OT - Need for battle pistols?

[rjohns94]

So this is the idea that kept me up all night. Say you carry a compact major caliber pistol as your CCW. Maybe even a sub-compact. In my case, I have taken to carrying a Rohrbaugh 9mm, 7 shots of 115 grain Gold Dot punch. Now I carry this pistol everywhere and at night, I have it sitting bedside. When I am in the house, its in my pocket. When I am driving its in my pocket and when I am out and about it is in my pocket. Everywhere it goes. For you it might be a micro Glock or Kahr.

Here is my question: If that micro pistol is with you always, do you really need the battle pistol? If I have problems while away from the house, this pistol will be called upon to perform its function. If its in my house, the 20 some feet I will be engaging the targets is easily taken in by this pistol. Do I need the Sig 220 in 45 that is at home if this pistol is the one at hand 24/7? How about you? Do you cash in your CCW at home and go to the bigger combat pistol for home defence? If so why? If not, What do you need the combat pistol for.

In the recent post of bug out bags, many had the larger pistol in that bag. Why? Will you only have that pistol with you? Will the CCW be back up to the larger pistol? Or will you just have that pistol?

We are told that the pistol is used to fight your way to your rifle/shotgun. If that is the case, what use is the battle pistol if you always have the CCW with you?

Not counting the enjoyment factors here of shooting a larger pistol or collecting or such. If your battle pistol is your CCW, then this question probably is not for you unless you want to uncover the other side of this, what good is a micro pistol.

Was up all night on this one. Help me out.

[Ysabel Kid]

Mike -

You need to get more sleep!

You covered my response near the end - the "what does 'need' have to do with it?" I enjoy shooting and collecting a variety of firearms, so that is my "need". But I see your point. If the handgun is just a tool for someone, then what they carry - whether it be a full size or a micro - should be enough to get them to that rifle and/or shotgun in case of an emergency. In a major caliber, the trade off on sight radius and capacity is offset by portability and practice at potential and realistic combat distances really negates the need for the larger gun. That being said, I often carry a full-size 1911 - but it is uncomfortable to do so all day long, so my Para P12.45 gets most of the carry.

I guess - heaven forbid - if I only could have one, I'd opt for the P12.45 because I can carry it concealed in a wider range of clothing (i.e. - less of it when it is hot down here). It's hard enough to carry that in shorts and a t-shirt; it is darn near impossible to carry a full-size 1911 in those conditions (at least on my frame).

Still, in a bug-out bag - one prepacked or able to be finished packing in minutes - I'd throw in a couple/few full size handguns. Something that eats .45 ACP, .40 S&W and 9mm - the rounds I am likely to scrounge up if the going gets really bad...

[Tycer]

Why do you carry only one gun?

One is none. Two is one. Three is better.

I think Clint Smith says this.

How many mags do you carry? Say you fall and strip the bottom plate off the one in the gun. Got a back up?

Buy a second Rohrbaugh 9mm and carry them both.

If you get into a situation and your friend knows how to shoot, toss her one and you're now tactical.

[Comal Forge]

Beware the man with one gun - he probably knows how to use it...

[Hobie]

Do what you want as long as you can.

Battle pistols are nearly as anachronistic as battle axes... Just sayin'...

[big bear]

Do what you want as long as you can.

Battle pistols are nearly as anachronistic as battle axes... Just sayin'...

You should make a bumper sticker with that, it's been my motto for years, never saw it stated so succinctly.....

[sore shoulder]

Well, in general a pistol is not a substitute for a rifle, and a fist is not a substitute for a pistol (I'm not sure what the means, but I like the sound of it ). I sometimes carry a compact due to clothing restrictions. Lets face it, if it were socially acceptable to carry a rifle everywhere, how many here would? So, don't abandon the larger pistol just because you carry a compact for convenience and comfort. You wouldn't abandon your rifle just because you never carry it.

[nemhed]

I just recently replaced my Colt Detective Special with a S&W Model 442 (Airweight J-Frame). The 442 weighs about half as much as the old Colt so I'm very pleased with the change. This new revolver resides in my front righthand pocket in a Desantes pocket holster, or is right next to my bed if I don't happen to be wearing my pants. My rational is that it is the gun I carry when I'm not expecting trouble, if I were expecting trouble I would carry my Glock 22 with at least two extra mags. So in other words my G22 sits lonely and unused most of the time. If I need to grab a gun at home, I reach for a rifle or a shotgun depending on the job at hand. In my mind a handgun is there for the times when you can't carry or use a long gun. All that being said, I won't get rid of the Glock, it is superior to the little S&W in all ways except when it comes to concealed carry.

