1538 yards with an 11mm Mauser...

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:30 pm

On the 'Military Collection' thread, CowboyTutt posted:

CowboyTutt wrote:The other gun I like most of all, but didn't see much military service is the 71/84 Mauser in 11mm/43 Mauser. I first handled one of these in Mic McPherson's garage many years ago, and it was immediately noticeable it was something special. A bolt action repeater with a bypassable tube mag. It could be fired single shot, or using the tube mag. The fit and finish of these rifles was considered one of the "high water marks" of military craftsmanship. I have used mine with a custom loaded 485 grain bullet to bust the Billy Dixon target at 1538 yards multiple times using its stock iron sights. How do you even compare to that???

They aren't cheap anymore, but they are an incredible rifle companion if you can handload.

-Tutt

From AmmoGuide.com

"Nominal Performance:

Bullet Weight: 385 gr
Muzzle Velocity: 1360 fps
Muzzle Energy: 1581 ft-lbs

Of course those of us who read the gun magazines with dedication KNOW such an anemic and ballistically-inefficient cartridge could never perform out much past 100 yards...

Then you go and add another hundred grains of bullet weight; that slug surely hits the ground about 25 yards from the muzzle.

I'd like to hear more about that gun and its performance, though, even though I 'know' it isn't good for more than a canoe paddle.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:36 pm

Love that rifle.... COOL !!

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:18 pm

Well Doc, you and I know better about these old guns, that is for sure. I probably shouldn't have said anything I guess. But its true and was done multiple times in the presence of witnesses who don't do the forum thing. I did it here at the FoBD range:

http://www.gunblast.com/AndyTuttle_FOBD.htm

On one shot I hit the center "Indian" rider's horse square on the head. Couldn't believe it. I use a blue dot load and a 485 grain bullet that with lube seems to weigh 500. It does about 1150 fps IIRC. Its the max length the rifling will stabilize (I know because I tried an even heavier one).

At the firing line:

There are more pictures attached to the article. Just click on them. Seriously guys, with a good accurate load these old guns can shoot and shoot well.

My best friend Tym also it with his 303 Brit Enfield which no one has reproduced to this day. That cartridge tends to go unstable as it goes subsonic but that one weekend the weather conditions were perfect (humidity, air density etc) that allowed Tym to make the shot. Tym's a former Marine and a better shot than me. This is not magic, it just takes practice and a range where you can shoot that far.

Come to think of it, our own Griff came to one of these FoBD events, but I'm not sure which one it was. My very first visit I was not able to hit the target at that range but came back the following times and did.

Regards,

-Tutt

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:26 pm

That has to be breaking some sort of a Peace Treaty! We have all these tribes complaining about naming mascots Redskins or Injuns, I sure hope they don't see this and find out we are shootin at them. They may go on the Warpath!

Nice Shooting!

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:36 pm

Yeah, I ran into some liberals along the way who got all bent out of shape us shooting at "Indians". I tried to explain to them it is a historical reproduction of one of the greatest shots in history and that we (Friends of Billy Dixon) are a licensed educational entity or something to that effect. I'm just the PR guy, I don't follow that stuff too much.

I did find my original article about my experiences there. Truly, it is the most fun shooting at a range you could ever have. I have been to the NRA's Whittington Center in NM and I can tell you, I prefer the facility at FoBD to be sure. You get to know your handgun or rifle at ALL ranges and come back from one trip a far better shooter.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?t=5619

I'm planning for an event in June and will keep everyone posted.

-Tutt

wvfarrier · Post by **wvfarrier** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:41 pm

Good grief. The libs see you shooting a target like that and you'll be labeled a racist fer sure

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:50 pm

Old 3120

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:02 pm

How can you not LOVE a rifle where every screw, even the stock, has a part of the serial number???

