water under the lead surface="tinsel fairy". As you noticed water on the surface turns to steam and harmlessly evaporates. Put a damp wheel weight or wet piece on lead into a pot of molten lead and you will meet the "tinsel fairy". People who use Marvelux flux can meet her if they plunge the empty fluxing spoon from a previous casting session under the molten lead surface(the residue of flux on the spoon attracts moisture). Any time moisture gets UNDER the molten lead surface you will get an eruption of molten lead, guaranteed!. The devil is in the details.

[CowboyTutt]

Very good post gentleman, thank you!!!!!!

-Tutt

[Sixgun]

There's not a whole lot I give a pelosi about....except my family and my Winchesters and Colts. Been casting since I was 18...a lot....was tested a few years back and it was a high normal....and this is for a guy who eats lead and chews on bullets for relaxation.

The biggest issue are inner city kids who eat windowsills because their parents are too lazy, ignorant, or just plain stupid to care for their kids. You know, "gotta get me a Cadillac"......."let the kids eat where they can find food......my I phone be callin' me and my hoe".

I see it all the time on Philly news.--------6

[AJMD429]

The biggest issue are inner city kids who eat windowsills because their parents are too lazy, ignorant, or just plain stupid to care for their kids. You know, "gotta get me a Cadillac"......."let the kids eat where they can find food......my I phone be callin' me and my hoe".

I see it all the time on Philly news.--------6

The whole paradigm of medicine now is "treat everyone like you treat the ghetto-dwellers", and that's why you see doctors demanding infants get a Hepatitis B vaccine, when the ways you get Hep B are - intravenous drug abuse, sexual intimacy with someone who is infected, tattoos done without sterile equipment, and - transfusions... Transfusions happen to something like 1/10,000 of children by age ten, and around 1/10,000 transfusions transmits Hep B now due to screening of the donors. So - a kid by age ten has about a 1/100,000 chance of getting Hep B via transfusion (and most of the frequent-transfusion kids are known hemophiliacs so are known to be at more risk). Yet pediatricians literally call 'child protective services' on parents who decline ("refuse") Hep B vaccinations, INCLUDING the sensible ones who want the vaccine, but want to delay it until age 10 or so, since it also seems to start wearing off in 20 years or so - so the newborn we vaccinate starts to lose immunity about when the go to college or join the military or dropout and go wild, whereas the 10 year old who is vaccinated starts to lose immunity around age 30, by which time nearly all of us 'settle down' even if we were wild prior to that.

But if mom's 14 years old and doing 'favors' in exchange for heroin, yes, there IS a hepatitis B risk in that household. What the doctors are too stupid to realize or too arrogant to admit, is that not everyone lives in a ghetto tenement, and not everyone is a drug dealer or one who services them.

[Old Ironsights]

The biggest issue are inner city kids who eat windowsills because their parents are too lazy, ignorant, or just plain stupid to care for their kids. You know, "gotta get me a Cadillac"......."let the kids eat where they can find food......my I phone be callin' me and my hoe".

I see it all the time on Philly news.--------6

The whole paradigm of medicine now is "treat everyone like you treat the ghetto-dwellers", and that's why you see doctors demanding infants get a Hepatitis B vaccine, when the ways you get Hep B are - intravenous drug abuse, sexual intimacy with someone who is infected, tattoos done without sterile equipment, and - transfusions... Transfusions happen to something like 1/10,000 of children by age ten, and around 1/10,000 transfusions transmits Hep B now due to screening of the donors. So - a kid by age ten has about a 1/100,000 chance of getting Hep B via transfusion (and most of the frequent-transfusion kids are known hemophiliacs so are known to be at more risk). Yet pediatricians literally call 'child protective services' on parents who decline ("refuse") Hep B vaccinations, INCLUDING the sensible ones who want the vaccine, but want to delay it until age 10 or so, since it also seems to start wearing off in 20 years or so - so the newborn we vaccinate starts to lose immunity about when the go to college or join the military or dropout and go wild, whereas the 10 year old who is vaccinated starts to lose immunity around age 30, by which time nearly all of us 'settle down' even if we were wild prior to that.