[Hobie]

I just recently replaced my Colt Detective Special with a S&W Model 442 (Airweight J-Frame). The 442 weighs about half as much as the old Colt so I'm very pleased with the change. This new revolver resides in my front righthand pocket in a Desantes pocket holster, or is right next to my bed if I don't happen to be wearing my pants. My rational is that it is the gun I carry when I'm not expecting trouble, if I were expecting trouble I would carry my Glock 22 with at least two extra mags. So in other words my G22 sits lonely and unused most of the time. If I need to grab a gun at home, I reach for a rifle or a shotgun depending on the job at hand. In my mind a handgun is there for the times when you can't carry or use a long gun. All that being said, I won't get rid of the Glock, it is superior to the little S&W in all ways except when it comes to concealed carry.

Yep, that's about right. Mine is a 642...

[nemhed]

Hobie,
Yeah, I think the airweights are pretty sweet and a real bargain compared to the airlites.

By the way, just to clarify my previous post, I was speaking about self defense situations. I'm not knocking anyone that chooses to use a handgun over a long gun for hunting.

[Old Ironsights]

I've "downgraded" to "just" carrying my SP101 and my NAA Guardian .32 rather than the G27.

Whereever I am, however many rounds I have will never be enough, so I figure I'll just stick to my favorite reloadable cartridge rather than leave a bunch of expensive .40S&W brass all over the ground to ID me.

I don't carry a handgun to participate in a gunfight, I carry a handgun to cover my retreat until I can get to a bigger gun.

[kimwcook]

nemhed said:

My rational is that it is the gun I carry when I'm not expecting trouble, if I were expecting trouble I would carry my Glock 22 with at least two extra mags. So in other words my G22 sits lonely and unused most of the time. If I need to grab a gun at home, I reach for a rifle or a shotgun depending on the job at hand.

I carry because I don't know when there will be trouble. And to think my only defense is five rounds from a J frame without reloads doesn't give me much comfort. Especially with multiple threats. I always carry a stripper as back up when I'm packing my J frame (dept. policy if packing it as my BUG).

I look at things a little different being an LEO. As someone kind of already stated, a pistol only gets me to my rifle/shotgun.

I also carry a full size pistol/revolver for it's extended sight radius. Under stress you'd be surprised as to how many rounds won't hit the target at 7-20 yds. when you're out of gas and breathing heavy. Tachy psyche can totally destroy your calm at the range bench, or off hand, firing at a paper target.

For a personal test, run 100 yds., pull your sidearm and fire for groups on a target ranging from 7-20 yds. Dynamic practice is a real eye opener.

[Rusty]

I think it's not so important what you carry as the fact that you do carry. A 629 is great but not when it's in the car and you're not. I found that out the hard way several years ago. The 640 is much easier to carry all the time.

[Malamute]

"We are told that the pistol is used to fight your way to your rifle/shotgun...."


I understand the sentiment expressed in this idea, but don't really agree with it. A pistol is often all you're going to have access to in an emergency, no matter if you have your rifle out in the truck/car all the time or whatever. It simply won't be available when you need it. So, you HAVE a pistol on you, and you would run out to your vehicle and get a rilfe, and run back into a place with a nut shooting or robbing the place? Sounds like a good way to get others there to think you are part of the problem, not the solution, AND be wasting time when you have a tool on you that moment. Not all problems will be that simple, but having a rifle on hand all the time isn't easy. ANY pistol is better than ANY rilfe when the pistol is what you have one you when you really need it. A smaller gun is more likely to be on you. Larger pistols are better tools in general, but it isnt always convenient to have one. Both have their uses.

