32/20 loads in the 1873 Winchester

[carbluesnake]

I have an 1873 win. made in 1919, chambered in 32/20. I was thinking of shooting some ammo I loaded for my Colt Police Positive in the 73. The load is 100 gr. jacketed with 9.5gr. 2400 behind it. Better safe than sorry, I thought I would get everyone's thoughts on the matter.

[QCI Winchesters]

Generally, I think any load safe in revolvers should be okay in the '73, but I will check my references to be sure. Personally, I have never fired a jacketed bullet from either my '73 or my '92, so I am not up to speed on jacketed bullets in that calibre.

[AJMD429]

Generally, I think any load safe in revolvers should be okay in the '73, but I will check my references to be sure.

Be careful, though; I have seen load data for 32-20, "modern gun, ruger-only" loads that would technically be revolver loads, but are probably pretty hot.

[KirkD]

The original ballistics for the black powder 32-20 cartridge used in the original Model 1873's sent a 115 grain cast bullet out the barrel at 1,225 fps. Typically, 2400 powder loaded to give the same velocity with the same bullet will give slightly lower peak pressure than FFFg. In my own load development with 2400, I found that 7.2 grains of 2400 gave me 1,215 fps with a cast bullet. Jacketed bullets will give different results. 8 grains gave me 1,386 fps. Given this, I would say that your load is too hot for an original Model 1873. I would ease it down to about 7.2 grains of 2400. That being said, pressures and velocity can vary significantly depending upon groove diameter/throat diameter/bullet diameter and alloy. Still, I think your load is too hot for an original '73.

[jdad]

Your load is waaay too hot.
Open this link and scroll down, to "32-20". These are reduced power loads. http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

I've never loaded a 115gr bullet with less than 8grs of 2400, but Kirk has some good data.

[QCI Winchesters]

I would think that, if the load is too hot for the '73, it should not be used in that little Colt, either. Personally, I would not even use jacketed bullets in either of them.

[carbluesnake]

I am responding not to be argumentative, but to provoke a little thought. I took the 9.5gr. 2400 load from the 44th Edition Lyman Reloading Handbook. Note, this is for a 100 gr. bullet, not a 115 gr. Lyman gives as a factory duplication load for the 100gr. jacketed bullet 9.3 gr. 2400 powder for a velocity of 1278 fps. They list a maximum load of 2400 at 11.5 gr. They also list a 115 gr. cast bullet with a starting and max. load of 2400 of 8.0 and 11.0. I know what you are telling me, and I am listening; after all, it's my 73, and I really don't want to blow it up. It is way too nice for that.

[w30wcf]

The Lyman 49th Edition shows the following:
SAAMI MAP - 16,000 CUP
100 gr jacketed - 8.5 / 2400 / 1,280 fps / 15,800 CUP
115 gr cast ........ 8.3 / 2400 / 1,239 fps / 15,000 CUP

Interesting that the heavier 115 gr ( 311008) which is even seated a bit deeper generated less pressure with just .2 grs less powder.
That being the case it would appear that the powder charge for a 100 gr cast bullet could be a bit higher than the 100 gr J. charge and still generate less than 16,000 CUP.

Just my opinion, but since the .32 W.C.F. is much smaller than it's two older brothers (.38 & .44 W.C.F.) total pressure on the rifle is lower so ...........

w30wcf

[KirkD]

... Lyman gives as a factory duplication load for the 100gr. jacketed bullet 9.3 gr. 2400 powder for a velocity of 1278 fps.

That is why I always chronograph my loads. There is no way 9.3 gr. of 2400 under a 100 grain bullet is going to give a paltry 1,278 fps. I would think that 1,450 to 1,500 fps would be what a chronograph will show. I know a fellow with a Model 1892 32-20 that has a bulged chamber, so it is possible to stoke the 32-20 a little too high.