-Tutt

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:16 pm

I found some more pics buried in my Photobucket account. This one is one of my all time favorites. That's Griff in the top center in the long sleeved striped shirt. Imagine being at the firing line, and all these men are at your back, WISHING you good will, and hoping you hit the target. There is no shooting experience that compares to this. The amount of fellowship shooting at this place, where we share knowledge and try to get everyone on target, is simply amazing and without peer. -Tutt

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:03 pm

OK... now do it OFFHAND.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:09 pm

Tutt,
Somewhere at the Whittington center is a plaque with my name on it.
I was one of the original contributers for the build.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:13 pm

I had and enjoyed a 71/84 11mm back when I as 16. Bought it off a neighbour for $1, shot it for a number of years and sold it for $30. Dominion still made ammo for it and I saved the cases. Eventually sold the cases for $30 as we'll. it was a fun rifle. The only game I got with it was a Snowshoe Hare.

Great photos. I would love to participate in something like that. Your 71/84 is in beautiful condition. Much, much nicer than my $1 Mauser.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:46 pm

Thanks to Doc AJ and Tut for showing this, It would be something to be where I could shoot like that. Here in these north Arkansaw hills and ridges 100 yards is a real long shot.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:49 pm

Hey Guys, was never my intention to get into a peeing contest here. I'm not the OP here. Old Ironsights, I don't think its possible to hit the target at that range "off hand" as the original sights have no adjustment for windage. That fact has been a real stumbling block for me as I don't have the same level of sight tuning that other BP rifles have here.

Mesc, that doesn't surprise me at all.

We all do the best we can with what we have. I'm very blessed to have had so much instruction on how to hit targets at long range, and no, I can't do it every time with "Old 3120". But I can usually hit it a time or two. Its a darn fine rifle.

-Tutt

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:04 pm

Tutt: Interesting thread. Log on the Shiloh-Sharps site and PM Kenny Wasserburger. He hosts a one mile BPCR match on his ranch in WY and is a very experienced BP LR shooter.

Those BP Mausers will shoot. I have a pristine M 71 Mauser (single shot action for Those-Not-In-The Know) that was issued to Bavarian Engineering regiment. Must have spent its entire life in the armory storage box as it looks like it came from the Amsburgh Arsenal yesterday. One of these days I going to try Paper Patch in it. Paper Patch works very well in my Shiloh-Sharps. Maybe I will put on the "shoot list" for the 2014 Shooting Season.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:18 pm

To quote a famous writer, "Hell I Was There!" And haven't found the time to get back, although I very much want to. My .40-90SBN 1874 Sharps will reachout that far, but... without a tall enough rear sight I have no idea of where they were going once we went beyond 1,000 yards. And I was having trouble get consistent impacts at that range.

Tutt is absolutely correct... those in attendance were certainly helpful, encouraging and just downright supportive of all the competitors. I think, in part, it was because we weren't competing against each other... just the range, wind & our own individual limitations. I met a number of shooters there that, for lack of a more susinct word, impressed the heck out of me!

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:29 pm

Don't forget to PM me when you are coming back to the FoBD range. I will meet you there. Will bring my Trapdoor.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:34 pm

Now this is really COOL stuff...

I need to learn about this. Someday. When I have time.

But in the meantime, I will READ these threads with keen interest...!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:39 pm

Hey Guys, was never my intention to get into a peeing contest here.

I sure don't see any such thing??

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:00 am

Tutt,
When I was asked to contribute to the build, I was contacted by Harlon Carter.
I was heavy into silhouete shooting then, eventually known.
When I signed the document for the original build, I signed in BOLD writing; like John Bull bull did when he signed for our freedom!
I wanted EVERYONE to know wherre I stood

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:14 am

Well, I see no offense here from Doc or anyone else. Doc has been on my "friend list" for more years than I can count. While I have been absent for a couple of years, that has not, nor WILL not change anything. I don't pretend to be some sort of expert on all things "ultra long range shooting" but I will pass on what information I have access to from people more knowledgeable than me. That much I can do. Mesc, I have been working for days for your personal thread.

-Tutt

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:19 am

CowboyTutt wrote:Well, I see no offense here from Doc or anyone else. Doc has been on my "friend list" for more years than I can count. While I have been absent for a couple of years, that has not, nor WILL not change anything. I don't pretend to be some sort of expert on all things "ultra long range shooting" but I will pass on what information I have access to from people more knowledgeable than me. That much I can do. Mesc, I have been working for days for your personal thread.