Here are some thoughts on the matter from someone that has BTDT. His experiences and issues may not be yours, but it's good food for thought.
There are 2 levels of posts from Ferfal, the second has much more detail and was an update of the first, and contains some good information. It's well worth the time to read it all.

http://www.survivalmonkey.com/forum/sho ... 0eb&t=2715

[homefront]

I carry a .38 DS, like Nemhed did.
I'm rethinking my choice to something higher cap., maybe a Glock 19, with a spare mag.
In the years I've been carrying, I've been very fortunate to never have had to call on my weapon. I carry religiously here in Pa due to several unfortunate events that occurred when I worked in NYC.
The revolver has always given me some peace of mind. Up until now, I figured if I can't do it with six shots.... The more the world changes, the more I feel a need for greater firepower - our personal protection needs have changed.
Given that a concealed carry weapon needs to be compact and light(er), it will always have some slight disadvantage to a full sized sidearm. It would be good to have a full-sized pistol waiting for you when you can get to it, either in the B.O.B. or at home. At that point, you would be armed with two handguns, and what is normally your main carry gun becomes your backup.

[nemhed]

I weighed my options when I got the J-frame. I feel more confident with the small hammerless revolver always going "bang" when required versus a small auto pistol, just my personal preference, I'm not trying to sell J-frames for S&W. I do carry a Bianchi Speed Strip with 6 extra rounds. I cringe at the thought of having to stand and fight against a better armed opponent with just my J-frame, but it is the most gun I can get away with carrying 24-7, and still keep my job. In my 43 years on this earth I've never had to defend my life with a firearm, hopefully that trend can continue for another 50-60 years.

[BAGTIC]

The likelihood of anyone ever 'needing' a gun is about as slim as that of winning the lottery. If it ever arises any gun will probably suffice as most 'gun involved' situations are resolved by the gun's deterrent effect without a shot being fired or at least a hit scored.

Far more people die as a result of not wearing their seat belts than of not having 'enough' gun. Having a gun, any gun, is far more important than what kind od gun one has. Most of the punks against whom one might need to defend oneself don't know enough about guns to make a distinction about how effective they might or might not be... they are afterall guns.

[Old Ironsights]

... There are 2 levels of posts from Ferfal, the second has much more detail and was an update of the first, and contains some good information. It's well worth the time to read it all.

http://www.survivalmonkey.com/forum/sho ... 0eb&t=2715

I read all his stuff quite a while ago - and hispoints are well taken.

That's why when/if there is total societal collapse, I will make my 9mm SMG and be good.

Until then, I think my SP101 will probably suffice.

[Rusty]

More important than it goes bang is that fact that it goes bang, bang, bang and so on. The first shot is almost always a given. I too will take my S&W 640.

[Blackhawk]

Practice, practice, practice.

Bout all I can add to what's already been said.

Johnny

[fknipfer]

I don't carry anything and don't think I ever will. I wouldn't mind having one in the car for travel. That could be a real problem as to what states honor each others CCW. If I was to carry one I would use my German Makarov 9mm. Not that its to heavy or to light but it shoots so well and straight. Never had a pistol I could shoot with like it.

fknipfer

[Old Ironsights]

I don't carry anything and don't think I ever will. ...

Why not? Just curious. I know it's a personal choice, and as long as the choice to NOT remains personal I'm OK with it, but I genuinely don't understand it.

[cas]

These days when I CCW, the gun is usually a SIG P220.


So where does this leave me?

[Sixgun]

642 is always with me, inside and out. Its not so much the gun you are using as the main thing is not to let anybody get the drop on you. Nobody wants to get shot, even with a .22. Be aware of your surroundings and keep your back to the wall. Noah Zark told me a story a couple of weeks ago that saved his butt. He was aware of his surroundings and saw it coming.-----------Sixgun

[rjohns94]

CAS, I think that is what I was saying in the latter paragraphs. You already carry a large battle pistol so this argument is mute unless you want to discuss why we should carry mini pistols or revolvers. I own a Sig 220 Elite and I have a rail system with the light and laser built in. I also have the night sights. I shoot very well with it and carry it alot in the winter just because I like the pistol. But I am finding that having 7 shots of 9mm and extra mags on me ALL the time, makes more sense. The pistol goes with me everywhere and I don't have to worry about answering a door or knowing or guessing where the trouble is coming from. You could probably argue the points and you are certainly welcome and encouraged to do so. No one has the answer here, I'm just wondering why I would possibly use the .45 if I am carrying this pistol 24/7. In my home, it is more than accurate to shoot down the steps, or across the room and no one knows that I have it on me. I just avoid metal detectors. I can't do that with my SIG during the summer or spring or while on the bike or ......