But if mom's 14 years old and doing 'favors' in exchange for heroin, yes, there IS a hepatitis B risk in that household. What the doctors are too stupid to realize or too arrogant to admit, is that not everyone lives in a ghetto tenement, and not everyone is a drug dealer or one who services them.

and people wonder why I ... postulate ... the societal benefit of some rag nuking DC/NYC/Shtcago/LA/SF/etc...

[Grizz]

Doc, not to put too fine a point on it, the number would be 1/100,000,000, which makes your point several orders of magnitude more bigger.

Grizz

[jeepnik]

The biggest issue are inner city kids who eat windowsills because their parents are too lazy, ignorant, or just plain stupid to care for their kids. You know, "gotta get me a Cadillac"......."let the kids eat where they can find food......my I phone be callin' me and my hoe".

I see it all the time on Philly news.--------6

The whole paradigm of medicine now is "treat everyone like you treat the ghetto-dwellers", and that's why you see doctors demanding infants get a Hepatitis B vaccine, when the ways you get Hep B are - intravenous drug abuse, sexual intimacy with someone who is infected, tattoos done without sterile equipment, and - transfusions... Transfusions happen to something like 1/10,000 of children by age ten, and around 1/10,000 transfusions transmits Hep B now due to screening of the donors. So - a kid by age ten has about a 1/100,000 chance of getting Hep B via transfusion (and most of the frequent-transfusion kids are known hemophiliacs so are known to be at more risk). Yet pediatricians literally call 'child protective services' on parents who decline ("refuse") Hep B vaccinations, INCLUDING the sensible ones who want the vaccine, but want to delay it until age 10 or so, since it also seems to start wearing off in 20 years or so - so the newborn we vaccinate starts to lose immunity about when the go to college or join the military or dropout and go wild, whereas the 10 year old who is vaccinated starts to lose immunity around age 30, by which time nearly all of us 'settle down' even if we were wild prior to that.

But if mom's 14 years old and doing 'favors' in exchange for heroin, yes, there IS a hepatitis B risk in that household. What the doctors are too stupid to realize or too arrogant to admit, is that not everyone lives in a ghetto tenement, and not everyone is a drug dealer or one who services them.

and people wonder why I ... postulate ... the societal benefit of some rag nuking DC/NYC/Shtcago/LA/SF/etc...

And, as a resident of the LA metro area, I thank you for your considerate thoughts.

[mikld]

Water "on" a lead pot no problem, water under the lead surface="tinsel fairy". As you noticed water on the surface turns to steam and harmlessly evaporates. Put a damp wheel weight or wet piece on lead into a pot of molten lead and you will meet the "tinsel fairy". People who use Marvelux flux can meet her if they plunge the empty fluxing spoon from a previous casting session under the molten lead surface(the residue of flux on the spoon attracts moisture). Any time moisture gets UNDER the molten lead surface you will get an eruption of molten lead, guaranteed!. The devil is in the details.

Yep, UNDER the surface. But look at any casting forum and you'll read the warnings about one drop of water causing an eruption. If that drop could get under the surface, yep there will be a good chance of an eruption (what's the expansion ratio of water to steam?). I stir my molten lead with a wooden stick and often get sizzling/bubbling when I start stirring from the moisture in the wood. And I believe that half (or more) of those posting those dire warnings have never had a visit from "the Tinsel Fairy", just parroting something that makes them sound knowledgeable...

My point was that some will arm themselves with half truths, pseudo-science, and fear and go off on a crusade. Most of these crusades start with ulterior motives and Evil Lead is on the hit list of one of those crusades, with little real life facts to back up the crusaders...

[earlmck]

Dang, this turned into a right informative discussion. Thanks DocAJ for those physician insights!

And mikld, I agree there is a lot of bs around the lead/water deal: the folks warning against the terrible things that could happen if a drop of sweat dropped off your nose into the pot, for example. You certainly can, however, make things dramatic by plopping an ingot with a bit of moisture on it into the pot. I warm mine on the edge of the pot until I need to add them. Anyway, that's how I do it NOW

I had a little discussion with granddaughter and her hubby yesterday and showed them my lab results. I was careful to thank her for causing me to get up to speed on the subject and was also careful to never use the word "horsepucky". Even Granddad has to step real careful around a new "Momma-bear".

