PRICE CHECK -- 1st year 1894!!

alnitak · Post by **alnitak** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:06 pm

I'm starting this thread for Rjohns94. He's found a three-digit (5xx) serial 1894 in .38-55. It is 26" octagon barrel, crescent butt, buckhorn rear sight, bead front, full mag, 60% bluing intact, excellent bore, some light pitting, dings on the stock and external to the barrel. What do you think? If the price is less than $2k, should he jump all over it? What other features/characteristics should he look at to evaluate the rifle?

Also, there's a dove-tail cutout a couple of inches behind the front sight. Any idea what the purpose of that is?

Thanks in advance for the advice.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:10 pm

The extra dovetail cutout would radically reduce its collector's value. There is a very good chance something has been altered. The first thing to do would be to get the factory info from Cody to find out what the configuration was originally. With an altered barrel, the value may be closer to around 1K.

longarm4146 · Post by **longarm4146** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:23 pm

pay close attention to what KirkD said. Research is gonna be necessary on this gun if you're contemplating dropping around 2 grand in it, as it may be no more than a nice shooter grade rifle. Don't see a lot of first year guns with 60% original finish left, or a pristene bore.....tread carefully.....Good luck, they're great pieces of history.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:21 pm

Just a guess but that secondary dovetail may of been for a scope.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:26 pm

As for the dovetail, it was also a practice years ago to move the rear right up the barrel as the user's eyesight deteriorated. I saw a muzzleloader in Tn at a museum that had three different dovetails.

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:30 pm

I would guess the second dovetail was for one of those looong brass Malcolm sights. After all the 38-55 was a very highly thought of target cartridge in its day.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:06 pm

its me and after my discussion with Griff at dinner tonight, we agree that this is a take down version and the 2nd dovetail which is about 4 inches behind the rear sight and in line with the mag tube, should have a mag tube bracket there. That is what is missing. Otherwise this rifle is not altered. The bore is mint!!!! The action is very smooth!!! the recvr is about 60% with normal wear and some scratches. The barrel has some pitting on the outer surface and a patinna is starting on it but would take some oil and look just fine. The wood has no cracks or chips. Just some light handling marks on some ok wood. at 1700, is this a good deal? wish i had pics but they would not let me take pics

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:21 am

A dovetail for a magtube hanger, where there isn't usually a hanger is a big red flag. Also, it should not be a dovetail, but a slot that has curved cuts where the magtube hanger is rotated into place. I've seen enough altered guns to be very wary of anything that is slightly out of kilter.

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:29 pm

Mike,

I take it that the dovetail is on the barrel bottom not on the top (sighting plane)... is that right? There seems to be some confusion on that point due to your reference to the sights...

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:38 pm

Yes, that's what I understood from ouor conversation last nite, one thing
Mike didn't mention is that he was unsure if it was a takedown receiver, an yes, further scrunity is deemed necessary. HOw deep that dovetai is of prime importance. As Kirk suggests I could be altered, whether by the factory or not is a question uppermost in my mind. I'll add some more when I stop.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:12 pm

Hobie,

Yes, if the sights are on top, this large dovetail is on the bottom. It was professionally done and I don't think this was after market. It really seems to me that it is for a support band for the removable mag tube.

Thanks

mike

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:38 pm

KirkD

Please explain why there shouldn't be one there? I have a picture of 6_ _ and it has a mag tube hanger there. The barrel is 26 inches long and the mag tube does screw out of the receiver. I appreciate the advice and I will check on this later today. I will look with a more a critical eye as to whether its a dove tail or a slot. They would not let me take pictures yesterday. perhaps I will get some today.

thanks
mike

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:42 pm

Vastly edited:

Hobie, yes, that's what I understood from our conversation last nite, one thing Mike didn't mention is that he was unsure if it was, in fact, a takedown receiver. Hopefully on his next look he'll be able to ascertain.

KirkD, yes, further scrunity is deemed necessary. That dovetail was described as quite shallow, and eyeballin' isn't a good standard of measure. As you suggests it could be altered, whether by the factory or not is a question uppermost in my mind. I'll add some more when I stop.

Continued: I couldn't say definitely that it was a takedown, Mike didn't remember a visible demarkation along the front of the receiver that would have said, yes, it's a TD. The one thing he described quite readily is the TD lever & cap at the end of the mag tube. Regardless of whether it is a TD or not, that ring should be there; what won't is a pin thru the ring and mag tube, as the mag tube has to rotate to be removed from the receiver. All current replacements will have a hole for the pin. Mike, also did not recall a "slot" in the mag tube for the pin to go thru. So, I think we're left with three distinct possibilities: 1) it is a TD that for some reason is missing the mag tube ring (which as I understand his description is just about located right where it should be and the correct dimensions for such); 2) that it was converted at the factory or some other shop into a TD and the ring was "in-the-way" or ???; or lastly, 3) someone just put a TD mag cap and lever on the magazine tube.

#3 is the far more troubling scenario, as in my mind that would call into question of the whole of the gun's povenance as they say. Is it a parts gun, that is being foisted off on an unsuspecting (buyer beware) public, or is the seller unknowing also? #2 wouldn't disturb me overly much, especially if the provenance shows the factory did the conversion to TD. Lastly on to #1, this can also be an issue as it is my understanding that early 1894 Win TDs were not very well done, or maybe I should say problematic. However, I do understand that not many have survived, if any (I haven't seen one person), and to have an example would make it a very valuable piece. (I think)!

Ok, I found it, that which has been haunting me since last nite...

according to Madis on page 421 of my 1979 ed. of "The Winchester Book", takedowns in the Model 1894 were not introduced until 1895. So... it was either a factory conversion, or done by a 'smith outside the factory.

Edit #2: Also ran across the verbage about the early TDs, it sez, early 1894 TDs exhibited some problems and these were solved in 1896 by the inclusion with owner instructions for it's use. This makes sense, since the 94 used the same TD feature as both later '86s and '92s.