[QCI Winchesters]

I wonder if the bulged chamber might have been from using compressed BP with air space left under the bullet? Myself, I have not played with the .32WCF for so long, I can't add much to the discussion. I did experiment with duplicating the WHV loads early on, but have not loaded anything but BP and 115gr. cast bullets for several years now. Accurate, hit raccoons hard, and make a neat "SNAP" when they go off. Not a bang or a boom, but a snap! Also, BP burns so well in the tiny case, the brass stays pretty clean, and it seals so well, no back blast at all so the action stays clean, too.

[JerryB]

QCI, it is my understanding that the bulged chamber 1892 32wcf that Kirk referred to came from a load of Unique and a 115 grain cast bullet, not really an over load just a tad to heavy.

[QCI Winchesters]

QCI, it is my understanding that the bulged chamber 1892 32wcf that Kirk referred to came from a load of Unique and a 115 grain cast bullet, not really an over load just a tad to heavy.

That is pretty sad. Lots of old guns get wrecked using Unique, there seems to be a school of thought that Unique is the greatest powder ever for use in old guns, and reloaders kind of throw caution to the wind when using it. Lots of the same guys think that their gun will instantly turn red and crumble to dust should they fire a single cartridge loaded with black powder. Funny thing is, the residue from Unique is about as hygroscopic as BP residue, and will cause rust if left in the bore.

[Sixgun]

That load won't hurt it none. The rifle is one of the last made with better steels, tighter tolerances, and the bullet weight your using is lighter than standard. As long as the gun is good and tight, I would shoot them. I just would not make a habit of it. 100 or 2 would be ok. I would be more concerned with using that load in the Colt than in the Winchester. It would be fine in SAA, but marginal in the PPS.

As for people destroying guns with Unique, well, that's just it....the people doing the destroying. Properly loaded, it's fine. But it only takes a grain or two to drastically raise pressures.---6

[QCI Winchesters]

That load won't hurt it none. The rifle is one of the last made with better steels, tighter tolerances, and the bullet weight your using is lighter than standard. As long as the gun is good and tight, I would shoot them. I just would not make a habit of it. 100 or 2 would be ok. I would be more concerned with using that load in the Colt than in the Winchester. It would be fine in SAA, but marginal in the PPS.

As for people destroying guns with Unique, well, that's just it....the people doing the destroying. Properly loaded, it's fine. But it only takes a grain or two to drastically raise pressures.---6

Good point on that, Sixgun. 1919 it likely has nickel steel in the barrel, strength is probably close to the Uberti guns at least. And yes, I would not use that load in the Colt PP, either. They are not known for great strength.

As for guys wrecking guns with Unique, I read on another forum where a guy was wanting advice on loading for a vintage revolver; "use Unique, you can't blow a gun up using Unique, the safest powder to use in antiques" or some such baloney. Probably written by a guy that only loads .357 or something. I have read similar stuff on various forums, also others that imply the same characteristics to Trailboss.

[Sixgun]

QCI Winchester,
I hear ya on the internet garble! Unique has the same chemical makeup as Bullseye but is coated a bit more to slow it down. Any gun, modern or old can easily be blown up with Unique. --------6

[bubba15301]

i load 9.0 gr s 2400 with a 120gr cast bullet in an 1889 marlin

[carbluesnake]

Bubba have you chronographed that 9.0 gr of 2400 and the 120 bullet? I shot my PPS with those 9.5 2400 loads today and they certainly do not seem high psi. Primers look rather mild. I loaded this stuff back in June, 1996, so maybe 2400 has changed since then.