[retmech]

So the pediatrician really alerted to that and told granddaughter that there was great risk of lead exposure to the baby from being around people who reload.

It constantly amazes me the idiotic statements by people who should know better. How in the heck did most of us survive. Our parents painted our rooms with lead based paint, as were all of our toys(I grew up in the 50's). The cars driving by us on the streets were burning leaded gas( one of the bigger causes of lead poisoning then). Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating a return to lead based paint or leaded gas but the idea of simply "being around people who reload" is laughable.

[vancelw]

The biggest issue are inner city kids who eat windowsills because their parents are too lazy, ignorant, or just plain stupid to care for their kids. You know, "gotta get me a Cadillac"......."let the kids eat where they can find food......my I phone be callin' me and my hoe".

I see it all the time on Philly news.--------6

The whole paradigm of medicine now is "treat everyone like you treat the ghetto-dwellers", and that's why you see doctors demanding infants get a Hepatitis B vaccine, when the ways you get Hep B are - intravenous drug abuse, sexual intimacy with someone who is infected, tattoos done without sterile equipment, and - transfusions... Transfusions happen to something like 1/10,000 of children by age ten, and around 1/10,000 transfusions transmits Hep B now due to screening of the donors. So - a kid by age ten has about a 1/100,000 chance of getting Hep B via transfusion (and most of the frequent-transfusion kids are known hemophiliacs so are known to be at more risk). Yet pediatricians literally call 'child protective services' on parents who decline ("refuse") Hep B vaccinations, INCLUDING the sensible ones who want the vaccine, but want to delay it until age 10 or so, since it also seems to start wearing off in 20 years or so - so the newborn we vaccinate starts to lose immunity about when the go to college or join the military or dropout and go wild, whereas the 10 year old who is vaccinated starts to lose immunity around age 30, by which time nearly all of us 'settle down' even if we were wild prior to that.

But if mom's 14 years old and doing 'favors' in exchange for heroin, yes, there IS a hepatitis B risk in that household. What the doctors are too stupid to realize or too arrogant to admit, is that not everyone lives in a ghetto tenement, and not everyone is a drug dealer or one who services them.

and people wonder why I ... postulate ... the societal benefit of some rag nuking DC/NYC/Shtcago/LA/SF/etc...

And, as a resident of the LA metro area, I thank you for your considerate thoughts.

What!?! You don't have a bunker? I'm ashamed..... You could emerge as King of the Hill, er Crater.

[mikld]

And, as a resident of the LA metro area, I thank you for your considerate thoughts.

An aside;
Hee, Hee. The area of L.A. where I grew up should be bombed! As a matter of fact, the "residents" of some of those areas tried to destroy it themselves (Watts, So. Central, and Koreatown). During the post Rodney King incident I had to drive through a "hot" area and since I had no intension of being another Reginald Denny, I kept my fully loaded 629 with 2 speed loaders on the seat next to me...

[KirkD]

Glad to hear your lead levels were so low given your exposure. I personally think people are peeing their pants in panic because they might have touched a lead bullet, for nothing. I played with lead when I was a kid, used to hunt Snowshoe Hares everyday with a single shot 22 and extra rounds carried in my mouth (hard to get a quick reload when wearing a bulky parka at 30 below zero, so the mouth makes a real handy repository). I cast my own, melt used wheel weights, etc. Got tested for lead a couple years ago ..... can't remember the exact figure, but well within normal.

[.45colt]

About ten years ago, on our Fall trip to Ontario for Muskies one of our camp chores that year was painting. I was outside scraping & painting. The Cabin has a long two sided screen porch facing the lake.
It was a warm October day, several of the Crew started with belt sanders working on the ceiling and floor.by the time they were done All looked like they got hit by a dust storm. how much lead is in 80 years of layers of paint?

[Griff]

I believe, that unlike exposure to asbestos, lead levels will return to normal levels when exposure is removed.

The smart alec in me wants to say enough to make ya sterile in 10-½ years.