-Tutt

I would love to work with my Sharps alongside of someone that has their "stuff" together.....My "hard" shots tend to be 100-200 yds with handguns.....Those pesky white rocks are fairly safe.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:24 am

Oh,
I can help you with that.

piller · Post by **piller** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:25 am

I think it is some pretty cool stuff. Well made rifles are always of interest, and shooting them to find out just how accurate they can be is fun. I wish I had something worth taking to the FoBD range. Someday, I might just take my Guide Gun and see what it and I can do. Whatever the outcome, it sounds fun.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:14 am

Griff wrote:Tutt is absolutely correct... those in attendance were certainly helpful, encouraging and just downright supportive of all the competitors. I think, in part, it was because we weren't competing against each other... just the range, wind & our own individual limitations. I met a number of shooters there that, for lack of a more susinct word, impressed the heck out of me!

That is the best kind of shooting. I have no experience at shooting such long distances and would enjoy such a meeting enormously.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:12 am

Wow a Big Thanks for posting this. As a Kid I listened to My Grandfather telling Stories about His 11mm Mauser He bought around 1910. that rifle really made a Big impression on Him.

.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:55 am

Tutt,

Let me say first and foremost I love your gun and yes it is extremely cool.
Very fine shooting.

What I am curious about is on that bench shooting 10rds how many times can you put a hole in that target?

Friend, and I mean absolutely no disrespect but you see these videos with some kid making a basket from a 7 story building but how many "try agains were involved" ?

I have to believe any newer age weapon with sights of what you are using or some having better sights would even do better?

Example would be maybe something like say my .416 Weatherby shooting a 350gr bullet @ 2900fps with a drop of about 1/5th as much and a better designed bullet on its flight.

Again, make no mistake, that gun is very cool. You hitting that target is very cool. Just when you say top that got to think many weapons could. Now if its up to just the shooter ??? don't know bro cause I think you are pretty good!

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:21 pm

Pardon me Doc.....but I often wonder about Tutts 11mm.

Thanks for the photo's and update...i do like the old'ns still doing it in style

N.

1886 · Post by **1886** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:29 pm

CowboyTutt wrote:How can you not LOVE a rifle where every screw, even the stock, has a part of the serial number???

-Tutt

Hi Tutt, Great thread. Thanks for posting. Is that rifle pillar bedded? If so, is that factory? Thanks, 1886.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:46 pm

1886, believe it or not, the rifle is completely stock except for a mild trigger job. Its not pillar bedded.

Madman, no disrespect felt on my end at all. Your right, there are certainly better cartridges for the job. In fact, the next visit I want to put my 375 H&H Ackley load with a 350 grain BT bullet at 2500 fps and has a BC of point 7 something and stays supersonic well past 1538 yards.

OTOH, its simply amazing what these old guns (Sharps, Hi Walls, Springfields, etc) can do. The way we do things at FoBD is there is an observation booth with someone in it who calls the shot impact back to the shooter by radio. Mic made a minute of angle grid with rocks so the information the shooter receives allows him to make adjustments.

The reason these old guns work is that the heavy bullet weight allows them to stay relatively stable as they cross the supersonic/subsonic barrier and the corresponding turbulence there. Light weight bullets at super fast velocities don't fair so well transitioning through that barrier.

I was also taught by these guys to keep a "brain book" as Torkelson calls it so I have an idea of what the sight settings and sight picture should be for different conditions. I also have a load that is extremely consistent (thanks Mic!) with a 10 shot string showing an ES of 17 fps and a SD of 5. Average velocity with the 485 grain bullet is 1170 fps. I don't think I could get that kind of consistency with BP.

There is some luck involved as wind and weather, even whether its sunny or overcast, can really change things. We have wind flags all the way down so you can see what the wind is doing. Sometimes I wait until the wind seems to have abated but in the seconds it takes for the bullet to travel that far, it can change in an instant.

I have it the target array twice in a row one time and seen others do it more than me. I'm a little limited because I have no adjustment for windage other than what I apply myself.