[alnitak]

I have to agree with Malamute...I don't believe that in civilian situations, a pistol is only for fighting to your rifle. As in the robbery/shooting scenario, most likely it will occur in a small enclosed space -- not out in the open. A rifle wouldn't be practical to deploy in tight quarters -- you're not as maneuverable, it's more easily grabbed by the BG, can't shoot fore and aft as easily, and certainly not as concealable nor convenient (e.g., weight) to carry. I think a handgun serves its own purpose. As far as the battle pistol goes, it seems to me it traditionally has three advantages -- reliability (tested build, steel construction, tolerances that won't get mucked up by adverse conditions), capacity and accuracy/shootability (greater weight and longer sight radius supports better balance, reduced recoil, accuracy, and faster follow-up shots; plus the ability to accessorize with rails, lights, etc.). If size and weight weren't an issue, I would carry a battle pistol all the time. I think in today's world, we are more likely to encounter multiple BGs (hence the need for greater capacity), and the possibility exists (in terrorist/nut job situations) that a longer shot will be required. At home, I would reach for my battle pistol for home defense (for the above reasons). Having said that, if my PM9 had a 15 round capacity, I would probably not even bother with a battle pistol, given the ease of carry and its accuracy over the distances I would expect to use it. If ever the Stuff Hits The Fan, you can bet that one of my first priorities is to use my PM9 to get his battle pistol (and rifle for that matter), to put me on more even ground with the "invaders."

[Rod WMG]

I don't intend to fight my way back to my rifle because, if I did, it'd have to be in my veeHICKLE. I don't have a veeHICKLE with a trunk anymore, so I have no good place to hide it. I don't think I'd likely be close enough to home to make it there.

If I can get to a vehicle, I probably can get away without having to retrieve a bigger gun.

Also, if I didn't expect at least the possibility of trouble, I wouldn't carry anything. The three or four times I've needed a gun for defense I was not carrying once when I should have been (wasn't expecting trouble!) and the other times I was underage for legal carry and it was otherwise illegal.

The best thing for me is to carry the pistol I can best conceal which I have the most confidence in within that limitation. It won't be my favorite arm because I can't conceal that, but it will hopefully save someone's life if needed.

[FWiedner]

Why do I use a mouse gun out on the street and a weapon of war in the home?

If they bug me out on the street, I want them to leave me alone.

If they dare to come into my home, I want them dead.

Call it "making a statement".

[TedH]

Why do I use a mouse gun out on the street and a weapon of war in the home?

If they bug me out on the street, I want them to leave me alone.

If they dare to come into my home, I want them dead.

Call it "making a statement".

Precisely.

I always have a PPK in my pocket when I'm not in the house. Inside, I am comfortable with a 1911 close at hand.

[505stevec]

I use a S&W 6906 with two spare mags for CCW everyday this weapon is the most cofortable i have now and most practical for concealment. I used to have a Beretta .25 auto that I carried as a second or sometimes third gun but I gave that to my daughter. With new concealment holsters however it is very conceavable to carry a large pistol most of the time with little problem. The main thing here is that you must practice with any and all guns you MAY carry. Do not think you are carrying the DEATH RAY. Always carry reloads. Dont think about the statistics that say 3.5 shots per gun fight. yours may take 15 or 25 shots. I have read gun writers that advocate a second and even a third CCW pistol. To this I say if you can and feel comfortable do it. I would thing however that if your town or part of town is not regularly violent then you may want to consider that after "after action" reports of a fight you have gotten into. The police are going to have a very diferent oppinion of someone carrying one gun for defence as opposed to three. just MHO

[tman]

a keltec .32acp in your pocket is all you need unless you are in a combat zone or a peace officer. if your looking to engage a fight, bring a m4 with 200 rounds of ammunition. the puny .32 in the face will stop your attacker RIGHT NOW. practice, practice, practice, with what you got right now. even the cheapest .32 fmj in the eyes will stop the biggest, baddest, drug and sterioded attacker. make sure your gun goes bang with the ammo u use EVERYTIME,

[Mich Hunter]

I like my guns like I like my women. Variety!!!!