[bubba15301]

Bubba have you chronographed that 9.0 gr of 2400 and the 120 bullet? I shot my PPS with those 9.5 2400 loads today and they certainly do not seem high psi. Primers look rather mild. I loaded this stuff back in June, 1996, so maybe 2400 has changed since then.

i havent chronographed them , iwill have to do that

[missionary5155]

Greetings
An issue of higher pressures with jacketed bullets is the hardness of that jacket. Friction is at least 3x that of a cast boolit. More resistence in actually moving into the rifling raises pressure faster. Higher pressure raises burn rate of any powder. Thus you have a compounded increase in pressure.
Now always remember the toggle linkage system and the "soft metal frame". That is the weak spot. They will give to repeated hammering of too high of pressure.
I would not consider to ever shoot jacketed abusions in any barrel made before 1910. I shoot a 2nd model regular when up north there and have not seen any micrometer measured barrel wear using only my cast bullets.
Head the warnings. Those toggles will collapse and the frames do stretch. There are custom (extra long) 1873 toggle makers out there who are kept busy for some reason.
If you need a 32-20 with more power get a Marlin. Get a winchester 1892. Get a Savage bolt rifle and blast away. But highly consider cast bullets for a life time of barrel service.
Mike in Peru

[QCI Winchesters]

Greetings
An issue of higher pressures with jacketed bullets is the hardness of that jacket. Friction is at least 3x that of a cast boolit. More resistence in actually moving into the rifling raises pressure faster. Higher pressure raises burn rate of any powder. Thus you have a compounded increase in pressure.
Now always remember the toggle linkage system and the "soft metal frame". That is the weak spot. They will give to repeated hammering of too high of pressure.
I would not consider to ever shoot jacketed abusions in any barrel made before 1910. I shoot a 2nd model regular when up north there and have not seen any micrometer measured barrel wear using only my cast bullets.
Head the warnings. Those toggles will collapse and the frames do stretch. There are custom (extra long) 1873 toggle makers out there who are kept busy for some reason.
If you need a 32-20 with more power get a Marlin. Get a winchester 1892. Get a Savage bolt rifle and blast away. But highly consider cast bullets for a life time of barrel service.
Mike in Peru

His 1873 was made in 1919, so I would THINK the steel was the same as that used in 1892's, etc. The barrel, at least, should be nickel steel, even if not marked as such. I doubt that a few jacketed bullets would do any harm. My 1873 in .38WCF, made in 1890, gets fired only with cast bullets and BP. My 1907 vintage 1892 in that calibre sees the occasional jacketed factory load, but nothing too hot in the way of handloads. The older calibres have such shallow rifling to begin with, I don't want to risk adding more wear than they have already. My .30WCF's, etc. are used with jacketed bullets all the time.

I agree that there is no point in trying to soup up the '73, if you need more power, get a '92, or use your .30WCF.

[w30wcf]

To each his own on the topic of jacketed bullets in the older guns. Since the barrel steel is much harder than the jacket on a bullet I don't see an issue with using jacketed bullets.

In addition to a few thousand cast bullets, I have fired about 700 jacketed bullets through my original '73 (1882) with nary an issue. If there has been any barrel wear my micrometer can't detect it.

W30wcf

[Canuck Bob]

My new Winoku 32-20 is real strong but the 32-20 is a real treat to shoot at around factory speed. Originally Paco's writing seemed the way to go. Almost deer rifle power with a case full of powder and a jacketed bullet. However the charm of an antique cartridge loaded like our great grandfathers used them interested me. These days it seems the benefit of using slowish powder that bulks nicely, burns clean, and gives a cast bullet a proper start are more important than anything.

[KirkD]

I agree. I like my 32-20 bullets to come out the barrel at around 1,200 fps. Drops Woodchucks in their tracks. The report is relatively gentle.

[QCI Winchesters]

I agree. I like my 32-20 bullets to come out the barrel at around 1,200 fps. Drops Woodchucks in their tracks. The report is relatively gentle.

Indeed, the factory loads drop coons like they were pole axed, and I know of a few guys that killed deer cleanly with them. If you need more power, use the .30WCF.

[Canuck Bob]

I still smile everytime I pull a round from my factory box. The only centerfire rifle I own that comes with a factory lead bullet! There is just something right about a 92, 32-20, spitting lead.

It was Dirk in an earlier post that set me on this trail.