Really, its a truly remarkable experience to shoot out there. I purchased Old 3120 because I HOPED it was sort of be a "poor man's Sharps". While there are better rifles available for this purpose, its sort of cool to be using a rifle made over a hundred years ago and using it to its full potential.

-Tutt

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:10 pm

CowboyTutt wrote:1886, believe it or not, the rifle is completely stock except for a mild trigger job. Its not pillar bedded.

Madman, no disrespect felt on my end at all. Your right, there are certainly better cartridges for the job. In fact, the next visit I want to put my 375 H&H Ackley load with a 350 grain BT bullet at 2500 fps and has a BC of point 7 something and stays supersonic well past 1538 yards.

OTOH, its simply amazing what these old guns (Sharps, Hi Walls, Springfields, etc) can do. The way we do things at FoBD is there is an observation booth with someone in it who calls the shot impact back to the shooter by radio. Mic made a minute of angle grid with rocks so the information the shooter receives allows him to make adjustments.

The reason these old guns work is that the heavy bullet weight allows them to stay relatively stable as they cross the supersonic/subsonic barrier and the corresponding turbulence there. Light weight bullets at super fast velocities don't fair so well transitioning through that barrier.

I was also taught by these guys to keep a "brain book" as Torkelson calls it so I have an idea of what the sight settings and sight picture should be for different conditions. I also have a load that is extremely consistent (thanks Mic!) with a 10 shot string showing an ES of 17 fps and a SD of 5. Average velocity with the 485 grain bullet is 1170 fps. I don't think I could get that kind of consistency with BP.

There is some luck involved as wind and weather, even whether its sunny or overcast, can really change things. We have wind flags all the way down so you can see what the wind is doing. Sometimes I wait until the wind seems to have abated but in the seconds it takes for the bullet to travel that far, it can change in an instant.

I have it the target array twice in a row one time and seen others do it more than me. I'm a little limited because I have no adjustment for windage other than what I apply myself.

Really, its a truly remarkable experience to shoot out there. I purchased Old 3120 because I HOPED it was sort of be a "poor man's Sharps". While there are better rifles available for this purpose, its sort of cool to be using a rifle made over a hundred years ago and using it to its full potential.

-Tutt

Dude,

You got it going on bro.
And frankly hitting that target with that cool unit, honestly you must be one heck of a shot.
Would love to burn some powder with you, but with me lets keep it about 200-300 yds

I am not that good my man!

Cool stuff ya doing!

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:37 pm

I'm not really that great a shot! It just takes practice. Its doable by anyone. Another interesting thing Mic taught me is that you never want the bullet to leave the muzzle at the speed of sound (1125 fps give or take for temp) because of the turbulence I mentioned earlier. The bullet is at its most vulnerable just as it leaves the barrel. So my load is just faster than Mach 1 at that point then it quickly goes subsonic and stays that way all the way down range.

Its also just as much fun to be in the observation booth as it is to be the shooter and see the steel targets get THWACKED!

Even my slow moving bullet has some thump left at that range.

We have shooting lines on various animal targets from 100-600 yards so we could shoot all day and never even get to the Billy Dixon firing line. Plenty to do! I'd love to shoot with you too. Where's home?

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:41 pm

Tut
It is sure nice to see you posting again. Bout another couple years and I will be able to join you out there with my roller.

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:44 pm

Tutt: here is a 1879 test of the .45-70 at two miles.....

Read all 'bout it:
www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm

For other interesting Long Range and other shooting information, view the index at:
www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/index.htm

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:29 pm

Thanks Ray. I bookmarked both of those. I have read about Sandy Hook before but its been a while. The 45-70 500 grain round nosed bullet is about as good as it gets for ultra long range shooting.

Jeremy, nice to see you too. Did you ever get a motorsickle?

-Tutt

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:00 pm

Ray, that 1879 Sandy Hook (sad that we now have to clarify) trial set the USA back ten years in military arms development. Love my trapdoors, but...not to formidable against the Mauser's in Cuba.

Kirk, think I have your old $1 M71/84...shoots fine, but all mismatched and used.