[Rexster]

A micro pistol takes great care to shoot well, whereas a hand-filling battle pistol with good, visible sights can be shot well much more quickly. Micro pistols are also more subject to the tremors that we get when a big load of adrenaline has just been dumped into the bloodstream. All of this is regardless of magazine/cylinder capacity. A Colt SAA with five shots is still a battle pistol!

The statement that "a pistol is what you use to fight your way back to your rifle" is witty, but only applies to scenarios where one has a choice. Most of us simply cannot have a rifle or shotgun near enough to matter when some deranged individual decides to go out in his twisted idea of a blaze of glory at a school, restaurant, or mall.

Those who have mentioned alertness/awareness are absolutely right. No amount of whiz-bang weaponry will be effective if the mighty warrior is not paying attention, and someone walks up to him and uses bare hands to pop his head like a pimple.

As for the size/type of pistol one is carrying, we all must choose our comfort level. A 5-shot J-frame will indeed handle most foreseeable civilian encounters, but if you are picking up little Suzie from school, and a lunatic steps into the school yard with an AK, between you and Suzie, and he is forty yards away, what will you do? Ever fired your Rohrbaugh or J-frame at 40 yards? Yes, a micro pistol can be fired effectively at amazingly distant targets, but a battle pistol can handle the task more expediently.

[Hillbilly]

I tend to carry a SW 65 3 inch these days... loaded with 125gr Magtech softpoints. I am fat enough the round butt blends into my love handles with a good pancake holster.

I am very conversant with the 1911 format but I just dont shoot mine enough anymore to feel current...back to the SW for me at this stage of the game.

I keep a Tarus 85 around too.

Never thought about fighting my way back to the rifle too much as a CCW person... the handgun is to deal with the immediate threat and (hope to god it never comes to this) end it.

That being said ...show up on the ranch making trouble and a short 12guage and a .30 cal Winchester are in your future.

Hill

[Hobie]

I would never think to TELL anyone else what they "needed". I would never think to ask anyone what I "needed". I will say that I don't think that in the current legal circumstances a firearm is anything more than a tool to stop an attack and if outside the home to enable one to break contact and get to a safe place and contact the police. Out in rural areas the rifle is more a vermin control or deer-of-opportunity tool than for fighting off gangs of street thugs. If it would ever come to that, you'd best have a bunch of friends, very good friends.

[shawn_c992001]

What gun would I carry? Something I was comfortable with and shot well.

What guns do I carry? A Glock 20 (10mm 15rds.) a Taurus Tracker 4" 44 Mag. These guns actually fit well in the hip pockets of carpenter jeans. Beside the bed on top of the night stand is a Blackhawk 357Mag with double ball ammo and 125gr XTP's in staggered fashion. In the corner is an 870 with 00 Buck. In the truck is an AR-15 in 6.8SPC.

Just my $.02.

[Swampman]

For most folks pistols are useless. They can't hit anything with them. In a bugout situation you need a hunting weapon. A single shot rifle or shotgun being the very best choice.

This isn't about playing Rambo. It's about staying alive.

[Quick Karl]

Under pillow = 1911 45ACP w/ 8-rnds 185gr Corbon JHP, spare mag very close by.

If pelosi gets serious I head to safe for Benelli M1Super90 12-ga or Colt AR-15 Govt Carbine as may be required, each of which always sport a full magazine.

CCW = HK USP Compact 9mm w/ 14-rnds 125gr Corbon JHP, spare 13-rnd mag in pocket - always paying attention to my surroundings and keeping my back away from as many folks as possible.

Always be prepared.

[Swampman]

I don't carry anything and don't think I ever will. I wouldn't mind having one in the car for travel. That could be a real problem as to what states honor each others CCW. If I was to carry one I would use my German Makarov 9mm. Not that its to heavy or to light but it shoots so well and straight. Never had a pistol I could shoot with like it.

fknipfer

I agree the insurmountable legal hassels make carrying a gun a big PITA. In the car on trips I sometimes carry my S&W Combat Masterpiece in a zippered case under the seat. I'm not afraid to die (there are days I'd welcome it) so I'm not paranoid. The only good reason to go armed, is to protect your loved ones. I carry a 4" folding knife everywhere I go. It's all I need. I will not break the law knowingly. I have to set an example for others.

[wilko]

For most folks pistols are useless. They can't hit anything with them. In a bugout situation you need a hunting weapon. A single shot rifle or shotgun being the very best choice.

This isn't about playing Rambo. It's about staying alive.

exactly ! my home defence gun is and always will be a shotgun with some #4 shot.

[Quick Karl]

If you pack CCW and you do not realize the mammoth responsibility you have undertaken, you are seriously foolish. Nevertheless, a fact in our society is that the unexpected can happen anywhere, at any time, and I could never bear the thought of being unable to protect myself or anyone I love for lack of shooting back.

[tman]

it's okay to ask what you need. a lot of knowledgable people on this forum. a lot of good opinions. read them all and try to decide what's right for you. my humble opion is to use whatever you got. practice until you are confident of placing your slug into the kill zone everytime. this is much more critical than caliber, ballistics, or what it does in ballistic jell. good luck

[Pathfinder]

Beware the man with one gun - he probably knows how to use it...

There be genious in that there statement.

Additionally something to consider is that IF you are talking "bug out" then you need to be considering a weapon that will accept a caliber that is easily found.

Such as
.22
9mm
45
Maybe .38, 357 or 44mag

These are prolifically found across this nation. If it's a bad times scenario you will probably need to replenish stock. And theoretically that might not be by going to the gun shop or through the reloading process.

It might mean scrounging or stealing it.

In the world of long gun that would suggest:
12ga
410
20ga
.22
.223
Maybe 30.06 or .308

Think about those rounds/ calibers that are common and plentiful.

Good luck finding 454Casul and those other fun but useless (in a bad times scenario) calibers. They will be few and far between.

In my "what if" scenario, I will bug out with my 12ga and a rifle and handgun in a caliber that is common to the military. There is a good chance that in the suggested worst case scenario I will be able to "find" my needs.

[Lastmohecken]

As far as CCW goes, I have carried and I do still carry everything from a .22mag NAA mini-revolver to a full blown 5 inch 1911 in 45ACP, with several guns in the middle, like a my model 60 Smith revolver in .38, Kel-32 auto, Browning High Power in 40cal, Light weight Commander, even a Colt Peacemaker clone in 45 long colt. I shoot all of them, and carry what I am confortable with at the time, preceived threat level anticipated, season of the year, etc. But sometimes I don't carry anything but a big knife, which I always have.

However, in the home, I want firepower and knockdown power, so I keep a 5 inch 1911, as my ready gun, but also keep a couple of shotguns with 00 Buck. My shotgun of choice is an old Browning A5. But if my safe is open, I can get to a few loaded rifles, like my Browning BLR or model 94 Winchester 30/30.

Bug out guns? I already live in the country, where in the heck am I going to go? I sure as heck am not getting on the highway, and getting stranded somewhere, that I have no resources to fall back on, or friends to connect with. But of course all sorts of senerios can be bought up, usually by the arm chair commaandos, so if it really came to it that I had to leave then of course, common calibers, like the .22 long rifle, .223, .308 would probably be best, maybe a shotgun, but you can't carry a lot of heavy ammo on foot, which speaks strongly for a .22 of some kind, and maybe one larger gun, and plenty of ammo. Which just might leave the .223, and .22 as top choices, and rely on good tatics to advoid most contacts and or confrontations. Of course as a member of a small group, one would have more options.

[BAGTIC]

If you pack CCW and you do not realize the mammoth responsibility you have undertaken, you are seriously foolish. Nevertheless, a fact in our society is that the unexpected can happen anywhere, at any time, and I could never bear the thought of being unable to protect myself or anyone I love for lack of shooting back.

We are all more likely to be killed or seriously injured by a drunk driver than by an assailant. What are we to do, drive around in tanks, stay home?

Life involves some risk, it can never be made absolutely risk free. It is one thing to prepare for the most likely threats but to alway obsess with the worst possible scenario verges on paranoia.

[Old Ironsights]

Do what you want as long as you can.

Battle pistols are nearly as anachronistic as battle axes... Just sayin'...

I think there may be one new exception to this rule... and that's the funky looking FiveseveN.

That's one crazy pistol. 20rds, recoils like a 22Mag, shoots like a .223.

Be fun to have one of those with a detatchable shoulder stock a/la Mauser...