Tutt, excellent rifle, believe I have a twin to that one too, all matching. Old OS doesn't allow me to post pictures anymore

The rear tang re-enforcement was not on all M71/84's my Spandau does not have it, the other does...go figure.

The distance these old military "large" bore/heavy bullet rifles can be effective is impressive, but as proved during the Plevna incident, firepower and flatter trajectory carried the day. Imagine that...a levergun changing the way wars were fought!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:15 pm

CowboyTutt wrote:Its also just as much fun to be in the observation booth as it is to be the shooter and see the steel targets get THWACKED! Even my slow moving bullet has some thump left at that range.

Any idea what the velocity is 'way out there' with that kind of gun/load...?

Putting a similar bullet into my ballistics program I get something like 600 fps and 360 ft-lbs, with a momentum of 40 lb-ft/sec - a pretty good thump from a 485 grain bullet, to be sure...! Looks like if you sight in at 1,000 yards for your zero, you'd only have to aim about 200 ft high at 1538 yards.

This sounds like great fun if you have the long range to shoot safely; more fun than a CheyTac or other high-end modern gear, in a way. I'm sure either one is fun though. Closest I get is playing with the rainbow-trajectory of a 22 LR sometimes out at 500 yards, but there isn't that long delay before you hear the 'thump' that you guys get.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:17 pm

Tutt, trying to get pictures to post..believe these are pieces of my $1 M71/84...

Amazing metal work for the era.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:31 pm

CowboyTutt wrote:...I ... have a load that is extremely consistent (thanks Mic!) with a 10 shot string showing an ES of 17 fps and a SD of 5. Average velocity with the 485 grain bullet is 1170 fps. I don't think I could get that kind of consistency with BP...
-Tutt

Don't be so sure. You'd be surprised at what numbers you can get using a good, consistent loading procedure.

My run of the mill numbers simply a volume load of 85grs of Goex 2F for the .40-90SBN are an ES of 17.28 & an SD of 8.71. That's for a 350 grain bullet with an ave. fps of 1576. I think that if I used a better powder (like Swiss), and the new drop tube for loading, those could be better.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:36 pm

Well Griff, you may be right. I honestly don't know. But for reasons of corrosion I simply don't want to go there. I hope you can make the next event as you were very welcome there. You fit in just great! -Tutt

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:42 pm

Thanks Tutt, I'll have to keep my eye on their calendar. BTW, "corrosion"? A squirt of hot water, dry swabs, an oil soaked swab, and you're done. Cleaner, easier and with NO leading issues, far better than smokeless.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:45 pm

You fellows should know that Tutt doesn't have anything "usual" in his battery.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:01 pm

Yikes, OS that is probably (OK, its just plain true, I admit it!) true!

I asked Mic what the terminal velocity was with my bullet and load since I did not have a BC for that bullet. He responded thusly:

Dear Andy,

About 750 fps at that elevation but with the warm conditions that we were shooting in, probably closer to 800 fps. So, it is more than twice as heavy as a 45 Automatic Hardball and traveling just as fast as modern 45 Auto 230-grain factory loads are actually launched -- yes, serious punch! If we had BC data we could do much better on the terminal velocity prediction but 800 fps is very close. Once any such bullet drops into the sub-sonic range, it just goes on an on!

Take care,

Mic

I am seriously lucky to have such a good knowledgeable friend!!!! Egads!!!

-Tutt

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:23 pm

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:42 pm

Don, on a ten shot string??? An ES of 2??? Really??? -Tutt

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:51 pm

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:00 am

I have never heard of a 2 fps ES in a 10 shot string in my whole life. Maybe you should write a book. -Tutt

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:11 am

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:34 am

I have a book by Mike Venturino, Shooting Buffalo Guns of the Old West. He has a section in there dealing with technical details of loading BP to obtain extreme consistency in E.S., and trajectory. Can't recall what his E.S.'s are.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:01 am

MLV's book is a handy reference, but so much of it's information is pretty old, a number of the powders they talk about are no longer available, and some of the technique has fallen from favor, and scores that would win a match when that book was new, are quite a ways behind of what they are now.
Would be good if he would go into that , update it and do the "second edtion".